The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Gonales]

Quote from your second post on this thread:



This is what lead to the discussion of freedom of speech.

Yeah, and is it wrong? People think that they can insult everyone without any drawback.

The same rights that mean someone can call you a fag mean you can identify as a homosexual. Take away their rights with laws and you start on the path to taking away your own. Better still, if people thought as you 100 years ago, they'd have banned all talk of the offensive homosexuality and you'd not be allowed to even mention it - much less be one.

Difference is, me saying I am homosexual (fact, not meant to insult nor oppose anyone), and him saying I'm a fag (fact, BUT 100% meant to offend me)... This way the assholes get to say what they want and the people who are offended and just want to be left alone can't do ****.

Reread this and understand what you ask for when you ask that people are legally banned from being rude:

Stop blowing things out of proportion please.
Re-read my post. I never said 'legally banned'. I asked people if they could knock it off. I asked them for a tiny bit of respect towards others. But I guess that's too much to ask for.

 

[Famine]

Yeah, and is it wrong? People think that they can insult everyone without any drawback.

Oh for crying out loud. Yes it's wrong.

Freedom of speech is a right.
The platform to make that speech is not.

People have a right to say or think whatever they want, however rude, insulting, bigotted, stupid or intolerant. That's what freedom of speech is. That doesn't guarantee them freedom from the consequences of their remarks nor a platform from which to make them.


I have no idea where you're getting the idea that freedom of speech means no consequences.

Difference is, me saying I am homosexual (fact, not meant to insult nor oppose anyone), and him saying I'm a fag (fact, BUT 100% meant to offend me)... This way the assholes get to say what they want and the people who are offended and just want to be left alone can't do ****.

A century ago, homosexuality was offensive. Had people thought that offensive speech should be banned a century ago you would not be able to say you are homosexual because it would be deemed offensive to do so.

The price of you saying what you want is that other people can too. The price of banning them is banning communication.

Stop blowing things out of proportion please.
Re-read my post. I never said 'legally banned'. I asked people if they could knock it off. I asked them for a tiny bit of respect towards others. But I guess that's too much to ask for.

You said you would not be opposed to laws against freedom of speech. Re-read your own posts:

I'm not the person who started talking about laws and such, but it doesn't mean I oppose that idea.

You should be opposed to any attempt to limit freedom of speech through legislation. Why? Because it's one step from banning people you think are assholes from speaking in a manner you deem offensive to banning you from speaking in a manner other people find offensive. And yes, some people find the mere concept of homosexuality to be offensive.

 

[sumbrownkid]

This argument is going in circles...

Difference is, me saying I am homosexual (fact, not meant to insult nor oppose anyone), and him saying I'm a fag (fact, BUT 100% meant to offend me)... This way the assholes get to say what they want and the people who are offended and just want to be left alone can't do ****

No they do have an option, it's either offer a counter argument, or ignore them and let people see what douches they are.

A person can say whatever they want since they have the right, but you also have the right to ignore whatever they say too. You don't think I wanna smack people in the face whenever they something anti-Islamic?

 

[Azuremen]

I heard that Indigo facepalm across the North Sea.

I heard the faintest hint of it cross the Atlantic and over the plains, through the Rockies and down into this valley.

Oh, and

 

[Gonales]

Oh for crying out loud. Yes it's wrong.

Your opinion, not mine.

Freedom of speech is a right.
The platform to make that speech is not.

Explain to me 100% what the exact difference is here. The platform to make that speech?

People have a right to say or think whatever they want, however rude, insulting, bigotted, stupid or intolerant. That's what freedom of speech is. That doesn't guarantee them freedom from the consequences of their remarks nor a platform from which to make them.

Which is why we argued all along, because I don't agree to this. People can be immensely offensive to others without any consequence. Do you really think high school bullies get put in jail for getting someone that's gay to kill him/herself? They get a reprimand and it gets forgotten. Someone that gets bullied will not have the strength to defend him or herself...

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that freedom of speech means no consequences.

Experience. Yes there are people who say wrong this that get 'punished'. But there are way to many that don't. Simple as.

A century ago, homosexuality was offensive. Had people thought that offensive speech should be banned a century ago you would not be able to say you are homosexual because it would be deemed offensive to do so.

Did you forget that a century ago is by no means comparable to the current day?

The price of you saying what you want is that other people can too. The price of banning them is banning communication.

I'm not saying what I want. Because the world we live in should not make a difference between homosexuals and those that aren't but still do. If my voice got heard Romney would've been imprisoned for his ridiculously stupid comments and accusations. BUT I know how far I can go...

You said you would not be opposed to laws against freedom of speech. Re-read your own posts:

Yes, I wouldn't be opposed to. I don't know why you are making such a point of this, but the FoS gives some people too much freedom.

