The Final Blow: The End of Saab

[JCE]

I'm going to say that most Cadillacs from the last 20 years were infact "a pile of dog crap". Most American cars (sport coupes excluded) have been complete crap when compared to Japanese or European cars. Cadillac has only recently in the last 5 years made anything actually worthwhile. For the same reason why I dislike the Viper is why I dislike the XLR/XLR-V--the interior for such an expensive car is absolutely rubbish. The previous STS was a good looking car...but frankly was very sloshy. DTS was just plain ugly and even more sloshy. Seville & Deville from the old school were just awful. The best Cadillac in the last 20 years was an Opel Vectra (Catera). Jeremy Clarkson does have one great point about Cadillac--they are made for pensioners in Florida. They are old people cars or young "rich" wannabe 20-somethings. Don't get me started by the hyped Escalde--the worst SUV of the big three.

You want to know one reason that Europeans dislike Americans and their cars? Americans insisting that they ALWAYS and UNEQUIVACABLY make the best produts...newsflash Americans you do not. Good products are made all across the globe--not just in Europe or America. And on top of that, Americans are always quick to point out the "Eurosnobs" but somehow they forget that Americans are "spoiled brats" conversely. Facts are facts. I don't agree with either comment but that's how it goes.

So in closing unless Cadillac does something to improve their image the brand WILL fail in Europe. Rebadging Saabs, Vauxhalls, or Opels won't cut it--Europeans are very well educated on car lineage...unlike most Americans.

P.S. This was not a personal attack towards anyone--take it as such and you need to go take a cold shower to cool off.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm not going to defend everything that GM has done with Cadillac over the past 20 years, but I still think a lot of you are missing the point...

Cadillacs aren't built to be sold in Germany or Japan, they are built to be sold in the United States and Canada, and thus being countries that have the "luxury" of large open roads, a "sloshy" car fits the bill.

Does that mean that they should be doing it? To some degree yes, as that is what part of their customer base wants, hence the DTS. That said, Cadillac has changed radically in the past 10 years, and no one can deny that. They have gone from a ho-hum American luxury marque that wouldn't be anywhere near the Germans of the era to something that is actually comparable to BMWs, Mercedes-Benzes, etc.

That said, they still aren't BMW or Mercedes-Benz, and quite frankly, I think it is somewhat silly for Europeans to automatically demand that of Cadillac to begin with.

I just ask that you keep things in perspective. Up untill a few years ago, Cadillac was sold almost exclusively in North America, and thus, cars were designed to fit American tastes. Anyone with two brain cells would know that Europeans and Americans have very different tastes in Automobiles, thus the reason why Cadillacs remain extremely popular in the US, and not so in Europe.

---

@JCE3000GT: I think you are overgeneralizing American models over the past few years just a bit. Keep in mind that for quite some time, the only respectable German marque in the US was Mercedes-Benz. Audi and BMW were nearly comical in the 1980s in terms of build quality versus price, and genreally speaking, they didn't gain their reputations untill the '90s. The same can be said of the Japanese marques, of which were only somewhat liked in the '80s, but gained in popularity in the '90s.

...As noted before, I will defend the American car industry to the best of my ability in most situations. I'm not going to get on my soap box and condem any side for anything particular at any point in time, as every country that builds cars has done something stupid at some point in time.

Yes, American automakers have been quite lazy with their designs over the years, relying on the fact that they are American to sell, not necessiarily that they are good cars. But that doesn't mean every single American car built from 1980 to 2000 were piles of crap.

 

[Ghost C]

For example, there as the 4100 aluminum V8, which proved to be as reliable as an Ex-con until about '87. That engine alone probably destroyed brand image for every year they offered it. Yes, his saying that all Cadillacs at the time were cruddy was a little extreme, but it was not simply BMW loving. He had legitimate reasons for saying so.

Yeah, I knew it'd either be the HT-4100 or the V8-6-4. You also have to remember they stopped producing the 4.1 in 1987, and that the 4.5 and 4.9, both engines built on the same nuts and bolts as the 4.1, are one of, and THE lowest warranty claim engines ever built by Cadillac & GM as a whole. The Northstar V8 also carries superb reliability, and until the new Impala SS (Which got that extra 3hp just to trump the N*, me thinks), were the most powerful FWD cars available.

