The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Liquid]

And Ricky Gervais.

 

[niky]

Nobody in their right mind should hold a one-hit wonder musical nobody as a bastion of intellectual debate.

Naked boobies.

Every opinion is better with naked boobies.

 

[TheCracker]

Naked boobies.

Every opinion is better with naked boobies.

Unless it's Ricky Gervais's naked man-boobies

 

[niky]

Unless it's Ricky Gervais's naked man-boobies

Uhhh.... uhmmm...

-

It's depressing to hear such things from a member of the LGBT community, however real or fake their membership card is.

Of course there are also straight women who enjoy men kissing very much. Doesn't say anything about how "wrong" or "right" it is.

 

[FoolKiller]

Nobody in their right mind should hold a one-hit wonder musical nobody as a bastion of intellectual debate.

Naked boobies.

Every opinion is better with naked boobies.

This explains why Jenny McCarthy has convinced so many parents that vaccines will give their kids autism.

 

[Rage Racer]

So, with the recent events in Eastern Europe, that hysteria about the "Russian homophobia" has gone down. Nothing heard about it for a long time.
Does anyone here doubt that this stuff was purely political?

 

[DK]

I doubt a lesbian having her throat slit is "nothing".

And yes, I doubt it was "purely political", because unlike the Dear Leader Putin I don't see gays as Untermenschen.

 

[Scaff]

So, with the recent events in Eastern Europe, that hysteria about the "Russian homophobia" has gone down. Nothing heard about it for a long time.
Does anyone here doubt that this stuff was purely political?

Given that laws are still in place within Russia that do not allow homosexuals the same rights as everyone else then political or not its still wrong. The same applies to any other country with similar laws.

So given that do I think that Russia advocates a form of politically sanctioned homophobia, that can result in people believing that its OK to target people as a result of? Yes I do, and until they are removed I will continue to do so.

In exactly the same way I consider the same to be true in the UK when Clause 28 was in effect.

 

[Rage Racer]

I doubt a lesbian having her throat slit is "nothing".

Straight woman gets murdered - who gives a damn?
Lesbian woman gets murdered - hate crime! They killed a gay! Bastards!

And yes, I doubt it was "purely political", because unlike the Dear Leader Putin I don't see gays as Untermenschen.

Who told you about Vladolf Putler seeing gays like that?

Given that laws are still in place within Russia that do not allow homosexuals the same rights as everyone else then political or not its still wrong. The same applies to any other country with similar laws.

But Russia was the only one to be decried like that. Sometimes It looked like I live in the most homophobic country in the world (according to Western media).

So given that do I think that Russia advocates a form of politically sanctioned homophobia, that can result in people believing that its OK to target people as a result of? Yes I do, and until they are removed I will continue to do so.

No, there is no law allowing anyone to target any group of people.

 

[Liquid]

But there are laws which prohibit deliberate public expressions of homosexuality. And actions prohibiting such expressions.

In March 2012, an attempt to organize a Pride House at the 2014 Winter Olympics was struck down by the Ministry of Justice, which refused to approve the registration of the NGO set up to run it on the basis of the Pride House inciting "propaganda of non-traditional sexual orientation which can undermine the security of the Russian society and the state, provoke social-religious hatred, which is the feature of the extremist character of the activity"

Ridiculous. Completely laughable and pathetic. Here's the link for proof.

Having the mantra of "homosexuality is fine, just don't make it obvious or do it around us or in public or tell anyone" is not the sign of a tolerant and permissive society, in any country.

Edit: What Scaff said. You come across as having a persecution complex on this issue.

 

[Scaff]

But Russia was the only one to be decried like that. Sometimes It looked like I live in the most homophobic country in the world (according to Western media).

Of course....

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=homophobic+countries

....oh look how many other countries the 'western media' ignores and hwo they only focus on Russia.

Hmmmmm, looks like that claim took all of five seconds to prove wrong.

Seriously get the 'stop picking on Russia' chip off your shoulder, Russia and its people do many things to be admired and they also do many things to condemn (much like every other country), but this rabid patriotism and the bias it brings isn't doing you any favours in the way you come across.

No, there is no law allowing anyone to target any group of people.

Good job I didn't say that then.

Read it again.