You should be opposed to any attempt to limit freedom of speech through legislation. Why? Because it's one step from banning people you think are assholes from speaking in a manner you deem offensive to banning you from speaking in a manner other people find offensive. And yes, some people find the mere concept of homosexuality to be offensive.

Yes, but you're comparing cursing AT someone to saying you're homosexual. That is by no means comparable. I can't choose to be gay or not, BUT they can choose to be arses or not.

A person can say whatever they want since they have the right, but you also have the right to ignore whatever they say too. You don't think I wanna smack people in the face whenever they something anti-Islamic?

The right to ignore them? That's a joke right? Do you know how many teenagers yearly commit suicide because of bullying? Yeah, ignoring is really effective!

Oh, and

No we don't. Nor do we have to make fun, or insult those that are.

 

[sumbrownkid]

The right to ignore them? That's a joke right? Do you know how many teenagers yearly commit suicide because of bullying? Yeah, ignoring is really effective!

No it's not a joke. Bullying is something that also involves physical threats. If it's just words, then ignore them. When fists have to come out, then come out swinging. And yeah I know the number, as two teenagers offed themselves but those two had a more dire situation than some idiot calling you a "fag".

But until then, let that joker say whatever he or she wants to say. Because that's all they can do: just talk.

You need to chill out Gonales. If I had the same view as you on anti-Islamic people then I'd go crazy.

 

[Gonales]

No it's not a joke. Bullying is something that also involves physical threats. If it's just words, then ignore them. When fists have to come out, then come out swinging. And yeah I know the number, as two teenagers offed themselves but those two had a more dire situation than some idiot calling you a "fag".

But until then, let that joker say whatever he or she wants to say. Because that's all they can do: just talk.

You need to relax Gonales. Azureman was just trying to lighten the mood.

You obviously don't know how much words can hurt someone, do you?

 

[sumbrownkid]

You obviously don't know how much words can hurt someone, do you?

Oh I know, ever since when I was little immigrant kid that just moved from Saudi Arabia when I was 6 to Chicago Illinois.

Oh I know when my brother was called "towel head" by a kid from school after 9/11.

So don't give me that crap about how words can hurt someone. I know they do. But I also hardened the ef up and realized they are just mere words.

Maybe you should too.

 

[Danny]

You obviously don't know how much words can hurt someone, do you?

Have you considered that you might just be incredibly sensitive?

 

[Müle]

If my voice got heard Romney would've been imprisoned for his ridiculously stupid comments and accusations.

You are aware that you're absolutely no better than the Muslim theocracy nations that imprison people for being gay, right?

First you censor and imprison people for saying an opinion (regardless of how silly that opinion is), and eventually you could very well be imprisoning people for being straight.

 

[Gonales]

Oh I know, ever since when I was little immigrant kid that just moved from Saudi Arabia when I was 6 to Chicago Illinois.

Oh I know when my brother was called "towel head" by a kid from school after 9/11.

So don't give me that crap about how words can hurt someone. I know they do. But I also hardened the ef up and realized they are just mere words.

Maybe you should too.

You should realise every person is different. If someone says something to me, I always think about it. And I'm not the only one.

I'm not saying you should walk on eggs, (if thats the correct expression), but if someone might get asked to reword themselves, they should react like complete asses like most of the people online will.

 

[Famine]

Your opinion, not mine.

Explain to me 100% what the exact difference is here. The platform to make that speech?

*sigh*

Say someone's in a bar. Say they say, out loud, "I hate fags". That's his right to free speech.

Do you think the bar is obliged to allow him to stay in there? Of course not - and he's tossed out on his arse. He's not guaranteed the right to say what he wants wherever he chooses and not face any consequences.

Which is why we argued all along, because I don't agree to this.

There's two things there. Which are you disagreeing with?

If you disagree with the first, you support the banning of all communication for reasons already stated in this thread. If you disagree with the second then, for some reason, you think "freedom of speech" means "freedom from consequences of saying stupid things". It doesn't.

Experience. Yes there are people who say wrong this that get 'punished'. But there are way to many that don't. Simple as.

Your experience is thus telling you exactly what I said - freedom of speech does not guarantee freedom from consequences of saying stupid things.

Did you forget that a century ago is by no means comparable to the current day?

The point was made that, a century ago, even the thought of homosexuality was offensive. Had people back then thought that anything offensive should be illegal, you wouldn't have the freedoms you have now.

Of course if people now think that anything offensive should be illegal, folk in a hundred years' time won't have the freedoms you have now. But of course it's by no means comparable, right?

I'm not saying what I want.

Yes you are.

