The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Red Eye Racer]

well shoot,.... I though we were gonna jump from gay men to lesbianism,... but since that seems to be a much easier topic for a guy like me to exploit,... can I assume this thing is dead?

 

[Gil]

Not at all, Go back to Post #118 in this thread. I edited it a bit ago and my questions have not been addressed.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Close,.. but no cigar.

If you enjoy lesbian porn,... and your a man of God, your a hypocrate.

PLEASE,. dont take that the wrong way,. I was only stressing what my point would've been.

Everyone in here that 'speaks the good word' about gays being worng,.... need to be very careful when talking about lesbianism,... after all,... as Der Alta said,.. were guy's,... it's in our nature (supposedly).

Sorry girls (if there are any here),.. didnt mean to exclude you from my example.

 

[Gil]

Hypocrisy aside, What does it say about men that women are seeking nurturing and caring relationships from other women?

And what do YOU think about Gen. Ch. 19?

 

[Gil]

edit: didn't mean to triple post

 

[Gil]

edit:
Not Post Whoring...

 

[Pako]

neon_duke:

Points taken on all accounts! This is one that you have not fully thought out though:

Why not? Christians and other religious parents do it every day. No one bats an eyelash at the concept of Sunday School, where young minds too inexperienced to filter ideas for themselves are rigorously and purposely made to fit a given set of beliefs. Why is that not forcing a lifestyle upon a child? Sorry, Pako, but that's one you haven't thought far enough through. Why would a kid raised by caring, supportive homosexuals be inherently more confused than any other?

The fact is, until our children can become of age to think for themselves, to make their own conclusions, it is our job to raise them as we see fit. Once they are of age where they can decide or question their moral actions, then that is where we must step out and let them make their own journey. In the case of education of religion vs. "My parents are gay" is a huge difference.

Example: Let's say at age 12 they can decide "This christian God is not for me." On the other hand, at age 12 they are forced with the knowlege of "My parents are gay, they knew they were gay but decided to adopt(or some other means) without my consent, and I will never be able to decide otherwise."

I hope you can see the differnece. As birth children, they have no choice who their parents are...it just happens, it's the merricle of life.

These are two fundimentally different aspects of life that are far from being able to be compared. Now if the approach was to teach the child that homosexuality was OK, then we could have a comparison, but that is not the issue here. The child would have no normal example of relationships to use when starting his/her own family.

[edited] I am making the assumption that we both have the same idea of a normal relationship. If not, then we have different definitions of normal.

 

[Duke]

Red Eye I truly don't understand what your point is. Pornography of any kind is a completely different subject. It is also highly unlikely that a 'man of God' (even assuming that you don't mean an ordained person) would seek out pornography. I don't know if you're trying to be humorous or not but whatever it is, it's failing.

And for what its worth, when I refer to gayness or homosexuality I'm not referring specifically to men, but to homosexuals in general, be they male or female.

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
well shoot,.... I though we were gonna jump from gay men to lesbianism,... but since that seems to be a much easier topic for a guy like me to exploit,... can I assume this thing is dead?

Further,
You will find that if you take a stand around here and don't adequately defend it...you will be called on it.
If you're trying to "stir the pot". You'll get called on that too.
We won't just let you jump to an easier to defend position.
It's not in our nature.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

hmmmm,..... (takes coat off for first time today)

I was working towards a point. No, I was not trying to be a jokester refering to lesbian porn. AND IT DOES HAVE RELEVANCY TO THIS TOPIC.

Obviously,.. no one is gonna come out and say,. yep, your right red eye, I'm a hypocrate. So, I basically posted my opinion for you all to ponder. Also, when I say man of god,... it means anyone who beleives in the word. The word being ANY religion that denounces homosexuallity (also known as lesbian porn).

I sit here and read this stuff,.. wondering what one of you would do if your son/daughter told you they were gay. I'm quite convinced that you would toss your own flesh and blood onto the street.

