The "Good" Chrysler Thread: Making Vanilla, Vanilla

[Jim Prower]

How do we know that TATA and FIAT are in the talks? Or did Autoblog just pick two automakers out of the sky?

Would all this turn out into something like the deal Diamler had with Chrysler back in the day? Hopefully that wouldn't throw Chrysler back down the drain.

They're IN the drain. They need someone to pull them out...at least, in name.

Tata, at least, has a good deal of money behind them, but, as has been said before, their only US market items are Land Rover and Jaguar. (Although, the strong HEMI could benefit both.)

FIAT? Another interesting idea, but they're busy enough getting Alfa back over here to compete with the Swedes, Saab and Volvo, as well as Acura.

Nissan/Renault would be a nice fit, but interior quality is a bit lacking for US market Nissans/Infinitis, as is overall refinement for Nissan's small cars. Then again, ANYTHING would be an improvement for Chrysler: the 20-year-old switchgear in my Nova feels better screwed together than their '08s, at least.

 

[Jondot]

Fiat? Renault? TATA? This is getting a little silly now. I mean soon enough there's not gonna be any brands left that they can speculate Chrysler to mate with. What else is there?

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[Jim Prower]

Perhaps Sears, Roebuck, & Co. can get back into the auto business. (First experiment was the Allstate, a rebadged Kaiser Henry J.)

But, jesting.

 

[nissan tuner]

please someone, anyone, save the jeeps!!

Oh and the SRT's while you're at it

 

[Jim Prower]

Jeep is Chrysler's strongest brand, and the one every carmaker would be most willing to keep. Too bad they have so much fat.

The SRTs...need more refinement, particularly that Hatchagon, the Caliber.

 

[Philly]

They're IN the drain. They need someone to pull them out...at least, in name.

I guess what I meant was are we going to see somebody come in, rape them of whatever they have left then leave them to rot on the side of the road?

As for refinement in the SRTs, I think they could probably do well if it was a performance, might weight refinement as opposed to a "Make it as cheap as possible, no matter what the consumers want" unrefined.

 

[Joey D]

please someone, anyone, save the jeeps!!

Oh and the SRT's while you're at it

No Jeep should go under, especially if they decide to build them in India.

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A merger won't happen though, the unions won't allow it and the automotive companies bend over backwards for the UAW even though they are big reason why the Big Three are in the position they are in.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/15/surprise-uaw-would-be-against-merger/

 

[Leonidae]

I would just love to see Nissan/Renault getting Dodge. Viper V10 in Renault Clio, anyone? Or better yet, AWD Viper with computers, traction control etc etc.. ooh, the irony..

 

[Jim Prower]

The 8.1...or whatever it is...would make an awful handling Clio. I'm still waiting for them to stuff a VQ in there, though.

On the other hand, it could give Nissan a proper truck, Chrysler a nice set of V6s and inline fours, and perhaps proper small cars based on Renaults.

I'd like to see an SRT-4 based on the Megane Renault Sport.

 

[Bones Brigade]

But isn't the Megane Sport a decent car?

 

[YSSMAN]

One More Rumor to Throw on the Pile:

GM + Chrysler = Buy in, sell off, reap the benefits

The basics:

- Pick and choose products to keep from each bin
- Eventually (or immediately?) dissolve Chrysler & Dodge
- Keep Jeep
- In theory, gain the 1.5M in sales every year from Chrysler...

Um, anyone else sense a bad idea? Once again, I'll re-iterate: Chrysler needs to sell itself to either FIAT or Nissan-Renault. Its the only good we could expect in this world.

 

[Jim Prower]

Reminds me of this strip.

http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-10-07/

Poor Chrysler people....

 

[harrytuttle]

One More Rumor to Throw on the Pile:

GM + Chrysler = Buy in, sell off, reap the benefits

The basics:

- Pick and choose products to keep from each bin
- Eventually (or immediately?) dissolve Chrysler & Dodge
- Keep Jeep
- In theory, gain the 1.5M in sales every year from Chrysler...