 

[DK]

Straight woman gets murdered - who gives a damn?
Lesbian woman gets murdered - hate crime! They killed a gay! Bastards!

If she was killed because she was a lesbian, yes, it's a hate crime. If she was killed because she was a woman, yes, it's a hate crime.

 

[Danoff]

If she was killed because she was a lesbian, yes, it's a hate crime. If she was killed because she was a woman, yes, it's a hate crime.

...also, if he was killed because he was Bob and the killer hated Bob, it's a hate crime.

 

[Rage Racer]

If she was killed because she was a lesbian, yes, it's a hate crime. If she was killed because she was a woman, yes, it's a hate crime.

Is there anything telling that she was killed because she was lesbian?
Also, why do you think Putin is such a homophobe that he sees gays as "subhumans" (Untermenschen, you said)?

Of course....

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=homophobic countries

....oh look how many other countries the 'western media' ignores and hwo they only focus on Russia.

Hmmmmm, looks like that claim took all of five seconds to prove wrong.

But when I type 'homophobia' on Google, I get this:

And when I type 'homophobia in', guess which country comes first.

Seriously get the 'stop picking on Russia' chip off your shoulder, Russia and its people do many things to be admired and they also do many things to condemn (much like every other country), but this rabid patriotism and the bias it brings isn't doing you any favours in the way you come across.

I don't call myself a patriot, but I don't like propaganda directed against a certain country.

Here, @DK said that Putin sees gays as Untermenschen - a term used by Nazis. This may be a result of propaganda paralleling Putin with Hitler (Putin & gays = Hitler & Jews). I wouldn't be surprised if some people think that Putin wants to start the WW3 to kill all gays on the planet (calling it Final Solution of Gay Question).

Also, before the Sochi Olympics, many people all over the 'West' called to boycott the Games, and some gay athletes were afraid to come (at least one from New Zealand did not come at all), but those who did, probably were surprised because nobody was trying to kill or arrest them. (Although there was no Pride House open.)

There are more homophobic countries in the world, but they are not geopolitical enemies to be picked on. Not that I complain about fomenting Russophobia on the West in general, but I just notice that hysteria about 'homophobic evil Russians' is just a part of it.
But today, there are a lot more effective means for blackening RF in the society (which are appropriate in another thread).

Good job I didn't say that then.

Read it again.

You were talking about 'politically sanctioned homophobia'. What do you mean by this?

But there are laws which prohibit deliberate public expressions of homosexuality. And actions prohibiting such expressions.

Does the 'gay propaganda law' harm any actual gays? Being gay does not always include being a 'gay propagandist'. Homosexual people do not want to turn other people homosexual, isn't it? What's the problem then?
Expression is not illegal, though. Coming out is not 'propaganda'.

The reason why Crab agreed to sign the Milonov's law is, again, purely political. Whan it was signed, millions of Russian homophobes have thought "Wow, the government is doing something right!" - because trolling gays is easier than repairing roads, fighting corruption and solving the actual country's problems.
Yes, I call it nothing more than 'trolling'. Wolves are fed but sheeps are alive.

Having the mantra of "homosexuality is fine, just don't make it obvious or do it around us or in public or tell anyone" is not the sign of a tolerant and permissive society, in any country.

We don't call our society 'tolerant', but there are less tolerant ones in the world and somehow we are the most condemned for 'intolerance' to gays. I am sure that no one in the US Congress or Westminster actually cares about human rights of Russians (gay or not), they just follow their political goals.

Edit: What Scaff said. You come across as having a persecution complex on this issue.

Maybe, but the LGBT community has the same complex on Russia then.

 

[Famine]

But when I type 'homophobia' on Google, I get this:
View attachment 230356
And when I type 'homophobia in', guess which country comes first.

That's because you're on Google and in Russia. Your search results are tailored to your searches and your locale.

My first three results are:
Homophobia
Homophobia in football
Homophobia in schools

If I force it from Google.co.uk to Google.com, my first three results are:
Homophobia in Jamaica
Homophobia in hip hop
Homophobia in the black community

This is how search engines actually work.

 

[Malcolm Tucker]

That's because you're on Google and in Russia. Your search results are tailored to your searches and your locale.

My first three results are:
Homophobia
Homophobia in football
Homophobia in schools

 

[Famine]

Beats me.