Sure, up until now, Cadillacs haven't been the greatest handling cars in the world, but riding on a stock busted suspension with minor upgrades I still manage to outrun my share of BMW's and MB's in the twisties - Even new ones. People also don't say "________ rides like a Cadillac" because Cadillacs are known for jarring your spinal column when you ride in them, they say it because Cadillacs ride smoother and more comfortably than any other car - Something to think about in a country where we don't have to bend over to pay taxes for our roads.

 

[Poverty]

Since when were Cadillac gas guzzlers in comparison to BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes? I belive in almost every American automotive test in which a comparison was done between a German marque and a Cadillac, nearly every time the Cadillac recieved better gas mileage figures than their counterparts.

I cant comment on those as I dont know. However with the UK press its usually that the american car will beat its european rivals in a straight line, but around corners the others would catch up or beat it, hence "more powerful car = (usually) worse MPG. I dont fully understand how both our countries get theyre MPG results as when you look in our mags the reviewer usually say that cars like the C6 and 300c hemi are major gas guzzlers.

...So are you complaining about an Escalade then? You do realise that it is a full-size SUV, correct? Added to that, how can you seriosuly complain about handeling in a full-size SUV as well?

Im comparing like for like, and going by the reviews ive read the escalade is a bit of a pig, compared to RR's X5's and now the Q7.

As for the XLR and XLR-V, Americans really don't care if you don't like them, as for the most part, they are selling well in the US. Quite frankly, thats all that matters.

Thats not the point, but for the record I couldnt care less if they were selling well or not. All I know is that GM has been trying to flog them over in europe and people dont want them because the MB SL exists.

I could argue with anti-GM folks all day about why their products are still relevant, and still something to consider in their persuit for a new car. Of course, the American perspective on American cars is that of a "stupid barbarian" that wouldn't understand the utter sophistication of an English Bloke, but thats just the way things are!

Ive been looking at corsas with my mom for my sister...(a corsa is a GM product btw)

My mom used to have a pontiac, and my grandmother one of those great big caddillac barges. My mom says she loved the noise of the pontiac but it was a gas guzzler and not even all that fast, this was sometimes in the 80's whilst living in germany.

And to think the British couldn't figure out why Americans wanted to break away 230 years ago!

Incest.

People also don't say "________ rides like a Cadillac" because Cadillacs are known for jarring your spinal column when you ride in them, they say it because Cadillacs ride smoother and more comfortably than any other car

In germany they have a similiar saying. Well not a saying because they dont HAVE to say anything. They just point at the 3 pointed star, and thats good enough for anyone.

 

[Scaff]

That said, they still aren't BMW or Mercedes-Benz, and quite frankly, I think it is somewhat silly for Europeans to automatically demand that of Cadillac to begin with.

To be rather blunt and to the point consumers are not demanding this. Rather its a by-product of how Cadillac are positioning and marketing the cars. If (as a manufacturer) you go out of your way to target particular vehicles as competition, then you have to expect to be compaired to them. Fail to meet the benchmark (which no one has said they do in all areas) and peole are going to point this out.

Blaming consumers for Cadillac's marketing strategy seems a little OTT.

I just ask that you keep things in perspective. Up untill a few years ago, Cadillac was sold almost exclusively in North America, and thus, cars were designed to fit American tastes. Anyone with two brain cells would know that Europeans and Americans have very different tastes in Automobiles, thus the reason why Cadillacs remain extremely popular in the US, and not so in Europe.

Sorry but again Cadilliac have gone out of the way to tell anyone who will listen that the cars they are selling in Europe have been designed and built to meet European tastes and expectations.

The simple reason why Cadillac are not popular in Europe at present (and I've already said this before) has nothing to do with Europeans being anti American cars, being snobs, having chips on our shoulders, etc.

Quite simply at present the brand and its model range are an unknown quanity in a very saturated market, I very much doubt if Cadillac themselves have serious high volume targets set for the next decade (because its likely to take that long to get established).

Personally I wish them every bit of luck with the move, the cars offer a fresh look at car design, and thats something every market needs. However I seriously doubt that Cadillac themselves expect it to be an easy job establishing themselves in Europe.

Yes, American automakers have been quite lazy with their designs over the years, relying on the fact that they are American to sell, not necessiarily that they are good cars. But that doesn't mean every single American car built from 1980 to 2000 were piles of crap.