I am trying to make you (everyone) realize what kind of preasure religion puts on a person when contemplating theses things. Makes me wonder,.... would you disown your own child, just because someone from over 2000 years ago said it was wrong?

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by neon_duke
Red Eye I don't know if you're trying to be humorous or not but whatever it is, it's failing.

.

Opinions are like bungholes............ some are blown out of perportion

 

[Gil]

You need to re-read post #58 and then re-read my first post re: Gen 19. The stuff down toward the bottom of that post...
Then accuse us of being ready to Turn out our own children/family.
I lost a cousin to AIDS about 5 years ago. We accepted and loved him. We nurtured him till the day he died. We didn't love his lifestyle, but we loved him.

 

[Pako]

Red Eye Racer:

Now that was a good, thoughtout post! First of all, that man 2000 years ago, I would assume your talking about Christ, would not disown a fellow human. He would take them by the hand and teach them all the wonderful things that can be achieved through a lifestyle that pleases God.

In regards to your question about throwing my own flesh out into the street. I've often wondered this situation myself with my own son. I would not throw-out or disown my son. I've made a choice to love my son No matter what, and that includes all lifestyles. He will always have my love as his father regardless of his actions. I know I will not always condone his actions as he gets older, but I will never stop loving or supporting him.

neon_duke:
As I drove home for lunch a thought came into my head. I realize that all my opinions regarding this issue is due in part to my own morllity. I choose not to change my morals for the sake of accepting someone elses decisions. As long as I have my set of morals that I live by, my opinions in this matter will be unaltered. Here's a question for you though: If for some reason you have to put the care of you daughters into the custody of someone else and your choice was a straight couple or a gay couple, while all other aspects were equal, who would you choose and why?

Tough isn't it?

 

[Kelly]

Originally posted by Gil
Further,
You will find that if you take a stand around here and don't adequately defend it...you will be called on it.
If you're trying to "stir the pot". You'll get called on that too.
We won't just let you jump to an easier to defend position.
It's not in our nature.

Why do you think I stay away from you lot

I'm just here for the read

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by Pako
The fact is, until our children can become of age to think for themselves, to make their own conclusions, it is our job to raise them as we see fit. Once they are of age where they can decide or question their moral actions, then that is where we must step out and let them make their own journey. In the case of education of religion vs. "My parents are gay" is a huge difference.

Example: Let's say at age 12 they can decide "This christian God is not for me." On the other hand, at age 12 they are forced with the knowlege of "My parents are gay, they knew they were gay but decided to adopt(or some other means) without my consent, and I will never be able to decide otherwise."

But why is that different than, say, a Christian couple adopting that baby? Is it just because you define Christian as 'normal' that it becomes acceptable? Why would not the same child say "My parents are Fundamentalist Christians, they knew that but decided to adopt me without my consent, and I will never be able to change that"? That child will be forced into the knowledge of his/her parents' religion, like it or not; exactly the same as being forced to recognize his/her parents' homosexuality.

I hope you can see the differnece. As birth children, they have no choice who their parents are...it just happens, it's the merricle of life.

But I don't see the difference. As adopted children (assuming they're infants) they have no choice, either.

These are two fundimentally different aspects of life that are far from being able to be compared. Now if the approach was to teach the child that homosexuality was OK, then we could have a comparison, but that is not the issue here. The child would have no normal example of relationships to use when starting his/her own family.

Why? A child has only the example it sees. I don't understand why they are different just because you are religious and not gay. If two gay people are committed to each other and their adopted family, and have a reasonably stable, loving and supportive home life, then why is that not a good example of how to start a family? It is to me.

I am making the assumption that we both have the same idea of a normal relationship. If not, then we have different definitions of normal.

Pako, I respectfully have to tell you I think you are wrong. You seem to be operating entirely out of your preconceived notion of what is 'right', rather than from an abstracted method of thinking which can be applied universally. You are free to teach your children the morals you uphold, but you're not free to assume that they are inherently more correct than any others (always remembering the prohibition against violence, theft, and falsehood).