*tucks copy of Lesbian Schoolgirl Lust VII under the desk*

 

[Lizard]

That's because you're on Google and in Russia. Your search results are tailored to your searches and your locale.

My first three results are:
Homophobia
Homophobia in football
Homophobia in schools

If I force it from Google.co.uk to Google.com, my first three results are:
Homophobia in Jamaica
Homophobia in hip hop
Homophobia in the black community

This is how search engines actually work.

Odd I get homophobia in Russia 4th result.
It goes.
Homophobia.
Homophobia definition
Homophobia in football.
Homophobia in Russia
Homophobia in schools.

Never searched that sort of thing either.

If I use .com I get definition, quotes and statistics as well as base homophobia.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Russia is the second result for me.

Considering that it's a country accused of having a law which;

introduces fines of up to 5,000 rubles ($156) for citizens who disseminate information aimed at minors "directed at forming nontraditional sexual setup" or which may cause a "distorted understanding" that gay and heterosexual relations are "socially equivalent", the official publication of the bill showed.

that doesn't seem surprising.

@Rage Racer, how do YOU translate the text of that law, and do you think it's reasonable that the spectrum of sexuality should be hidden from children? That does seem to be a Nazi-style approach to humanity.

 

[dxm8975]

Odd I get homophobia in Russia 4th result.
It goes.
Homophobia.
Homophobia definition
Homophobia in football.
Homophobia in Russia
Homophobia in schools.

Never searched that sort of thing either.

If I use .com I get definition, quotes and statistics as well as base homophobia.

I tried searching the word on google tailored to my location(since I currently live in Japan, I typed with an URL "google.co.jp" at the end) and got the term on the 6th.

Search result goes with the following.

Homophobia
Homophobia 意味 (the kanji letters are read " i mi " which means "meaning" in Japanese)
Homophobia definition
Homophobia wiki
Homophobia meaning
Homophobia in Russia

And after that I did search the term on my cellphone as well and the result was like this,

Homophobia definition
Homophobia statistics
Homophobia meaning
Homophobia in Russia

Kinda strange to see that both google.jp and search result on my phone popped up the word "in russia"(perhaps due to the so-called "anti-gay" law passed in the country very recently) whilst neither of them showed such a term as "school" or the ones about current homo/bisexual situation in a certain community.

 

[Rage Racer]

@Rage Racer, how do YOU translate the text of that law, and do you think it's reasonable that the spectrum of sexuality should be hidden from children? That does seem to be a Nazi-style approach to humanity.

Yes, we take homosexuality as "something wrong", something "not normal". Not a disease to be cured or something to persecute people for, but something undesirable to be widely common in the society. A deviation.
If you teach a child from elementary school that homosexuality is normal, I think it may affect his/her sexual development. Most Russians do not believe that people may be born gay.

That's the view of our community on this and I feel it dirty when someone condemns a certain culture for its views and dramatize it to "gay holocaust" for his political agenda.

 

[Imari]

Not a disease to be cured or something to persecute people for...

I think you're tripping over your own words there. There are few things that people will happily label as "wrong" or "not normal", and yet still tolerate without any attempt at persecution.

If people truly believe something is wrong, they won't tolerate it. They'll try and stamp it out. Either you're incorrect that society doesn't view homosexuality as wrong, or you're incorrect that they won't persecute gays when they get the chance.

 

[Scaff]

But when I type 'homophobia' on Google, I get this:
View attachment 230356
And when I type 'homophobia in', guess which country comes first.

So google is the 'Western Press' now is it?

Now aside from your straw-man being wrong (as Famine and others have clearly pointed out) you have also ignored the fact that your claim of the western media portraying Russia as the most homophobic country in the world (your words) is easily proven to be incorrect?

I find it odd (but not surprising) that you don't want to address the fact that your propaganda claim is so easily shown to be inaccurate?

I don't call myself a patriot, but I don't like propaganda directed against a certain country.

Here, @DK said that Putin sees gays as Untermenschen - a term used by Nazis. This may be a result of propaganda paralleling Putin with Hitler (Putin & gays = Hitler & Jews). I wouldn't be surprised if some people think that Putin wants to start the WW3 to kill all gays on the planet (calling it Final Solution of Gay Question).