I don't recall anyone sayiong anything of that nature at all (and if they did they would be quite wrong), from memory all that had been mentioned was that a number of models had been poor). Every market has had its fair share of poor models.

I mean what are you moaning about, its not like Americans had British Leyland/Austin Rover (later MG Rover) to put up with is it? You lot don't know your born sometimes, LOL.

I mean just have a look at some of this stuff (Austin Allegro is a fine start)

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?engineroverv8f.htm

Regards

Scaff

 

[Ghost C]

In germany they have a similiar saying. Well not a saying because they dont HAVE to say anything. They just point at the 3 pointed star, and thats good enough for anyone.

I sincerely hope you're not trying to say the ride of a Mercedes is as good or better than the ride of a Cadillac (Barring the new sporty Cadillacs, which ride like ass, just like their European counterparts).

Please tell me you're not going to go there. I've driven countless models from early 80's to 2005 models of MB's, BMW's, Cadillacs, Lexus', Infiniti. Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to the ride quality of a Cadillac. And any unbiased person or publication will agree with that.

 

[Scaff]

I sincerely hope you're not trying to say the ride of a Mercedes is as good or better than the ride of a Cadillac (Barring the new sporty Cadillacs, which ride like ass, just like their European counterparts).

Please tell me you're not going to go there. I've driven countless models from early 80's to 2005 models of MB's, BMW's, Cadillacs, Lexus', Infiniti. Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to the ride quality of a Cadillac. And any unbiased person or publication will agree with that.

I would just liek to add that you have to take into accountthe road quality that the car is being driven on.

I ridden in a couple of Cadillacs in Europe and while the ride certainly is soft, for some roads it is too soft and the damping at times could certainly be described as poorly controlled.

As far as cars that car ride as well as or arguably better than a Cadillac (please not this is putting price aside), I could mention the Citroen DS (quite simply one of the smoothest and most well controlled rides ever in my opinion), almost any Rolls Royce and most certainly the Mercedes S-class.

Now as I say, in a like for like price bracket, very few would comes close to a Cadillac on a smooth road. However over very broken road surfaces and without a price cap, then I'm sorry, but then certainly the wide automotive world certainly does have a few that would match.


The above claim along with this one from earlier...

but riding on a stock busted suspension with minor upgrades I still manage to outrun my share of BMW's and MB's in the twisties - Even new ones

... do I'm afraid make you sound more than a little biased*. Are you seriously saying that a car with broken suspension (thats how it reads to me) allows you to outrun these cars? If so its rather a bold claim to make, and also a long way from a 'definitive' test of any of these cars.

Making a claim that any car is the 'best' at anything is opening a huge can of worms. Firstly you run into problems of definition, one persons idea of good ride quality can be very different to anothers. Additionally ride quality itself (as part of a cars entire NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) qualities is historically difficult to put defined scores too (I should know I've had to try).

Simply put suspension tuning and set-up is far too complex and involved for anything to be described as the best in anything more than a personal and ultimatly subjective manner.

I mean tastes in ride differ from Europe to teh USA, even when the same car is sold in both markets it is almost unheard of for the suspension set-ups to remain the same. A car that rides like a 'magic carpet' on the majority of American roads, may be turned into a wallowing blob on the average British road.

Regards

Scaff

* Edited to add - I've just followed the links in your sig and yes I can certain see you have a slight passion for Cadillac's. However if the car you are reffering to is the one in your sig then I don't call that minor upgrades at all, a 390lbs (177kg) weight reduction alone is a major mod to make to any car.

 

[Poverty]

I sincerely hope you're not trying to say the ride of a Mercedes is as good or better than the ride of a Cadillac (Barring the new sporty Cadillacs, which ride like ass, just like their European counterparts).

Please tell me you're not going to go there. I've driven countless models from early 80's to 2005 models of MB's, BMW's, Cadillacs, Lexus', Infiniti. Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to the ride quality of a Cadillac. And any unbiased person or publication will agree with that.

Mercedes has been the undisputed king of luxury automotive luxury since time began. Show me a caddy that rides better than the S-class. Hell im not sure whether caddys ride more comfortable than those large citroens.

I grant you that maybe back when caddy made 2 ton coupes they would undoubtly ride smoothly due to the sheer size of them but when comparing like for like Id put my right arm on MB winning.

