- 75
- Australia
The Homosexuality Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Duke
- 9,138 comments
- 447,846 views
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
80% positive support on an open internet forum is about as high as you could possibly get on this issue. Given the time the thread was launched it speaks volumes about the quality of membership here at GTP IMO.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
squadops
(Banned)
- 1,987
- United States
Do you think he'd go to an openly gay business in the first place?
In the U.S. you can refuse service for whatever reason you may think of, of course there is a federal civil rights law outlawing discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Written in 1964 mainly to stop racial discrimination. I wonder why they don't just add gay to that and avoid all the current outcry.
You will see this sign in the majority of small business windows where I live.
In the U.S. you can refuse service for whatever reason you may think of, of course there is a federal civil rights law outlawing discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Written in 1964 mainly to stop racial discrimination. I wonder why they don't just add gay to that and avoid all the current outcry.
You will see this sign in the majority of small business windows where I live.
- 38,951
- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
You think a law is going to do anything? Give me a break. What's happening now is what should happen. Cummins, for example, pulled support from the anti-gay garage. Losing support from a large client base is a much better anti-discrimination enforcement than any stupid law could be.
squadops
(Banned)
- 1,987
- United States
No, I don't think writing laws as we do left and right do anything at all but it might allow the media to move onto the next flavor of oh noos. This guy most likely would never have made the statements he did in the first place if it wasn't for all the attention this issue is getting.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
squadops
(Banned)
- 1,987
- United States
Isn't that the point? I guess people assume businesses who's goods and services cater to gays, but that's not necessarily true. I don't think a nana nana back and forth is any sort of answer, that's why I added something a bit more substantial to the thread.
- 38,951
- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
See Wilton Drive, Ft. Lauderdale, FL.
- 874
- United Kingdom
Usually I am not as open about this as this post will show, mainly because it is my business and no one else's. But for once I feel I must share this. What you are going to read from me, is a post I just made to someone on youtube. And yes, I understand that youtube is a bottomless pit of trolls. It is about transgender individuals, to which I am one myself. I am male to female.
I know that is thread is geared towards homosexuality, but I have noted that on occasion transgender items of been the note of discussion. So I figured it was best to post in here, rather than to create a separate thread.
Basically, this post revolves around people who think it is a choice to be a transgendered individual; to which it really isn't. As well as to make seem like a phase someone just goes through. And who also take proper documentation regarding treatment routes, mix it with news reports, and twist it around to meet their own ends. I will place it in a spoiler, as it is fairly long. I will also post up the comment to which I responded too.
Thank you to anyone who has taken the time to read through not only my comment, but also the comment I am replying too.
I know that is thread is geared towards homosexuality, but I have noted that on occasion transgender items of been the note of discussion. So I figured it was best to post in here, rather than to create a separate thread.
Basically, this post revolves around people who think it is a choice to be a transgendered individual; to which it really isn't. As well as to make seem like a phase someone just goes through. And who also take proper documentation regarding treatment routes, mix it with news reports, and twist it around to meet their own ends. I will place it in a spoiler, as it is fairly long. I will also post up the comment to which I responded too.
The only real choice we have as transgender individuals, is to either take our own lives because we can not live as our birth assigned gender any more; or transition to the gender we know we should have been from birth. Being transgender and coming out is hard, we usually lose friends and family, get attacked and ridiculed by people, get refused jobs just because of who we are. Not to mention have to deal with people who think it is a choice to change gender. It isn't! Honestly, I would not wish this on anyone; even my worst enemy. There is no real choice here, it is either do or die. If I didn't seek proper help from my doctors and transition, I would have taken my own life. Because I would have rather been dead, than to live a lie as a man.
It also does not help that you are taking the appropriate material for information, and then twisting it to suit your own idea of what been transgender is. And you are then passing over that information to others in the wrong way. This is confusing enough as it is for people looking in from the outside, and people like yourself make it even more confusing. Lets not forget that "transgender" is an umbrella term, which also incorporates cross dressers, and other gender non-conforming people. I am just going to be talking about people such as myself, who suffer with gender dysphoria; and transition to live as the gender we know we are inside. When I use the term "transgender", I am using to it talk about people in the same situation as myself.