Also, before the Sochi Olympics, many people all over the 'West' called to boycott the Games, and some gay athletes were afraid to come (at least one from New Zealand did not come at all), but those who did, probably were surprised because nobody was trying to kill or arrest them. (Although there was no Pride House open.)

So knowing your wrong you now bury yourself deeper into hyperbole and start claiming things no one has said.

Indicators of a radial partriot in my eyes.

There are more homophobic countries in the world, but they are not geopolitical enemies to be picked on. Not that I complain about fomenting Russophobia on the West in general, but I just notice that hysteria about 'homophobic evil Russians' is just a part of it.
But today, there are a lot more effective means for blackening RF in the society (which are appropriate in another thread).

Yes I know that more homophobic countries exist in the world, I provided the links from the western media showing exactly that, you know the propaganda filled western media that always says Russia is the most homophobic country in the world (your words). Ohh wait.....................

You were talking about 'politically sanctioned homophobia'. What do you mean by this?

Exactly that. Polices that isolate a different group for no valid reason aside from political, and action that has historically been shown to breed hatred and intolerance.

You don't need laws saying you can attack someone to encourage that behavior, you just need laws that isolate a minority and label them as 'wrong' or different (oh look what you do in a minute), fostering an 'us' and 'them' culture.

Yes, we take homosexuality as "something wrong", something "not normal". Not a disease to be cured or something to persecute people for, but something undesirable to be widely common in the society. A deviation.
If you teach a child from elementary school that homosexuality is normal, I think it may affect his/her sexual development. Most Russians do not believe that people may be born gay.

Pity that what you 'believe' doesn't correlate with reality.

Simple fact is you (and those who share this view) are wrong, or did bad parenting make gay penguins/lions/etc?

That's the view of our community on this and I feel it dirty when someone condemns a certain culture for its views and dramatize it to "gay holocaust" for his political agenda.

Then maybe your government shouldn't use homophobic laws to gain political advantage.

 

[DK]

Is there anything telling that she was killed because she was lesbian?
Also, why do you think Putin is such a homophobe that he sees gays as "subhumans" (Untermenschen, you said)?

[...]

Here, @DK said that Putin sees gays as Untermenschen - a term used by Nazis. This may be a result of propaganda paralleling Putin with Hitler (Putin & gays = Hitler & Jews). I wouldn't be surprised if some people think that Putin wants to start the WW3 to kill all gays on the planet (calling it Final Solution of Gay Question).

If it quacks like a duck, goose-steps like a duck, straight-arm-salutes like a duck...

 

[Daniel]

If it quacks like a duck, goose-steps like a duck, straight-arm-salutes like a duck...

 

[TenEightyOne]

If it quacks like a duck, goose-steps like a duck, straight-arm-salutes like a duck...

Or builds camps at Duck-au.

Yes, we take homosexuality as "something wrong", something "not normal". Not a disease to be cured or something to persecute people for, but something undesirable to be widely common in the society. A deviation.

Which is a socially abnormal and incorrect view.

If you teach a child from elementary school that homosexuality is normal, I think it may affect his/her sexual development.

Are you confusing teaching children that men can be a couple or women can be a couple with teaching them how they actually have sex, which is something very different? Most countries manage to teach social development without adding the sexual mechanics until an appropriate time.

Most Russians do not believe that people may be born gay.

I can tell that's what you believe, I struggle to believe that the whole most of a country with such a rich history of music, arts, science and thinking agrees.

That's the view of our community on this and I feel it dirty when someone condemns a certain culture for its views and dramatize it to "gay holocaust" for his political agenda.

But there is a very strong mind-control agenda; the effect of refusing to acknowledge homosexuality in a balanced view (and to legislate that it's wrong, abnormal, dirty, a deviation) mirrors the Nazi approach pretty well.

Here are the words you yourself have used; "something wrong", "something not normal", "something undesirable", "a deviation", and you go on to say that to hold a negative view of your society's approach is "dirty".

The one good thing is that you finally seem to accept that we're right about your country's view on it, you've been skirting that for some time.

EDIT: Apologies for the British joke at the end, so to speak

 

[Rage Racer]

I think you're tripping over your own words there. There are few things that people will happily label as "wrong" or "not normal", and yet still tolerate without any attempt at persecution.