 

[Ghost C]

I would just liek to add that you have to take into accountthe road quality that the car is being driven on.

I ridden in a couple of Cadillacs in Europe and while the ride certainly is soft, for some roads it is too soft and the damping at times could certainly be described as poorly controlled.

As far as cars that car ride as well as or arguably better than a Cadillac (please not this is putting price aside), I could mention the Citroen DS (quite simply on eof the smoothest and most well controlled rides ever), almost any Rolls Royce and most certainly the Mercedes S-class.

Now as I say, in a like for like price bracket, very few would comes close to a Cadillac on a smooth road. However over very broken road surfaces and without a price cap, then I'm sorry, but then certainly the wide automotive world certainly does have a few that would match.


The above claim along with this one from earlier...

Aside from never having driven a Rolls Royce (I guess they're not dumb enough to let me out of the dealership with one of those...), I've never been in any S-Class that rode better than any DeVille I've ever been in. You guys get the DeVille over there? The older ones, not the new DTS, as I haven't even driven one of those, so I've got no idea how they ride myself, aside from what I've heard.

... do I'm afraid make you sound more than a little biased. Are you seriously saying that a car with broken suspension (thats how it reads to me) allows you to outrun these cars? If so its rather a bold claim to make, and also a long way from a 'definitive' test of any of these cars.

...Snip...

Regards

Scaff

Certainly not. I've outrun those cars in the twisties because I'm a good driver and I can compensate for the broken suspension (that's how it reads to me too ) and come out on top. Of course, if you were to put an experienced driver in an M car or AMG and tell him to show me how it's done, he'd show me how it's done.

 

[Poverty]

Reminds me of the impreza forums where guys outrun RS4's in theyre 250hp wrx.

 

[Scaff]

Aside from never having driven a Rolls Royce (I guess they're not dumb enough to let me out of the dealership with one of those...), I've never been in any S-Class that rode better than any DeVille I've ever been in. You guys get the DeVille over there? The older ones, not the new DTS, as I haven't even driven one of those, so I've got no idea how they ride myself, aside from what I've heard.

So your claim that Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to the ride quality of a Cadillac is based on an incomplete comparison.

As I mentioned in my last post, this is a very subjective area, one mans 'good' is another mans 'bad'.

The most recent Cadillac I drove was a Seville STS (apart from the Current range the most recent product they have tried to shift in Europe), prior to that I rode in older '80s models but could not tell you the exact model (it was quite a while ago).

I have to say as far as the Seville STS goes it certainly had a soft ride, but the body control over a series of compressions was quite poor and the suspension could end up struggling to control the load transfer. Certainly I would rate a Merc S class above it.

As far as RR are concerned, I've never driven one, but have riden in a few, now that is a (again arguably) world class ride, but here cost is not a issue, so it should be good.

Certainly not. I've outrun those cars in the twisties because I'm a good driver and I can compensate for the broken suspension (that's how it reads to me too ) and come out on top. Of course, if you were to put an experienced driver in an M car or AMG and tell him to show me how it's done, he'd show me how it's done.

Which kind of negates the point you were trying to make about the Cadillac, as you have quite clearly said that this was more about the drivers in question than the cars. On a more personal note I would be reluctant to drive a car with suspension that I knew to be faulty on the road, quite a potential hazard to yourself and other road users.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Onikaze]

Just had to toss this in, a Mercedes S-Class costs something like twice what an STS or DTS does over here, doesn't it?

Truly, what Americans prefer, with our cheap gas, and huge, SMOOTH, open roads, is going to be a lot different from what Brits and Euros like, isn't the basic roadway system in the UK basically a upgraded version of the original roadways put down hundreds of years ago? Nevermind the infamous potholes, I heard once if you aren't careful driving a really small car around, and find the wrong pothole, you might wind up in China.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm not going to outright say that Cadillacs are indeed better than products from Mercedes-Benz, but given their reliability problems compared to Cadillacs better record, that is a point of concern is it not?

...But this is about Saab, not Cadillac versus the world...

 

[Onikaze]

No doubt, I wouldn't own a 90's Merc unless I was paid too.

I've discouraged many people from going MB as for a long time I only heard about the declining quality of them.

Oh, YSS, it's always Cadillac versus the world, Caddy set themselves into that position years ago.