Take the HRT treatment for instance, I can only really comment on the male to female side of the fence.
The loss of energy in male to female transgender people in particular, is often caused by an anti-androgen or hormone blocking medication such as Zoladex. As these reduce the amount of testosterone to a much more female level, it can leave the person in question feeling as though they have a lack of energy. I am personally on Zoladex, and I felt tired when I was first put on it. Now I feel fine and have as much energy as I did before, it is just a matter of the body adjusting to the new hormonal levels.
Zoladex and drugs like it are often used in certain forms of cancer treatments, such as prostate cancer in men. Because it is a hormone blocker, it can reduce the size of the prostate, and make it easier to treat a tumour. As well as helping with some other hormone sensitive cancers.
As for the heightened risks of cancer and other things such as deep vain thrombosis. Well, HRT is not the only thing given by the doctors that can do this. Even women who where born physically female, who need HRT, have these exact same issues to face. HRT is not just given to transgender people. Hell, this also includes men who where born with a male body.
The higher rate of suicide is often down to people bullying us for who we are, usually with words. But some of us do get physically attacked, often leaving the person with both physical and emotional scaring. Not everyone can overcome this sort of abuse, and take their own lives. Couple this in with the loss of family and friends when coming out as transgender, loss of a job or not able to gain employment, and so on. Well, it all adds up. It puts some of us transgender individuals in very poor situations, and can result in people falling into poverty. Some turn to prostitution to get some money, which can potentially lead into alcohol and drug abuse (or vice versa). Most of the time, it is people on the outside that put us in these situations. Either by doctors refusing to help, or what I just touched upon above.
With regards to the sex reassignment operation, well here in the UK where I am from anyway. Some people will not abide by the NHS process, which is usually over a fairly long period of time. And will go private (assuming they can afford it), often travelling to another country to have any operations. These can often result in complications from the surgery, to which the NHS have to sort out anyway, assuming it is life threatening. But also because of this, there can be a severe lack of after care when taking this route. When having the surgery done by the NHS, there is after care provided. Ranging from physical examinations to make sure there was no complications from surgery, down to psychological after care.
The gateway to these treatments in the UK is via NHS psychologists who specialize in gender. There are some bad doctors and medical staff though, usually general practitioners (GP's for short). Essentially our family doctors, and usually our first port of call for anything medical. But also have to be our first call when seeking further help from the NHS with regards to gender. Some GP's can be outright verbally abusive, with a lot blocking treatment routes; and even declining to prescribe HRT when sanctioned by both a doctor specialising in the endocrine system, and the psychologists working at NHS gender clinics.
All these things can have a detrimental effect on a transgender individuals emotional state, both before and after surgery.
To show how long it can potentially take on the NHS in the UK, well take me for instance. I have been living as female for 4 years now (as in 24/7). For 3 years I did so without any HRT treatments, for which I started last May. I have been under NHS doctors for that time also. I have to live for a minimum of a year with just HRT once my hormone levels are in correct range of a natal female (hate that term, but need to use it in this instance), before surgery will even be considered. The reason for this, is that some transgender people can not live life with hormones in the correct female range (or male range if Female to male).
By living for a minimum of a year on HRT with hormones in the correct range for a woman, can aid the doctors in knowing if surgery is the correct course of action to take. Personally I just look at surgery as a treatment option, and not as the ultimate goal. It is just one aspect of a person been true to themselves, and the path to get there. A lot of people see it as the be all and end all, which is often the main reason people rush through it all to the operation. And are then often left feeling no better than before. Personally, I am just going to take my time over it; and enjoy living my life in the meantime. I am in no rush.
Anyway, we are just human beings. All we want is to live our lives, have a career, and be left alone. We are not hurting anyone, and it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. But please do not say it is "a choice", as it really isn't.