Um, anyone else sense a bad idea? Once again, I'll re-iterate: Chrysler needs to sell itself to either FIAT or Nissan-Renault. Its the only good we could expect in this world.

I don't know if they need to go to Fiat or Nissan-Renault, but a parts sale of some kind is the most probable result. It may not be the nicest thing, or even the right thing (in the long run), as Chrysler could always pull it around given enough time. The Jeep brand could carry them if they did something intelligent in small cars for once.

It's not entirely impossible. My improbability machine says it's entirely within the realms of slim to none, but doable.

 

[Philly]

I think this would end up being a huge blow to the whole Midwest economy, at least the upper Midwest considering all the jobs that would be lost.

And I'd be curious how this brand thing would work. Would GM just incorporate the existing vehicles or technologies into their existing brands? Although I must say that GM stepping in and scrapping most of the lineup could be the best thing that's happened to them. Losing Dodge and Chrysler would be a shame. GMC Ram, Buick 300, Pontiac Charger and Chevy Viper just don't have the same ring to them...

 

[YSSMAN]

The Jeep brand could carry them if they did something intelligent in small cars for once.

Its the sad truth when it comes to the whole Chrysler corporation in general. Lets be frank, if they narrowed their product lines down to:

- "Hornet" project
- Caliber, bring in a sedan version as well, killing AWD model
- Patriot, as a quasi-Subaru fighter
- Sebring, restyled, of course
- 300C
- Challenger
- Grand Caravan with increased luxury options
- Ram 1500/2500/HD
- Wrangler with rumored diesel option
- Grand Cherokee

That would be an otherwise "full" lineup at any other manufactuerer, and would likely be able to increase sales easily outright.

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And I'd be curious how this brand thing would work. Would GM just incorporate the existing vehicles or technologies into their existing brands?

That is the mystery question at this point. I doubt GM would let Dodge float around with direct competitors in every model, and the same can be said with Chrysler. Jeep is the only brand that otherwise wouldn't step too much on the current GM models, and truth be told, it would integrate well into the already floundering HUMMER network (which would likely be replaced by Jeep-specific locations outright).

The arguements I'm hearing from pro-merger folks at GM is that we (GM) would keep the following:

- The Jeep brand almost completely, filling out HUMMER
- The mini van platforms, most the vans altogether, filling in a critical piece of market share for GM
- A possible basis for a RWD Buick with the LX/LY chassis, but not Zeta (which I do not understand at all)
- Technology sharing with the big trucks (probably parts bin swaps)
- Maybe keep the "World" I4 and "Phoenix" V6, possibly the HEMI V8, but otherwise ditching all of the engines and transmissions in favor of GM units.

Personally speaking, if it were to go through, I think we'd see a lot of cherry-picking on both sides of the fence, likely in favor of GM products more often than not. I could see Dodge existing as some sort of quasi-replacement for the GMC line, Chrysler becoming some kind of small-time filler perhaps accounting for a shift on behalf of Saturn or something else. And of course, I've already discussed what would likely happen with Jeep.

With the GM technology, quality and refinement being so far ahead of Chrysler's on almost every level, I'm just not seeing what the benefit of a merger would be other than the consolidation of their finances. Perhaps they plan to buy, and then sell it off in pieces to the highest bidder(s)? All while keeping Jeep?

FIAT and Nissan-Renault would have the most to gain from the increased domestic production capacity, massive R&D resources, and a dealer network for what would likely become federalized products from Europe. But, the specifics of that deal I'm otherwise uncertain of...

 

[Sniffs]

again. what is it with everybody, INCLUDING GM wanting to get their grubby little paws on Jeep?!

integration with HUMMER??!?! *laughs butt off for 5 minutes*

Jeep is all american (i think), and should stay that way, FOREVER.

rather than see GM get their hands on it, jeep should pull a Studeabaker. bye-bye, and thanks for all the Rubicons...

btw, if it does go to Nis/Ren...if they're gonna swipe the Viper V10...make a new Espace F1 out of it

 

[Joey D]

Jeep is all american (i think), and should stay that way, FOREVER.