 

[YSSMAN]

Damn Cadillac and their whole "Standard of the World" slogan!!!

I just hate how Americans get picked on for liking the the cars, and yet we get flack for not having cars that can compete with the rest of the world. What the hell else do we have against the BMWs and Audis of the world? Freaking Lincoln? Ha, that is even funnier than the time Master_Yoda tried to convince us all that HKS is a better tuning company than Saleen.

Cadillac does what they do, and quite frankly, I like thier cars, a lot. So what if I'm a stupid, barbaric American... But by God, Cadillac does it for me. Sure, they aren't going to match BMW's mastery of exelence in terms of sport/luxury, nor would Cadillac ever outdo something like the S550 which is easily the standard of all luxury vehicles.

Cadillac comes as close as they possibly can with the beancounters at GM on their backs. What more can you ask for? BMW promotes the fact that they are "different" and thus build better cars than everyone else, but Cadillac can sell a product that is just as good in some respects for far less money.

...Note that I did not say Cadillac is better, nor will they ever be. They were at one time, but until GM lets them have free reign over what is happening, Cadillac is going to be in catch-up position for quite some time.

 

[Jay]

I have driven a few Cadillac's including a 91 Touring sedan which is a version of the Deville and I admit the ride quality was great, one of the smoothest cars I have driven. The 4.9 accelerated well in a straight line, wasn't real fast but had some pep, but the automatic wasn't so fun when you want to knock it down or up gears when cornering. (thats not restricted to the Cadillac but these column shift autos in general)

Problem is I felt alittle isolated from the road, the steering didn't have alot of feedback and the car wallowed around when I tried to push it around corners.
Which is fine for me because if I was to own a Cadillac like this it wouldn't be for performance. When I got back to my car I straight away noticed the bumps in the road and then realised how much the Cadillac isolated me from that. I also noticed how much feedback I got from the steering and how able the car was for performance.

To me from the Cadillacs I have driven (not new ones like the CTS etc) they have all been more like Luxury boats, comfortable, roomy, soft and great for cruising highways. Thats what I would expect and personally want If I were to get a Cadillac.

 

[harrytuttle]

^Typical European attitude. (Note: I don't care if this guy is, in fact, European, but this is the attitude of Europeans in general, and for that matter, people who like BMW's and MB's and live in the US.)

What, exactly, was cruddy about every Cadillac made in the past 20 years? Aside from the Cimarron. And the V8-6-4 is out, it's more than 20 years old. If you say "WELL UHH THEY WERE FWD!!!!111ONEONE111", your opinion is null and void.

How nice to assume that the belief that front-wheel drive is, indeed, NOT the shiznick, makes my or anyone else's opinion groundless.

But in my defense, I did not say that everything from Cadillac was better off directed straight to the scrap heap. I think someone has already covered the fact that Cadillacs primary market was at or beyond retirement age, which pretty much sums up why they were the way they were.

For any company to survive, they need a constant influx of the youth market. This is not because they have more money to spend (which they generally don't), but because they're going to be alive longer than any older demographic. For reference, I would point you to Buick, Oldsmobile, Plymouth, Mercer, Cord...it's a long list, but I think you would agree that most of those names would bring to mind "grandpa" not "high school".

So what is Cadillac trying to do with the BLS? Enter a younger demographic. The age group that usually purchases A4's, C-Classes, and the odd 3-series...in EUROPE. This is why it's a re-bodied entry-level Saab, and why they keep referring to it being "engineered for the European market". Of course it's engineered for Europe; it's a European car.

I must repeat: no one is saying the BLS is a bad car. In fact, it seems to be getting decent reviews. No worse, I'd guess, than a well-spec'd Astra or Passat. But I definitely disagree with how GM is handling Saab. It's one thing to share platforms & core components, but to simply re-body cars and pass them around as new items seems disingenous at the least. I admire originality and effort over repetition, of which the latter is naturally far easier.

 

[Danny]

Cadillac should've expected the BLS to flop. Look at the Catera - A rebadged sister car. Look at the Cimarron - Same. What happened to those? Floptastic.

Although to be fair, the BLS isn't a terrible car, it's just that Europeans snub their noses at Cadillac due to totally incorrect assumptions, and an auto press full of jackasses.