It also does not help that you are taking the appropriate material for information, and then twisting it to suit your own idea of what been transgender is. And you are then passing over that information to others in the wrong way. This is confusing enough as it is for people looking in from the outside, and people like yourself make it even more confusing. Lets not forget that "transgender" is an umbrella term, which also incorporates cross dressers, and other gender non-conforming people. I am just going to be talking about people such as myself, who suffer with gender dysphoria; and transition to live as the gender we know we are inside. When I use the term "transgender", I am using to it talk about people in the same situation as myself.
Take the HRT treatment for instance, I can only really comment on the male to female side of the fence.
The loss of energy in male to female transgender people in particular, is often caused by an anti-androgen or hormone blocking medication such as Zoladex. As these reduce the amount of testosterone to a much more female level, it can leave the person in question feeling as though they have a lack of energy. I am personally on Zoladex, and I felt tired when I was first put on it. Now I feel fine and have as much energy as I did before, it is just a matter of the body adjusting to the new hormonal levels.
Zoladex and drugs like it are often used in certain forms of cancer treatments, such as prostate cancer in men. Because it is a hormone blocker, it can reduce the size of the prostate, and make it easier to treat a tumour. As well as helping with some other hormone sensitive cancers.
As for the heightened risks of cancer and other things such as deep vain thrombosis. Well, HRT is not the only thing given by the doctors that can do this. Even women who where born physically female, who need HRT, have these exact same issues to face. HRT is not just given to transgender people. Hell, this also includes men who where born with a male body.
The higher rate of suicide is often down to people bullying us for who we are, usually with words. But some of us do get physically attacked, often leaving the person with both physical and emotional scaring. Not everyone can overcome this sort of abuse, and take their own lives. Couple this in with the loss of family and friends when coming out as transgender, loss of a job or not able to gain employment, and so on. Well, it all adds up. It puts some of us transgender individuals in very poor situations, and can result in people falling into poverty. Some turn to prostitution to get some money, which can potentially lead into alcohol and drug abuse (or vice versa). Most of the time, it is people on the outside that put us in these situations. Either by doctors refusing to help, or what I just touched upon above.
With regards to the sex reassignment operation, well here in the UK where I am from anyway. Some people will not abide by the NHS process, which is usually over a fairly long period of time. And will go private (assuming they can afford it), often travelling to another country to have any operations. These can often result in complications from the surgery, to which the NHS have to sort out anyway, assuming it is life threatening. But also because of this, there can be a severe lack of after care when taking this route. When having the surgery done by the NHS, there is after care provided. Ranging from physical examinations to make sure there was no complications from surgery, down to psychological after care.
The gateway to these treatments in the UK is via NHS psychologists who specialize in gender. There are some bad doctors and medical staff though, usually general practitioners (GP's for short). Essentially our family doctors, and usually our first port of call for anything medical. But also have to be our first call when seeking further help from the NHS with regards to gender. Some GP's can be outright verbally abusive, with a lot blocking treatment routes; and even declining to prescribe HRT when sanctioned by both a doctor specialising in the endocrine system, and the psychologists working at NHS gender clinics.
All these things can have a detrimental effect on a transgender individuals emotional state, both before and after surgery.
To show how long it can potentially take on the NHS in the UK, well take me for instance. I have been living as female for 4 years now (as in 24/7). For 3 years I did so without any HRT treatments, for which I started last May. I have been under NHS doctors for that time also. I have to live for a minimum of a year with just HRT once my hormone levels are in correct range of a natal female (hate that term, but need to use it in this instance), before surgery will even be considered. The reason for this, is that some transgender people can not live life with hormones in the correct female range (or male range if Female to male).
By living for a minimum of a year on HRT with hormones in the correct range for a woman, can aid the doctors in knowing if surgery is the correct course of action to take. Personally I just look at surgery as a treatment option, and not as the ultimate goal. It is just one aspect of a person been true to themselves, and the path to get there. A lot of people see it as the be all and end all, which is often the main reason people rush through it all to the operation. And are then often left feeling no better than before. Personally, I am just going to take my time over it; and enjoy living my life in the meantime. I am in no rush.
Anyway, we are just human beings. All we want is to live our lives, have a career, and be left alone. We are not hurting anyone, and it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. But please do not say it is "a choice", as it really isn't.