Except for the the Jeeps built in Canada, Austria, and Europe. No company is purely based out of one country. Hell Honda is more American then most American car companies.

 

[buickgnx88]

Haha I have a Canada Jeep.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I have a question about the Vipers; Didn´t Chrysler try to sell off the Viper brand name a while back? Whatever happened to that?

 

[TheCracker]

Except for the the Jeeps built in Canada, Austria, and Europe. No company is purely based out of one country. Hell Honda is more American then most American car companies.

Austria and Europe you say?

Fiat or Renault/Nissan would probably want Chrysler as a foot-in-the-door for the US. GM could possibly use it as a foot-in-the-door for more European sales. Chrysler is already a familiar name over here where as Chevy, even after the re-badged Daewoo business still doesn't mean much.

 

[Joey D]

Austria and Europe you say?

Wow. I need coffee.

 

[YSSMAN]

I have a question about the Vipers; Didn´t Chrysler try to sell off the Viper brand name a while back? Whatever happened to that?

No word yet, but I can guess that the death or immediate sale of the Viper "brand" would be imminent with a possible GM merger pending.

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Nardeli was on CNBC today, they have the transcript here. Rumor has it that this merger, if it is to occur, will happen within the next two weeks. I continue to pray that it does not, but it was interesting to see that Nardeli discussed the partnership with Nissan-Renault on the new small car stuff.

With the UAW, most Chrysler folk, and most GM people not wanting this to go through... I just keep wondering who is treading water and who is not.

 

[Jim Prower]

Chrysler considers Renault-Nissan alliance.

On the front of its Marketplace section, the Wall Street Journal (10/21, B1, Stoll) reports that "Chrysler LLC may join an existing manufacturing and development alliance between Japan's Nissan Motor Co. and France's Renault SA," sources say. "But a sale...to General Motors Corp. is still its preferred path," people familiar with the matter note. The Journal explains that Chrysler "is discussing having Nissan, and possibly Renault, acquire a minority stake in Chrysler." It isn't clear, however, whether Chrysler or Cerberus Capital Management LP, Chrysler's majority owner, "also would be asked to purchase an interest in the Japanese and French automakers in order to maintain a cross-shareholding relationship." Although "Nissan has taken the lead in talks with Cerberus and Chrysler executives...any partnership would include Renault as well." Meanwhile, "Cerberus prefers a deal in which GM takes control of Chrysler. That would reduce the investment group's exposure to the volatile global auto industry.

Lack of financing impedes GM-Chrysler acquisition deal. Following a story reported in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about negotiations between General Motors Corp. (GM) and Chrysler LLC, the Wall Street Journal (10/20, B1, Stoll, Mccracken) reported on the front page of its Marketplace section that GM's "hopes of buying longtime rival Chrysler...are floundering because the automaker remains unable to secure the financing necessary for the deal," according to people familiar with the matter. In the last few days, GM, its lenders, and Cerberus "have been trying to woo investors with a pitch about the transaction. That pitch touts a combined GM-Chrysler as delivering cost savings of up to $10 billion, an immediate boost in revenue and an increase in cash available to the merged firm." The Journal noted, "Outside money is needed to fund the cost-cutting -- especially buyouts and severance packages for tens of thousands of hourly and salaried employees." Those cuts could affect "as much as 40,000 jobs if a deal comes together, said people briefed on the talks. And GM is already burning more than $1 billion in cash each month."

The AP (10/21, Krisher, Brun) adds, "A potential deal...is slowly moving forward."