Because the world we live in should not make a difference between homosexuals and those that aren't but still do. If my voice got heard Romney would've been imprisoned for his ridiculously stupid comments and accusations. BUT I know how far I can go...

Throwing people in prison for saying things you don't like again. And you accuse me of "blowing things out of proportion" when I said that's what you're supporting by supporting suppression of free speech?

Yes, I wouldn't be opposed to. I don't know why you are making such a point of this, but the FoS gives some people too much freedom.

Really?

You don't know why you saying that [group of people] should be legally banned and thrown in prison for saying [this] is worth making a point of? Despite it being explained myriad times that this

• Sets precedent for banning [any other group of people] from saying [something else]
• Oppresses groups
• Oppresses your chosen group
• Oppresses all people
• Destroys language
• Destroys all communication

You don't get to decide what's offensive. You get to decide what's offensive to you. This is not something that should ever be made into law or there is nothing to prevent other people deciding you are offensive and making laws against you.

Yes, but you're comparing cursing AT someone to saying you're homosexual. That is by no means comparable. I can't choose to be gay or not, BUT they can choose to be arses or not.

Do you think that there is no-one on this planet who finds the concept of homosexuality to be fundamentally offensive? I would assume that you have met such people and cannot possibly deny their existence.

Do you not see that banning what you think is offensive means they can have banned what they think is offensive?

Do you not see that your freedom to exist and express yourself is directly linked to everyone else's freedom to do the same and that trying to curtail it harms you? Really?

 

[sumbrownkid]

You should realise every person is different. If someone says something to me, I always think about it. And I'm not the only one.

I'm not saying you should walk on eggs, (if thats the correct expression), but if someone might get asked to reword themselves, they should react like complete asses like most of the people online will.

I know every person is different, but that's fine. I know what I'm like and I'm gonna handle myself to my best ability. As for you, you can handle however you want to handle it. But you can't expect people to be all sunshine and rainbows everytime they open their mouth to voice their opinion.

I know it's hard, as I had trouble ignoring haters when I was young. But thankfully I've matured enough to understand that people are going say stupid stuff every now and then. So why get so wrapped into their web of hating?

And you shouldn't worry about eggs as you should be eating them, and not stepping on them.

 

[Azuremen]

You should realise every person is different. If someone says something to me, I always think about it. And I'm not the only one.

I'm not saying you should walk on eggs, (if thats the correct expression), but if someone might get asked to reword themselves, they should react like complete asses like most of the people online will.

You are just overly sensitive, in an almost comical way.

You are also completely missing the point Famine has been trying to make regarding free speech.

 

[Dennisch]

And you shouldn't worry about eggs as you should be eating them,

As a vegan, I am highly offended by that. You belong in prison.



Coat. Where art thou?

 

[Gonales]

You are just overly sensitive, in an almost comical way.

You are also completely missing the point Famine has been trying to make regarding free speech.

Maybe I am. Does it matter?

No I haven't. But he seems to be forgetting that it was not me who started about FoS, and it doesn't matter to me what happens to it, if people were a bit respectful to one another.

I know every person is different, but that's fine. I know what I'm like and I'm gonna handle myself to my best ability. As for you, you can handle however you want to handle it. But you can't expect people to be all sunshine and rainbows everytime they open their mouth to voice their opinion.

Maybe that's the problem. I was raised to be polite. And if I would somehow offend someone accidentally to apologize.

I know it's hard, as I had trouble ignoring haters when I was young. But thankfully I've matured enough to understand that people are going say stupid stuff every now and then. So why get so wrapped into their web of hating?

Because it's not just once, you hear this crap. And it's not only me they do it to.

And you shouldn't worry about eggs as you should be eating them, and not stepping on them.

Hmm, what about the cute little chickens that could come out of it?

 

[Liquid]

And you can respect one another by acknowledging and respecting each other's right to say what they feel.

Whether you agree or disagree with what they say is a completely different matter. I find jokes about gingers* and the uselessness of the Welsh language offensive, (sometimes painfully embarrassing, mind) but people are entitled to think what they want. And I take it on the chin, often laugh it off and maintain my own point of view.

It's all about interacting with one another.

*I may have left myself wide open in other areas of the forum following this...

 

[sumbrownkid]

As a vegan, I am highly offended by that. You belong in prison.



Coat. Where art thou?

I'm offended by the fact that you are a Vegan.

You belong in steak house.

Edit: Why does Azureman appear quoted when I wrote that?

 

[Gonales]

And you can respect one another by acknowledging and respecting each other's right to say what they feel.

Whether you agree or disagree with what they say is a completely different matter. I find jokes about gingers* and the uselessness of the Welsh language offensive, (sometimes painfully embarrassing, mind) but people are entitled to think what they want. And I take it on the chin, often laugh it off and maintain my own point of view.