Just a reminder to anyone considering it that it is a choice, you don't have to do it, it's ok being who you naturally are without changing your body and that there is no medical consensus that this is a good course of action. Being a feminine male or a masculine female is perfectly fine no matter what some people might believe, ""There is no medical consensus on the best course of treatment for gender-dysphoric prepubescent children." "only about 20 percent of prepubescent children who exhibit cross-gender behavior continue that behavior into adolescence." http://www.houstoniamag.com/news-an...at-do-transgender-children-need-november-2014
"Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981931
"There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation." "The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. " http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth
"We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs." http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939
The attempted suicide rate of self described transgender people is 40 percent which is up to 4 times higher than other gender nonconforming groups like homosexuals. http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
"One of the riskiest aspects of HRT is that such little research has been performed to find out what health risks are involved. One serious health risk that is definitely correlated with HRT is thromboemolic disease, which occurs in 2.1% of patients under 40 and 12% of patients over 40. Trans* people undergoing estrogen therapy can experience extreme mood swings on estrogen, and severe depression and loss of energy can result. Mortality in MAAB trans* people is six times higher than the general population, and this is primarily due to suicide and unknown causes. Estrogen can also cause MAAB trans* people to be at a higher risk for benign pituitary tumors, gallbladder disease, and hypertension. http://www.ohio.edu/lgbt/resources/transitioning.cfm
"Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981931
"There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation." "The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. " http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth
"We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs." http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939
The attempted suicide rate of self described transgender people is 40 percent which is up to 4 times higher than other gender nonconforming groups like homosexuals. http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
"One of the riskiest aspects of HRT is that such little research has been performed to find out what health risks are involved. One serious health risk that is definitely correlated with HRT is thromboemolic disease, which occurs in 2.1% of patients under 40 and 12% of patients over 40. Trans* people undergoing estrogen therapy can experience extreme mood swings on estrogen, and severe depression and loss of energy can result. Mortality in MAAB trans* people is six times higher than the general population, and this is primarily due to suicide and unknown causes. Estrogen can also cause MAAB trans* people to be at a higher risk for benign pituitary tumors, gallbladder disease, and hypertension. http://www.ohio.edu/lgbt/resources/transitioning.cfm
Thank you to anyone who has taken the time to read through not only my comment, but also the comment I am replying too.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
To be honest, the way you set it up, I was expecting something much different from the comment you responded to and I feel you may have misinterpreted his/her intent. What I got out of it was that they were saying that you have a choice to do the surgery, and that with it comes a whole set of expectations that may not be fulfilled, and certain known medical risks. I did not get the feeling that they were saying in any way that you had a choice in how you feel about who you are, just a choice to go to the next level and attempt gender reassignment surgery. You may not feel that you have a choice in your particular situation, but the choices still exists in the general sense and with any life changing choice, we must always way the potential risks and rewards.
Thank you for sharing your story, I wish you the best of luck:tup:👍
- 874
- United Kingdom
Unfortunately, this was the response from the individual that post was written for.
It's very sad that you don't believe being a feminine male or a masculine female is ok, but it's not ok to tell that to other people. Just because you have decided to live in the closet pretending to be something you are not does not mean anyone else has to.
As for the negative physical and mental health effects....They are real. Downplaying and denying them takes away the consent of the person considering it. This treatment harms your body, It is only done as a psychological treatment for people with extreme depression or what they call gender dysphoria, and it has been largely ineffective. People have the right to know that going in.
As for the negative physical and mental health effects....They are real. Downplaying and denying them takes away the consent of the person considering it. This treatment harms your body, It is only done as a psychological treatment for people with extreme depression or what they call gender dysphoria, and it has been largely ineffective. People have the right to know that going in.
You learn very quickly when you live the life I do, the people who go out of their way to spread mis-information about these things. And who are the people who genuinely do not know any better. Someone who just doesn't know or understand, will not usually respond back in the way this individual has. They will often ask for more information regarding it, once they are able to converse with someone who has the life experience that is.