Also lots of people here find it really ugly (myself included). And lest we forget the once bitten twice shy effect of the supposedly dire STS?

To be frank, I wouldn't p*** on it if it burst into flames.

 

[Tornado]

I just hate how Americans get picked on for liking the the cars, and yet we get flack for not having cars that can compete with the rest of the world. What the hell else do we have against the BMWs and Audis of the world? Freaking Lincoln? Ha, that is even funnier than the time Master_Yoda tried to convince us all that HKS is a better tuning company than Saleen.

Hey! I'm of the opinion that Lincoln has still gotten far closer to BMW and Mercedes than Cadillac has with the CTS. The LS was the car to beat every year it was sold, and nobody ever made anything taht could beat it (though the 300C and CTS got close.)

 

[YSSMAN]

I'd agree with the fact that the LS is probably the closest any American car had gotten to the 3-series, but the car was introduced at refresh of the 3-series, and the G35 showed up shortly thereafter.

...But in the past decade, it is about the only Lincoln I would consider a compeditor to any German or British marque in any way...

 

[JCE]

Too bad that Lincoln had a rather underpowered engine. If Ford stuffed the 4.6L in it the car would of probably sold better. Hell, *I* would even want one with the 4.6L. Just my opinion.

 

[YSSMAN]

I completely agree. If they would have gone with the SVT Mustang's 4.6L with the 320 BHP, they could have sold them by bushel. That would have rattled the 330i's cage just a bit, and the G35 wouldn't have stood a chance.

...But, alas, it never happened...

But I'm sure you could easily do it yourself!

 

[JCE]

I completely agree. If they would have gone with the SVT Mustang's 4.6L with the 320 BHP, they could have sold them by bushel. That would have rattled the 330i's cage just a bit, and the G35 wouldn't have stood a chance.

...But, alas, it never happened...

But I'm sure you could easily do it yourself!

Well I'm not 100% sure how large/wide the 3.9L V8 is but the 4.6L modular engine is HUGE! (waits for someone to post the 302ci vs 281ci side-by-side pic) But still the point is made, Ford sometimes confuzzles me on why they don't try...actually the same can be said for the "big three" automakers in the US. Just my opinion. 👍

 

[a6m5]

That would have rattled the 330i's cage just a bit, and the G35 wouldn't have stood a chance.

I don't think so. I don't know how many 330i sales it would've stolen, but as for G35(sedan, right?) buyers, they are not interested in cars with SVT motors.

 

[JCE]

but as for G35(sedan, right?) buyers, they are not interested in cars with SVT motors.

*grin* *jumps up and down* I am! I am!

 

[a6m5]

*grin* *jumps up and down* I am! I am!

Well, duh. Most younger males would be, but most of G35 sedan buyers I've seen are middle aged, many of them female.

 

[JCE]

Well, duh. Most younger males would be, but most of G35 sedan buyers I've seen are middle aged, many of them female.

Too bad, they are fantastic sport saloons. I'd take on over any Merc or BMW anyday.

Mmmm I have an idea...an Infiniti G35 SVT Sedan. Mmmm, sounds tasty.

 

[GT4_Rule]

400 units since sales began? That is horrific. When did the sales begin?

 

[Wolfe]

I'd agree with the fact that the LS is probably the closest any American car had gotten to the 3-series, but the car was introduced at refresh of the 3-series, and the G35 showed up shortly thereafter.

...But in the past decade, it is about the only Lincoln I would consider a compeditor to any German or British marque in any way...

Hmm....that's odd, I never even noticed that the LS was a decent car...too busy reading the other articles of my magazines I guess -- I never would have expected anything with a Lincoln badge on it to handle better than a typical land-yacht.

*looks up LS on google images*

OH!! That thing. I see them on the road all of the time. I must admit that they do look sportier than the average Lincoln, mainly because of that BMW-esque front end.

 

[Tornado]

Too bad that Lincoln had a rather underpowered engine. If Ford stuffed the 4.6L in it the car would of probably sold better. Hell, *I* would even want one with the 4.6L. Just my opinion.

The 3.9 had more power than the 4.6 actually did (not what it was rated as) from 2002 until 2005, and by that point it was an excercise in futility to put the now finally more-powerful Mustang engine in it. Besides, the 3.9 was a buttery smooth engine, it basically being the Jaguar V8 engine minus .2 liters.