For a very personal example, we are very open about nakedness in our home. We do not go out of our way to make a point of being naked, but we do not make a point of concealing our nakedness either. For some families it would be utterly shocking, purely on moral grounds. What is the harm? I harbor no sexual feelings towards my children and my wife and I conceal our sexual activity (though not our affection). We feel it is a healthy way to raise our children, whereas it would be condemned as sinful by some others.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Thanx Pako,... I hardly understand myself sometimes, let alone expect you guy's to comprehend,.. all I can do is speak from the heart,...

I sit here at work with these spuratic thoughts,... never really a chance to put together a massive post. My appologies.

Also, please pardon the "breaks",... I feal as though it helps add to the atmosphere of a conversation over the internet,. makes my typin gflow a little easier.


Are you guy's saying that you COULD accept homosexuality? You just elect not to because your loved ones are straight?

 

[Pako]

neon_duke:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=445928#post445928

My definition of Normal relationships are two heterolsexual adults sharing a life together. Gay relationships are not normal. As far as the norm goes, I would say gay or not, disfuntional families seem to be the normal in our current society.

Again, I never said that a christian family is normal, but rather a heterolsexual parents of a family is.

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
*snip*

Are you guy's saying that you COULD accept homosexuality? You just elect not to because your loved ones are straight?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm saying I can accept my son as my son, but I could not condone a lifestyle of a drug addict or homosexuality as an example.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

You seem to be operating entirely out of your preconceived notion of what is 'right',

Yep,. so, I need to ask this question to got along with that statement.


what is NORMAL?

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by lotus350
Why do you think I stay away from you lot

I'm just here for the read

Kel,
I'm fully aware that you can hold your own in one of these if you choose to.
You're just hanging out, waiting to pounce.

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer


Are you guy's saying that you COULD accept homosexuality? You just elect not to because your loved ones are straight?

Please see post re: my cousin (#132).

 

[Duke]

I realize that all my opinions regarding this issue is due in part to my own moraity. I choose not to change my morals for the sake of accepting someone elses decisions. As long as I have my set of morals that I live by, my opinions in this matter will be unaltered. Here's a question for you though: If for some reason you have to put the care of you daughters into the custody of someone else and your choice was a straight couple or a gay couple, while all other aspects were equal, who would you choose and why?

Tough isn't it?

But here again, you are kind of missing my point - I'm not asking you to change your morals. I'm not asking you to be gay. I'm only asking you to see that it could be acceptable - not just tolerable - for someone else to be gay. I'm glad to hear you have decided to love your son unconditionally. I know plenty of people who are not willing to say the same.

In response to your question: all other aspects will never be equal, even speaking theoretically. There would always be one set of potential guardians I would like more than the other, based strictly upon personalities and my impression of their potential as parents - neither of which are based upon sexual preference. I would not seek out the gay couple nor avoid them - I would choose whichever couple I thought could provide the safest, most caring, intellectually stimulating environment for my children. It would be a tough decision - but not made tougher by the homosexuality of one couple.

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by neon_duke
*snip* In response to your question: all other aspects will never be equal, even speaking theoretically. There would always be one set of potential guardians I would like more than the other, based strictly upon personalities and my impression of their potential as parents - neither of which are based upon sexual preference. I would not seek out the gay couple nor avoid them - I would choose whichever couple I thought could provide the safest, most caring, intellectually stimulating environment for my children. It would be a tough decision - but not made tougher by the homosexuality of one couple.

Well that's that then. We now know where each of us stands in regards to this issue. In my example, given the two sets of gardians, heterolsexual lifestyles would be a deciding factor, but not limited to. Certainly, the characterists of the gardians of your choice are noble and I would do the same. I was, however, surprised to see your response that the sexuallity of the couple would have no barring on your decision making process.

 

[milefile]

Holy cow...

