The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Crazed_Coupe]

Fixed.

Those kind of people as well.

 

[Joel]

I don't think it's wrong to not want a gay son, but as dylansan said, forcing him to repress it is.

 

[R3D D3V!L]

I don't think anyone wants a gay child but if you do end up having a gay child then you shouldn't try and force them to be something they're not.

 

[Scaff]

You make a good point b, but my religion says that it's a sin. I'll stick with what I was taught.

The self same religious text also says a lot about a number of other things, as this open letter rightly raises questions in regard to.....

On her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

=============

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan.

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus Dept. of Curriculum,
Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

Source - http://allthingsqueer.co.za/archives/religion/60.html


Would you mind confirming that you also condone all these other requirements (most of which come from the exact same book of the old testament that is used to state that homosexuality is a sin).

Now while the above open letter is very tongue in cheek, it does raise very valid points in regards to exactly what parts and how sections of the bible are interpreted and used, particularly in regard to homosexuality.

Religion is often quick to round on homosexuality and use Lev. to confirm the Church's stance on it, however the parts of the same book that clearly (more clearly that the bit about homosexuality in my opinion) condone slavery, animal sacrifice and religious murder all seem to get ignored.



Scaff

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

The self same religious text also says a lot about a number of other things, as this open letter rightly raises questions in regard to.....


Source - http://allthingsqueer.co.za/archives/religion/60.html


Would you mind confirming that you also condone all these other requirements (most of which come from the exact same book of the old testament that is used to state that homosexuality is a sin).

Now while the above open letter is very tongue in cheek, it does raise very valid points in regards to exactly what parts and how sections of the bible are interpreted and used, particularly in regard to homosexuality.

Religion is often quick to round on homosexuality and use Lev. to confirm the Church's stance on it, however the parts of the same book that clearly (more clearly that the bit about homosexuality in my opinion) condone slavery, animal sacrifice and religious murder all seem to get ignored.



Scaff

Good point.
But might I add, a few of those things can get you arrested with todays laws.

 

[Scaff]

Good point.
But might I add, a few of those things can get you arrested with todays laws.

Pretty much every single one of those things would either get you arrested or are considered utterly ridiculous (having to wear your hair in a specific manner or have prefect sight to approach the altar), yet strangely the only one that still gets re-hashed over and over is the one that covers (in less that clear terms) homosexuality.

Why would it be that of all these things only one of them seems to still get rolled out and the others are generally treated as they should be (i.e. are either ridiculous or an offence to the freedom of others)?

This is by the way a genuine question I am asking, and please do not take this as a religious dig, its most certainly not. I am interested to know why one of these is retained and the others are ignored.


Scaff

 

[icelt]

Good point.
But might I add, a few of those things can get you arrested with todays laws.

But the former are "God's laws" and the later the laws of humans. If this is indeed precisely true, how can man create laws that go against those of his creator?

So if you're all for a strict interpretation, then you are morally obligated to follow God's laws, as you see them, even if they are in direct conflict with man's laws.

Have fun in jail though once our law enforcement tracks your murderous slaving arse down. Hopefully you will pick a non-capital punishment state to do your "Godly work" in then you can live out the rest of your days imprisoned but at least with a voice to convince the rest of us to similarly follow what you accepted as universal truth by some book.

Abdicating individual thought and responsibility thanks to symbols printed on paper, awesome morals you've got going there chief 👍.

 

[Caz]

Scaff:
Fear of something different than "you". Is the only thing that comes to mind.
/

Someone mention animal dominance earlier and I use that in discussion all the time. Fornication is animal instinct. In the animal kingdom there is no gay/ straight. Dominance/ procreation.

Homosexual is a human term brought on by others fear and ignorance. It is our generations " salem witch trials" tho since I was growing up ( born 78) my area of the U.S.( new england) has become very tolerable.


For what its worth I am straight and married with children. Oh and a little drunk.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

But the former are "God's laws" and the later the laws of humans. If this is indeed precisely true, how can man create laws that go against those of his creator?

So if you're all for a strict interpretation, then you are morally obligated to follow God's laws, as you see them, even if they are in direct conflict with man's laws.

Have fun in jail though once our law enforcement tracks your murderous slaving arse down. Hopefully you will pick a non-capital punishment state to do your "Godly work" in then you can live out the rest of your days imprisoned but at least with a voice to convince the rest of us to similarly follow what you accepted as universal truth by some book.