If people truly believe something is wrong, they won't tolerate it. They'll try and stamp it out. Either you're incorrect that society doesn't view homosexuality as wrong, or you're incorrect that they won't persecute gays when they get the chance.

No. "Dislike" doesn't mean "persecute/try to destroy".
Homosexuality is as 'wrong' (in our society) as other forms of deviations - infertility, diabetes, epilepsy, Down syndrome, etc. You don't target diabetics for their problem, but you know that diabetes is 'wrong', correct?
But officially it's not a disease, since Russia joined the ICD-10, which does not call homosexuality a disease.
And not necessary 'to be cured', as no one has a clue how to 'cure' it.

So google is the 'Western Press' now is it?

No, but it may be a reflection of sentiment in the society of English-speaking countries.

Now aside from your straw-man being wrong (as Famine and others have clearly pointed out) you have also ignored the fact that your claim of the western media portraying Russia as the most homophobic country in the world (your words) is easily proven to be incorrect?

I find it odd (but not surprising) that you don't want to address the fact that your propaganda claim is so easily shown to be inaccurate?



So knowing your wrong you now bury yourself deeper into hyperbole and start claiming things no one has said.

Indicators of a radial partriot in my eyes.



Yes I know that more homophobic countries exist in the world, I provided the links from the western media showing exactly that, you know the propaganda filled western media that always says Russia is the most homophobic country in the world (your words). Ohh wait.....................

Alright, perhaps I was exaggerating here, but with the "most homophobic in the world" I mean my impression when I read some of those.

But another example: you remember how much whining was there around the Sochi Olympics and the 2018 FIFA World Cup (even in this thread), but (almost) nothing like this was heard before the Euro-2012 football championship in Ukraine and Poland, even though Ukrainian society is just as homophobic as Russian (don't know much about Poland though, but both of these countries have gay marriage banned constitutionally).

Exactly that. Polices that isolate a different group for no valid reason aside from political, and action that has historically been shown to breed hatred and intolerance.

How do they 'isolate' gays?

You don't need laws saying you can attack someone to encourage that behavior, you just need laws that isolate a minority and label them as 'wrong' or different (oh look what you do in a minute), fostering an 'us' and 'them' culture.

The law does not determine homosexuality as 'wrong' or 'different'. The society does.

Pity that what you 'believe' doesn't correlate with reality.

Simple fact is you (and those who share this view) are wrong, or did bad parenting make gay penguins/lions/etc?

That's what our society thinks. As for me, I have a little doubt about this, but I'd like to see some research works if there is any 'gay gene'.

Then maybe your government shouldn't use homophobic laws to gain political advantage.

This is where I agree with you. The Kremlin should be building roads instead.

If it quacks like a duck, goose-steps like a duck, straight-arm-salutes like a duck...

[citation needed]
May I see any quack, any goose-step, or any 'Sieg Heil' salute? At least one, please.
Also, how come the Fuhrer Vladolf Putler awarding an openly gay singer, Boris Moiseyev, with the Meritorious Artist title?

Yes-yes, Russia has openly LGBT musicians who perform on public, on TV, and win awards, too, in case if you're surprised.

Which is a socially abnormal and incorrect view.

See my 'diabetes abnormality' above.
Also, want to know what my parents used to tell me about homosexuals?
"They are fine people, they just love people of the same gender. There's no need to harass or offend them, but we would not like it if you become a gay."

Are you confusing teaching children that men can be a couple or women can be a couple with teaching them how they actually have sex, which is something very different? Most countries manage to teach social development without adding the sexual mechanics until an appropriate time.

No, I wasn't talking about mechanics.

But there is a very strong mind-control agenda; the effect of refusing to acknowledge homosexuality in a balanced view (and to legislate that it's wrong, abnormal, dirty, a deviation) mirrors the Nazi approach pretty well.

Here are the words you yourself have used; "something wrong", "something not normal", "seomething undesirable", "a deviation", and you go on to say that to condemn a negative view of your society's approach is "dirty".

A 'deviation' is not a person's fault, and it's obviously not a reason to put anyone into a Gaswagen (let's not dramatize).
Gay couples cannot make children, that's why it's "not normal". Infertility is "not normal", too, but it's not a Nazi approach on infertile people. Agree?