Bloomberg News (10/21, Green) points out that "a GM-Chrysler tie-up would be a 'high-risk' deal, with the benefit being leverage over the United Auto Workers and lenders," according to a media report. "GM and Chrysler are exploring a merger as rating companies such as Standard & Poor's predict the automakers may run out of cash in 2009." Chrysler "has said it won't make money this year, and GM has lost almost $70 billion since posting its last annual profit in 2004." According to Bloomberg, "dwindling U.S. demand may push industrywide sales next year to the lowest since 1991."

AFP (10/20) reported that GM and Chrysler "aim to finalize their merger agreement within the next two weeks, or before the November 4 presidential election," according to a media report. "The two companies are also lobbying for government financial assistance to help clinch the deal." According to sources, "the talks have intensified as representatives from the companies try to see if the potential costs savings could outweigh the difficulties that come with combining firms with overlapping product lines and vastly different corporate cultures." The Detroit Free Press (10/20, Merx), Canada's Financial Post (10/20, Van Praet), the Montreal Gazette (10/20), and MarketWatch (10/21, Langlois) also cover the story.

Sources
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122454422088152065.html?mod=todays_us_marketplace
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122445891509348563.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122447134901349421.html
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gN2p_jkvRRBeQ6oqznKZ2dTJ3_gwD93UFV500
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aQIWohlj44Nw&refer=us
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i89GFK47JM37xY_OavtGFmlcbrLA

Perhaps Nissan/Renault would be willing to take Chrysler and Dodge when GM tosses them aside.

 

[Philly]

Both companies are almost broke and losing money fast. Where is the money for this coming from? Or is Chrysler so worthless that they are giving themselves away virtually free?

It will be a shame to see Chrysler get picked apart in the near future. Sure, they aren't much now, but they have proven able to build some cool cars when times are good.

 

[Joey D]

I fear the money is probably coming from the taxpayer's pockets with the bailout, but I'm sure there is more to it then that...at least I hope.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, here is the moderately clear sign that Chrysler will go to either GM or Nissan-Renault:

Chrysler Kills $3BN Phoenix V6 Engine Program

Given the potency of GM's high-caliber "High Feature" setup and the clear offset of that with the Nissan FQ program, it isn't worth Chrysler's time to dump any more cash in. Combined with GM's lack of cash and the already established partnerships with Chrysler on the Nissan-Renault front (Ram = Titan, Versa = Chrysler small car), I'm beginning to think that the forces are working against a GM merger.

At least in that sense, far more people are going to be able to keep their jobs, Chrysler will serve as a great way to get new Japanese or French products built (or sold?) in the US, and in the end keeps the wind in Chrysler's sails for a few more years.

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Just as a thought:

The CNBC coverage of the merger has been brutal. I can't recall a single analyst who has appeared on the channel who is in favor of the merger.

 

[Jim Prower]

All I can see is that GM DESPERATELY wants Jeep, so they can have an excuse to dump Hummer while still keeping a serious off-road image...as well as spend Chrysler's Bailout Cash.

It's nerve-racking enough for you, YSSMAN, being a GM supporter, but think of it as a Mopar guy...I'm sweatin' bullets over here!

 

[Joey D]

So they were talking on the radio this morning about how GM might approach Congress for money so they can buy Chrysler. Really? Really? You are going to ask for more money to buy a failing company? Where did these people learn economics and marketing? The radio was also saying that the feds will probably have to take over Chrysler employees pension plans, with the way the government invests money I don't think I would want them controlling my pension plan.

 

[YSSMAN]

That'll Depend on Nissan Then

Nissan Makes Offer for 20% of Chrysler LLC. This seems like a more beneficial plan to workers here in Michigan who would otherwise lose their jobs under a GM buy-out, and I think in the long run, it would serve to be a more profitable way in which of doing things if the Nissan-Renault-Chrysler brand could operate effectively.

Either way, I just don't want GM to be a part of it at all.

 

[Jim Prower]

The feeling is mutual.

I'm glad Nissan is at least putting their foot in the door, as I think it'd at least be a better idea than GM raiding and stripping Chrysler of everything. I don't think I could forgive them for doing that.