Abdicating individual thought and responsibility thanks to symbols printed on paper, awesome morals you've got going there chief 👍.

Personal attack much?
I never said I agreed with all that, in fact I never stated what religion I was.


Also, @Scaff
I think the homosexuality problem keeps up because most highly religious people believe god created a man and a woman, therefore thats the way things should be. Problem is that in the bible, it often does not give a reason for such beliefs.

A lot of Christians should not be as religious, the holy bible is not even in the original language!
It has been changed through time so many times, I wouldn't be surprised if some things were added.

 

[dylansan]

Right, so then in what way does your religion say it's a sin?

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Right, so then in what way does your religion say it's a sin?

I have no officially religion, as I was raised in a highly catholic/Christian house.


I agree with a lot of things in the Qu'ran

And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

 

[Prosthetic]

I don't think anyone wants a gay child but if you do end up having a gay child then you shouldn't try and force them to be something they're not.

I wouldn't care if my child was gay/lesbian/bi.

 

[Scaff]

Also, @Scaff
I think the homosexuality problem keeps up because most highly religious people believe god created a man and a woman, therefore thats the way things should be. Problem is that in the bible, it often does not give a reason for such beliefs.

To be slightly more accurate, man was created first and woman was created at a slightly later point. Given that one could argue that God originally intended for man to be quite happy with man.

A lot of Christians should not be as religious, the holy bible is not even in the original language!
It has been changed through time so many times, I wouldn't be surprised if some things were added.

I would totally agree that the majority of text in the bible has been subject to numerous 're-writes' over its history, which makes it even more surprising to me that people take its text at face value in any way.

I have no officially religion, as I was raised in a highly catholic/Christian house.

Would it be far to say then that you would class yourself as Christian for the sake of this discussion?

I agree with a lot of things in the Qu'ran

And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

The Old Testament says a very similar thing in the book of Lev. (no surprise as the OT, early chapters of the Qu'ran and the Torah are all based on the same work).

Which is exactly why I find it bizarre that people are so strongly convinced in regard to a single part of it, yet totally ignore the rest of it. If its all the word of God then it should all be given the same weight. On the flip-side if you are allowed to be selective about it, then that raises massive questions about what part is the word of God and what isn't and who get to pick?


Scaff

 

[theotherspongey]

To be slightly more accurate, man was created first and woman was created at a slightly later point. Given that one could argue that God originally intended for man to be quite happy with man.




I would totally agree that the majority of text in the bible has been subject to numerous 're-writes' over its history, which makes it even more surprising to me that people take its text at face value in any way.



Would it be far to say then that you would class yourself as Christian for the sake of this discussion?




The Old Testament says a very similar thing in the book of Lev. (no surprise as the OT, early chapters of the Qu'ran and the Torah are all based on the same work).

Which is exactly why I find it bizarre that people are so strongly convinced in regard to a single part of it, yet totally ignore the rest of it. If its all the word of God then it should all be given the same weight. On the flip-side if you are allowed to be selective about it, then that raises massive questions about what part is the word of God and what isn't and who get to pick?


Scaff

I could not take this post seriously.

 

[Scaff]

I could not take this post seriously.

Care to explain why (and make sure you have actually understood what I am posting first).


Scaff

 

[theotherspongey]

It's just that everyone always blames religion (Not supporting it as I am an Atheist) and assumes that Christians are always going to hate homosexuality. However, there are just some people in the world that just have pure hatred for people that are not like them, because they refuse to accept the fact that there are people that are not the same.
Hm...

 

[Scaff]

It's just that everyone always blames religion (Not supporting it as I am an Atheist) and assumes that Christians are always going to hate homosexuality. However, there are just some people in the world that just have pure hatred for people that are not like them, because they refuse to accept the fact that there are people that are not the same.
Hm...

Care to point out exactly when I have blamed religion, and as for assuming Christians are all homophobic, well nothing could be further from the truth.

What I have simply done is ask a number of questions, in a polite and respectful manner regarding another views. Oh and a minor correction in regard to the order that Genesis states Adam and Eve were created by God.

As I have pointed out I have a genuine interest in discussing this, and in furthering the discussion in general.

So far your last two posts in here have added exactly nothing to the discussion. rather you have assumed rather a lot about people (inaccurately it would seem in my case), you have also not answered my question in regard to exactly what makes my post (and questions) so worthy of your immediate dismissal?


Scaff

 

[theotherspongey]

First answer this: Are you Christian?

 

[homeforsummer]

First answer this: Are you Christian?