 

[Carbonox]

No. "Dislike" doesn't mean "persecute/try to destroy".
Homosexuality is as 'wrong' (in our society) as other forms of deviations - infertility, diabetes, epilepsy, Down syndrome, etc. You don't target diabetics for their problem, but you know that diabetes is 'wrong', correct?

'Wrong' is more like something that is considered immoral. I don't think conditions you can't do anything about have anything to do with morality?

 

[TenEightyOne]

May I see any quack, any goose-step, or any 'Sieg Heil' salute? At least one, please.

Oh don't be silly, you know well that the comparison is to the policy rather than a caricature.

No. "Dislike" doesn't mean "persecute/try to destroy".
Homosexuality is as 'wrong' (in our society) as other forms of deviations - infertility, diabetes, epilepsy, Down syndrome, etc. You don't target diabetics for their problem, but you know that diabetes is 'wrong', correct?

Are you serious? I don't think you understand either the weight of the words you're using or the context. No, I don't think diabetes is "wrong", I don't think epileptics are deviant.

Also, how come the Fuhrer Vladolf Putler awarding an openly gay singer, Boris Moiseyev, with the Meritorious Artist title?

Quite possibly for the same reason that uber-racist-uber-homophobic British TV of the 70s idolised Larry Grayson, John Inman, Russel Harty and co. They were seen as weird-but-inactive.

A 'deviation' is not a person's fault, and it's obviously not a reason to put anyone into a Gaswagen (let's not dramatize).
Gay couples cannot make children, that's why it's "not normal". Infertility is "not normal", too, but it's not a Nazi approach on infertile people. Agree?

I don't recall accusing Russia of following just Putin's demands (my presumption has always been that the Parliament voted that way as a majority) and I don't recall accusing you of a policy of extermination.

By taking the argument to that silly extreme you're simply masking the things you've already said by accusing us of implying those silly things.

My parents are infertile and can't have children, I really don't see how you separate that from "gay couple can't make children" in that sense. But gay couples CAN and DO have children, there's nothing wrong with that... although presumably you disagree?

The upshot of what you're saying is that because a statistical "norm" is a heterosexual breeding couple with no incidence of Downs, epilepsy or diabetes then that's how society should be forced to be in law. Would you say that's correct?

 

[Scaff]

No, but it may be a reflection of sentiment in the society of English-speaking countries.

The problem with that is you are still clutching at straws.

I've already clearly shown that this is not the case so why exactly are you still trying to use it as justification for a totally inaccurate claim?

Alright, perhaps I was exaggerating here, but with the "most homophobic in the world" I mean my impression when I read some of those.

But another example: you remember how much whining was there around the Sochi Olympics and the 2018 FIFA World Cup (even in this thread), but (almost) nothing like this was heard before the Euro-2012 football championship in Ukraine and Poland, even though Ukrainian society is just as homophobic as Russian (don't know much about Poland though, but both of these countries have gay marriage banned constitutionally).

Once again you are making claims that you can't back up.

The western media doesn't overtly target Russia in regard to homophobia, if anything the Islamic states and sub-Saharan africa feature far more highly, I think you may be suffering from a little confirmation bias here.

How do they 'isolate' gays?

By specifically targeting them with laws that have no basis in reality, logic or rights.

The law does not determine homosexuality as 'wrong' or 'different'. The society does.

Sorry but that's bollocks, the law does exactly that and a few post ago you were practically boasting about it.

That's what our society thinks. As for me, I have a little doubt about this, but I'd like to see some research works if there is any 'gay gene'.

Pub-med has plenty on it, the science that shows this is well established and as such show the laws in question for the bigoted nonsense they are, which is exactly why the 'isolate' and portary homosexuality as 'wrong' and 'different'.

This is where I agree with you. The Kremlin should be building roads instead.

So why are you not asking why they are targeting people who have done nothing wrong?

Gay couples cannot make children, that's why it's "not normal". Infertility is "not normal", too, but it's not a Nazi approach on infertile people. Agree?

OK so women who have been through the menopause are 'not normal' as well, can you point out to me the Russian laws that state they should not publicly talk about the menopause please?

While your at it the ones that ban discussions on infertility would be good as well!

Now unless you can show them, your own point highlights the illogical discrimination in place.