Edit: By the way, my response back. As well as another response from them. At this point, I am going to leave them to their own devices. They have proven the points I touched upon in my first response to them.
Did you even read my message to you? I did not once say it was not ok to be just a feminine male or masculine female, to which there are many in the world. So there you go again with twisting things to suit your own ends.
I also did not downplay the negative physical or emotional aspects either, and provided you with an insight from someone who knows on a personal level, as to why those negative aspects often occur.
As for stating that it is largely seen as ineffective, you are so wrong on so many levels. Trust me when I say this, there are far more trans individuals walking around than you would believe. The press and the world at large do not know half of it. They just see it from the outside, and pass judgement on what they interpret. Me, I am on the inside. This is my life day in and day out.
I also did not downplay the negative physical or emotional aspects either, and provided you with an insight from someone who knows on a personal level, as to why those negative aspects often occur.
As for stating that it is largely seen as ineffective, you are so wrong on so many levels. Trust me when I say this, there are far more trans individuals walking around than you would believe. The press and the world at large do not know half of it. They just see it from the outside, and pass judgement on what they interpret. Me, I am on the inside. This is my life day in and day out.
Yes I read your message You said that these people don't have a choice and that they have to do it and then downplayed the negative side effects.
As for it being ineffective, I quoted the studies. Trans patients usually report being happy after treatment but their depression does not actually go away and suicide rates and any other measure of outcomes are poor. Like every other psychiatric treatment method for depression it has been a clinical failure. Gender variant people who simply live life as feminine men or masculine women turn out better. This is why none of the serious hospitals perform the surgery part of it any more, only fringe clinics.
Like I said just because you decided you wanted to live in the closet pretending to be a female does not mean anyone else has to.
As for it being ineffective, I quoted the studies. Trans patients usually report being happy after treatment but their depression does not actually go away and suicide rates and any other measure of outcomes are poor. Like every other psychiatric treatment method for depression it has been a clinical failure. Gender variant people who simply live life as feminine men or masculine women turn out better. This is why none of the serious hospitals perform the surgery part of it any more, only fringe clinics.
Like I said just because you decided you wanted to live in the closet pretending to be a female does not mean anyone else has to.
This is the video to which I found their comment. My YT name is SongDesire, so just look for that to find the comment thread.
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- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
I think the transgender community has taken a hit with recent studies that have shown that even post-surgery transgendered individuals continue to deal with emotional/psychological issues.
The problem is that most people just see the headlines that say something like there are high rates of suicide/depression among post-op transsexuals or discuss the cases where the individuals express regrets. The studies aren't showing anything causal and the headlines and detractors ignore that these are individuals who are dealing with mental health issues to begin with. They suffer a nearly constant traumatic event every day. Then to make the full transition requires a major surgery and loads of drugs and hormones. depression and suicide is also high among teens, but no one is trying to say being a teen is wrong because it is understood that puberty is a huge hormonal shift which causes all kinds of emotions in teens. You can't just assume that an adult who is changing in a way that likely makes puberty seem tame will just be 100% stable the moment they wake up from surgery. They started out with strong emotional issues and that doesn't just go away. Any kind of major surgery can be traumatic to anyone for any reason.
The regrets will come from the same issue. A person who is depressed doesn't just feel happy once the initial cause is removed. They have to reach their new state of happiness. No one will wake up from gender reassignment surgery and automatically feel like their new gender and just be happy all of a sudden. There is a road to recovery and if they struggle with feeling a loss, as part of their body that they knew their entire lives is now completely different, the recovery can face a setback. I can easily understand how someone waking up from a reassignment surgery can feel regret early on when they don't feel like a woman immediately. If they had higher expectations then that will make anyone doubt themselves.
And if they have a significant other there is a whole new stack of issues to add on.
There is a reason why gender reassignment involves a lot of therapy.
Add in the lack of acceptance and understanding is far below where it has gotten for homosexuality and it is a long, hard road.