I shouldn't see why it should matter either way whether Scaff is Christian or not...

 

[Scaff]

First answer this: Are you Christian?

Baptised as such but have never practised in my life, my wife however is a practising Catholic.

Now I strongly suggest that you answer my questions and explain exactly what my personal religious beliefs have to do with anything I've said (other that clearly illustrating that you haven't either read and/or understood my posts).


Scaff

 

[Dennisch]

Did Dr. Laura actually respond to the questions? Or did she ignore it, like a proper religious person?

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I would not classify myself as a Christian since I do not practice it at all.
I was baptized as a Lutheran, and then later was forced to be baptized Baptists from my grandmother.

I would definitely say I hate baptist churches though, too much hate.

 

[FoolKiller]

Gay pride parades are in streets, where I have to change my route because they feel to let everyone know who they like to sex.

I hate those parades, especially the ones held by Macy's on Thanksgiving, or the marches by religious groups, or things like that demonstration I saw in Scottsville, KY on vacation this weekend where they "didn't want to disturb the peace but wished to rid Scottsville of this evil," outside a business owned by a gay man. I live near the Bible belt and I see parades and demonstrations all the time for all kinds of groups. I suggest we end them all or allow them all. Personally, I wish we could all just get along so that every little special interest group would stop their whining and those who disagree would stop whining about the whining.

The way I see it, if everyone was homosexual, there would be no society because there would be no child births.
In the most primitive days of humans in caves, I doubt they would accept being gay especially when they needed kids to make themselves stronger.

The most primitive civilizations did accept things like the alpha male raping whichever female he chose to mate with (natural?), genocide, slavery, and other atrocious things in the name of survival of the fittest. So, by your logic that is the best way to have a strong society, accepting rape, genocide, and slavery. But I know you are reasonable and intelligent person who wouldn't ever accept that concept.

I don't see how you can justify two guys or two girls having sex, but cool.👍

Simple, no one is forcing me to be one of the two guys (or girls in a twisted way) so it is none of my business.

 

[Sir Tuddle]

So uh... If "god" doesnt like gay people and doesnt like honosexuals in general, why do they even exist then?

I know this might be a stupid question and i know opening up a topic to religion usually leads to flames and anger, but thats been lingering in my mind since i was a kid...

 

[homeforsummer]

Personally, I wish we could all just get along so that every little special interest group would stop their whining and those who disagree would stop whining about the whining.

That's actually an excellent way of putting it. If there was no prejudice in the first place then minority parades wouldn't be needed and people really wouldn't have anything to complain about.

I'm sure some people would find something to complain about though.

 

[Owen.C93]

So yeah some people dislike gays because they feel the need to have crude parades, while gays feel the need to have parades because they feel some people don't like them.

 

[homeforsummer]

So yeah some people dislike gays because they feel the need to have crude parades, while gays feel the need to have parades because they feel some people don't like them.

That's slightly off, you're missing the first step:

1) People dislike gay people
2) Gay people have parades to celebrate their freedom of expression
3) People who already disliked gay people dislike them even more because they have parades.

Essentially, if people didn't discriminate against homosexuals in the first place then steps 2 and 3 wouldn't be an issue.

 

[ScouserInExile]

So uh... If "god" doesnt like gay people and doesnt like honosexuals in general, why do they even exist then?

I know this might be a stupid question and i know opening up a topic to religion usually leads to flames and anger, but thats been lingering in my mind since i was a kid...

Same as the "fossils" issue - it's a test of your faith in God.

There are also people who believe that God didn't create homosexuals, the devil did. These people are called "Mentals" - belief in Creationism only qualifies you to join the "Demi-Mental" sects.

I find it fairly astounding that, in this day and age, in a supposedly civilsed society, people still think homosexuality is wrong in any way, shape or form. It's up there with thinking that whites and blacks shouldn't inter-marry for straight-up stupidity.

 

[Encyclopedia]

^ +1

 

[icelt]

Same as the "fossils" issue - it's a test of your faith in God.

There are also people who believe that God didn't create homosexuals, the devil did. These people are called "Mentals" - belief in Creationism only qualifies you to join the "Demi-Mental" sects.

I find it fairly astounding that, in this day and age, in a supposedly civilsed society, people still think homosexuality is wrong in any way, shape or form. It's up there with thinking that whites and blacks shouldn't inter-marry for straight-up stupidity.

This.

The ending "we're different skin" commentary is priceless.