It's all about interacting with one another.

*I may have left myself wide open in other areas of the forum following this...

1: That's exactly what I've been trying to say all this time. But the problem is, people can't.

2: Thinking happens, ofc. But taking verbal assaults on the chin everyday isn't easy. And after politely asking them to re-word their statement, to get even more ****... Thats not only immature, but just not done imo. Which is where people should draw the line for me ^^

 

[Liquid]

Why do you not respect the other person's right to say what they want?

Like I said, it's nothing to do whether you agree with them or not.

 

[Gonales]

Why do you not respect the other person's right to say what they want?

Like I said, it's nothing to do whether you agree with them or not.

The fact if I agree doesn't matter, like this argument with Famine. I don't think badly about him in any way, because he was respectful.

I do not respect freedom of speech when people are being intentionally offensive.

 

[sumbrownkid]

The thing about Freedom of Speech is that people will abuse it. It is the side affect that we just have to deal with. But the beneficiary side of FOS is much greater than the abusive side.

 

[Azuremen]

The fact if I agree doesn't matter, like this argument with Famine. I don't think badly about him in any way, because he was respectful.

I do not respect freedom of speech when people are being intentionally offensive.

The problem is being offended is all relative. Why is your offensive valued more than say mine?

 

[David]

I do not respect freedom of speech when people are being intentionally offensive.

Then you've missed the point of freedom of speech...

 

[jcm]

I'm offended by the fact that you are a Vegan.

You belong in steak house.

And I have the right to consider that a death threat against all vegans.

I also have the right to call the police and ask them politely to arrest you.

The police have the right to fine me for wasting their time.

Freedom of speech is great! Without it, we could all be arrested for thoughtcrime I don't want to be arrested for thoughtcrime, so I won't try to take away the right to speak freely

I'll be honest, I no longer understand what it is this big argument is about.

 

[ShobThaBob]

I do not believe in freedom of speech.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Gonales]

The problem is being offended is all relative. Why is your offensive valued more than say mine?

I didnt completely understand this.

Then you've missed the point of freedom of speech...

Sure, explain. Go ahead

 

[FoolKiller]

Do you really think high school bullies get put in jail for getting someone that's gay to kill him/herself? They get a reprimand and it gets forgotten. Someone that gets bullied will not have the strength to defend him or herself...

The right to ignore them? That's a joke right? Do you know how many teenagers yearly commit suicide because of bullying? Yeah, ignoring is really effective!

Why do I get the feeling that you have some form of personal, emotional attachment to this issue?

You obviously don't know how much words can hurt someone, do you?

You realize you are in a forum with members from all corners of the globe, a very diverse membership. And it is a forum centered around a video game, a car video game. Despite our differences, we all fall into one or more of three categories; gamers, nerds, car geeks. All three of those come with stigma that is fun for mean kids to poke fun at.

Yes, many of us know what it is to have hurtful words said to us. Some also know what it was like to be beat up for being a nerd, being small, being ugly, or being uncool. And some of us know what it is like to be the only person in a room not being a bigot.

If my voice got heard Romney would've been imprisoned for his ridiculously stupid comments and accusations. BUT I know how far I can go...

Why would you have him imprisoned? His words reflected his religious upbringing. Is that worth imprisonment?

too much freedom.

I am unfamiliar with this concept.

Yes, but you're comparing cursing AT someone to saying you're homosexual. That is by no means comparable. I can't choose to be gay or not, BUT they can choose to be arses or not.

It is to people brought up and taught their entire lives to think that homosexuality is a choice made by sinful people. They think you did choose to be gay and act the same as they would toward anyone they deem to be sexually deviant and openly proud about it.


If all you want to say is that you wish people could use a little more decorum then do not make statements like you made about Romney being imprisoned. If you did not wish to argue about freedom of speech then perhaps you shouldn't have responded to the first freedom of speech comment with a dig at the intelligence of those who defend it and argued what it really meant. You dove in and started this discussion by arguing against freedom of speech when if you had been careful about what you said and its meaning you would have said that you weren't suggesting limiting speech but asking that they not be rude.

Your words even had those who agree that it should be a law saying they agree with you about that.

If you don't think it should be a law then say so and stop withe the hyperbole about wanting people imprisoned. If you think it should be then be prepared to argue against freedom of speech as a guaranteed right.

 

[bradykhuber]

my opinion is part of my religion its a man/woman only relationship, but i do not mess with others opinions or choices on there sexuality or homosexuality

 

[arora]

Rights granted by The first Amendment have aided in the repeal of sodomy laws in the U.S. and also continue to be tools used by the gay community to fight against what they consider discrimination.

Quick, lets get rid of the First Amendment