The problem is that most people just see the headlines that say something like there are high rates of suicide/depression among post-op transsexuals or discuss the cases where the individuals express regrets. The studies aren't showing anything causal and the headlines and detractors ignore that these are individuals who are dealing with mental health issues to begin with. They suffer a nearly constant traumatic event every day. Then to make the full transition requires a major surgery and loads of drugs and hormones. depression and suicide is also high among teens, but no one is trying to say being a teen is wrong because it is understood that puberty is a huge hormonal shift which causes all kinds of emotions in teens. You can't just assume that an adult who is changing in a way that likely makes puberty seem tame will just be 100% stable the moment they wake up from surgery. They started out with strong emotional issues and that doesn't just go away. Any kind of major surgery can be traumatic to anyone for any reason.
The regrets will come from the same issue. A person who is depressed doesn't just feel happy once the initial cause is removed. They have to reach their new state of happiness. No one will wake up from gender reassignment surgery and automatically feel like their new gender and just be happy all of a sudden. There is a road to recovery and if they struggle with feeling a loss, as part of their body that they knew their entire lives is now completely different, the recovery can face a setback. I can easily understand how someone waking up from a reassignment surgery can feel regret early on when they don't feel like a woman immediately. If they had higher expectations then that will make anyone doubt themselves.
And if they have a significant other there is a whole new stack of issues to add on.
There is a reason why gender reassignment involves a lot of therapy.
Add in the lack of acceptance and understanding is far below where it has gotten for homosexuality and it is a long, hard road.
- 874
- United Kingdom
That is just the thing really, people see the headlines and just jump on a bandwagon There is always going to be people who regret it. A lot of trans people will put so much emphasis on the final surgery though, and as I said in that rather long posting; rush towards it as quickly as they can. That is a major mistake in my opinion.
I wanted to do exactly that, especially when I first transition. I went pretty over the top in fact, with spending massive amounts of money on clothing that really wasn't suitable for every day life. It didnt help that I loved more gothic styles, and still do. to pressuring the doctors. It took me a good month, perhaps 2 to get over those initial "I want it all now" thoughts; and in that time I had built up a more suitable wardrobe of day to day clothing.... thank fully. But it was a sense of freedom when I finally took that leap.
Now I am glad that it has taken 4 years to get to this point, and I am actually very lucky to be honest. To the point that the NHS gender therapists have taken me off their books for the time being, as I am emotionally stable and happy in my life. It is essentially a waste of time and effort at this point for me to go and see them. And keep in mind that I am only on HRT at this moment. I have yet to have surgery, and that is all that is really left for myself now. It is just a small aspect to it all for me though, and it is always hidden any way. but not everyone has the same mindset as myself. I most likely will have the surgery, but for now I have more important things to deal with. And as it stands, and even without the surgery, I feel like a woman. I always have for as long as I can remember.
- 24,127
- Scarfolk
- Grim10
- Are you kidding?
- 7,621
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I think I would still side with Johnny's original point. There is reason for emotion from both sides. Transgender issues aren't completely understood and it's likely that not everyone who claims/thinks they are transgender actually are. Had this conversation taken place in person, it might have turned out differently.
In any case, people should be able to do whatever it is that they want with their own bodies. At the same time though, that doesn't mean the issues (if any) behind the decisions shouldn't be studied and considered cautiously. Negative outcomes with SRS should be a large concern. I'm sure not all of it has to do with the patient though as people still like to make a big deal over changing sex in the first place. It probably relates to the idea of self as it's commonly held in society. I don't see why the you (you in general) that you are born as is any more real than the you that you want to be. As time goes on, people will be able to change themselves more and more and along with that I can see the presence of irrational fear and discomfort decline.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
The school thing brings up two points:
1) Should schools officially participate in days/activities that are designed for a political statement? Keep in mind that gay rights is still a political issue in the US and a controversial, hot button topic for some.
2) If the school officially participates in an activity that makes a statement that some students don't agree with shouldn't they, without official school participation, be allowed to hold a counter activity?
Basically, if the roles were switched, where the school officially participated in an activity that you didn't agree with, would you have a problem with those you agree with holding a counter activity?