I go away for a few hours and have two whole pages of posts to read I'm glad to see the discusion has maintained steam. But it will be a little bit before I can sift through all of your thoughts and respond.

I now have plans for tonight besides rubbing my wife's neck

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by milefile
Holy cow...

I go away for a few hours and have two whole pages of posts to read I'm glad to see the discusion has maintained steam. But it will be a little bit before I can sift through all of your thoughts and respond.

I now have plans for tonight besides rubbing my wife's neck

Stop at Bath and Body works and get some "Myrrh" scented massage oil.
You will thank me later.

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by neon_duke
A child has only the example it sees.


For a very personal example, we are very open about nakedness in our home. We do not go out of our way to make a point of being naked, but we do not make a point of concealing our nakedness either. For some families it would be utterly shocking, purely on moral grounds. What is the harm? I harbor no sexual feelings towards my children and my wife and I conceal our sexual activity (though not our affection). We feel it is a healthy way to raise our children, whereas it would be condemned as sinful by some others.

Whereas we agree to disagree on some things: I am right with you on this point.
1. The best gift you can give your children is to love your spouse. You are the example of a loving relationship to them. You teach your daughters what a good father/husband is supposed to be. Your wife shows them what a good wife/mother is supposed to be.

2. As far as nudity. If they see it at home as nothing to be ashamed of or as abnormal, Then they won't go trying to learn about it somewhere else. Especially, somewhere that isn't safe or in their best interests to be.

As the father of sons, I have fewer worries on that front, but worries just the same. Duke, as the father of daughters...If they learn about nudity, and sexuality at home, knowing that mom and dad will answer their questions honestly and earnestly, there will be less "sexual acting out" and unsafe exploring.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by neon_duke


For a very personal example, we are very open about nakedness in our home. We do not go out of our way to make a point of being naked, but we do not make a point of concealing our nakedness either. For some families it would be utterly shocking, purely on moral grounds. What is the harm? I harbor no sexual feelings towards my children and my wife and I conceal our sexual activity (though not our affection). We feel it is a healthy way to raise our children, whereas it would be condemned as sinful by some others.

Heh... I'm one of those uptight types. Or was anyway. This reminds me of an occurrence in my childhood... We had one bathroom for five people. It was right across the hall from my parent's bedroom. One night I had to go to the bathroom and went up there just in time to see my naked mom scurrying accross the hall. She really flipped out and yelled at me like I'd done something wrong. Other than that there was no nudity in the house. And it has been only in the past couple years that I've been socialized to feel differently about it because of my wife. But even still, I think I'm more uptight about it than most. I exit the bathroom after a shower dressed. I always close the door when peeing. I just like to be clothed. I'm sure it's a security thing. And I'm curious to see how that might evolve after our son is born. I'm guessing I just might loosen up a bit.

Sorry... back on topic.

 

[DGB454]

Pako....On nearly every point....👍

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Gil
1. The best gift you can give your children is to love your spouse. You are the example of a loving relationship to them. You teach your daughters what a good father/husband is supposed to be. Your wife shows them what a good wife/mother is supposed to be.

That is so true - I just need to look at my partner's parents - they battled through a difficult marriage that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (my partner was a 'surprise' to her 20 year old father and 17 year old mother). My partner's fine (she missed out on the hard years), but her brother and sister have severe problems maintaining relationships - her brother particularly, very bad role model in his father I'm afraid.

 

[Gil]

In post #113 I waffled a bit on the nature of the reason that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah.
That caused me to go and do some further study on the subject.
I will, in the vein of producing more study, refer you to Leviticus 18:22, Lev. 20:13, and Judges 19:22
The passage in Judges reads much like the passage in Gen. Chapter 19.
In these scriptures there is no "waffling".
Please also refer back to my post #77. Re: loving the sinner, but not the sin.
It ain't easy sometimes but it is what we have been commanded to do by Jesus. "Love your neighbor as yourself".