Free speech works both ways. No one was directly harmed by either action. If a school wants to avoid controversy they need to make a blanket no to all activities of this nature. If they had stopped the anti-gay group after allowing the day of silence they would also be in the news. They were going to get bad publicity no matter what. It is easier to get yelled at by self-righteous Internet bloggers than by self-righteous religious leaders with their congregations in front of the building.
You can also look at it this way: GLSEN has the Day of Silence to allow school officials to address gay acceptance issues, harassment, and bullying. That dialogue got started in a very big way.
1) Should schools officially participate in days/activities that are designed for a political statement? Keep in mind that gay rights is still a political issue in the US and a controversial, hot button topic for some.
2) If the school officially participates in an activity that makes a statement that some students don't agree with shouldn't they, without official school participation, be allowed to hold a counter activity?
Basically, if the roles were switched, where the school officially participated in an activity that you didn't agree with, would you have a problem with those you agree with holding a counter activity?
Free speech works both ways. No one was directly harmed by either action. If a school wants to avoid controversy they need to make a blanket no to all activities of this nature. If they had stopped the anti-gay group after allowing the day of silence they would also be in the news. They were going to get bad publicity no matter what. It is easier to get yelled at by self-righteous Internet bloggers than by self-righteous religious leaders with their congregations in front of the building.
You can also look at it this way: GLSEN has the Day of Silence to allow school officials to address gay acceptance issues, harassment, and bullying. That dialogue got started in a very big way.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Yes, and they always have. For example, I went to several CofE schools but was able to abstain from prayers (by simply not saying them). Parents and students have the choice not to attend school for specific gatherings or to sit out certain activities if they wish to. Learning about society and politics is an important part of schooling (both in the open and hidden curricula), schools shouldn't be turned in to some vanilla experience of average thinking.
No, as a general rule, but they should be free to organise what they want in their own space and time. That said; most schools will allow respectful, responsible protest by the student body - it's part of any sensible community activity.
- 24,127
- Scarfolk
- Grim10
- Are you kidding?
Oh I'm absolutely not questioning the legality of it (for want of a better word). I just think it's a 🤬 thing to do.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Always have is irrelevant to should. There are a lot of things that had always been done before we decided they shouldn't.
To a degree. Some schools, including the one I went to, had required attendance for assemblies during school hours. The only way to not participate was to not attend school, and there were laws regarding non-excused absences. We even had a truant officer that double checked.
The only activities that were required were anti-drug/alcohol things, talent shows, and plays. All other activities were performed by student organizations only, with voluntary participation from students. This included everything from recycling programs to civil rights activities and prayer ceremonies. Even "Wear your hat day" was a Future Farmer's of America activity.
Politics is not a one-way street unless you believe that indoctrination is a school responsibility. The fact it is sometimes treated as such is one reason why my daughter goes to a private school.
Did you find this to be respectful and responsible? We could debate the responsibility of encouraging the wearing of flannel after 1999, but aside from that.
You didn't answer my final question: Basically, if the roles were switched, where the school officially participated in an activity that you didn't agree with, would you have a problem with those you agree with holding a counter activity?
I agree. They didn't have an agenda other than to just show their negative opinions of fellow students.
The ultimate fact is that if the schools are doing their jobs then bullying and harassment, no matter the target, would be addressed. If there is enough cases of it not being addressed appropriately within a specific demographic that there needs to be a special day for it, then there is a very real problem in the schools.
I think the bigger issue is that bullying is taking place outside of school. The school cannot be responsible for what happens on Facebook. Their legal authority ends the moment a child is back under the supervision of the parents/guardians.
To me personally, bullying means bruises and blood, and I have little reaction to being called names. Name calling was what happened before the real pain. Now it is a completely public, social Internet community-wide event. I don't know if it is worse than getting pantsed in front of the entire school, but it supposedly is. The problem is that being homosexual and adolescent probably carries a lot of emotional baggage on its own, particularly if you aren't in a community that is accepting, so just verbal abuse is probably harder to handle than it was for me, but I don't know.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
No, providing it was respectfully done (as I'd expect the initial activity to also be).
- 12,893
- Divided States of America
- MikuHime80
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
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