The Le Mans General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter arvin charles
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cnd01
They sold R10's too. Search for kolles racing.
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They only sold the R10s after they moved on to the R15 though.
freshseth83
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F1 teams spend around $300 million each year for the top dogs, Audi spends ~$100 million (a lot of that on marketing) and Toyota has spent about $50 million (with a rumored $20 million sponsorship from Total). Far from obscene IMO
Wrong. The Bentley Speed 8 was not in any way an Audi R8. Read here http://www.mulsannescorner.com/bentleyelleray.html
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- jjaisli
Interesting discussion. I think we have to accept and concede that racing is an expensive sport. Ridiculously expensive. Far above and beyond the cost of most other sports. And aside from F1, DTM, NASCAR and perhaps the Le Mans 24, it doesn't enjoy anywhere near the same exposure as other high profile sports. But it needs money to survive. And lots of of it. Even small, regional series that aren't televised need some decent sponsors to keep it moving. The simple fact of the matter is, when you spend a lot of money to run a sport, and you rely on sponsorship money in one form or another to keep a sport floating, you're going to be particularly susceptible to the health of the economy. When the economy starts to implode, as it did in the US in 2008, or as it began to in Europe in 2011, the economy contracts, there's less money to go around and leisure activities, especially expensive ones, take a hit. In the case of manufacturers, they're particularly vulnerable because they are big corporations, run by a CEO and a board of directors. And if a company is bleeding money, they're going to start to cut expensive indulgences, like running or funding racing teams (I.E. Peugeot (or Honda or Toyota or Ford, etc.))
However that's NOT just true of manufacturers, it's the same situation with privateers. If they can't find the sponsorship dollars, they're forced to fold as well. It's just, as fans, it's felt much more succinctly when the manufacturers leave, because when they enter a series, they generally bring lots of glitz and money and innovation with them. And it forces the privateers to up their game (and spend more money themselves) in order to compete. But this is not necessarily a bad thing. Competition and one upmanship is what drives innovation. We have a sport which as been driven by innovation since it's inception. And it's a constant struggle to temper that innovation with reason. How much is too much? At one point is it 'over the top'? The answers are always in flux. So long as the economy is booming and the money is flowing, the sky is the limit. But when the situation changes the sport falls down and has to pick itself back up. Or crawl along until it can.
If it wasn't for serious money being thrown at motor racing, we wouldn't have tires capable of 300+ kmh that can be triple stinted. Or safety tubs that allow drivers to walk away from wrecks. Or semi-auto gearboxes that rarely break. I could go on.
I'm not trying to suggest that the level of enjoyment from racing rises the more money you throw at it. You can find plenty of exciting racing at your SCCA run offs. But if you want a world class racing series, with technological innovation and not a race doomed to become essentially an 'historic' series from the outset, it's going to require a huge investment. And a continual investment. Just like buying a new road car is essentially a lousy investment because it loses value for every kilometer you drive it, so too is racing essentially a money losing proposition for all but most of the top, the elite teams in motorsports.
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- cnd01
freshseth83F1 teams spend around $300 million each year for the top dogs, Audi spends ~$100 million (a lot of that on marketing) and Toyota has spent about $50 million (with a rumored $20 million sponsorship from Total). Far from obscene IMO
Well, you come up with $100 mil. How many privateer teams have an extra $100 mil just sitting around waiting to be thrown away into a car that will be obsolete in 3 years anyway because of other teams developing better cars? With the world economy in the toilet as it is, manufacturers and sponsors will cut back on useless spending in the execs eyes. That means no more race team.
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- BasedAckbar
That orange gives it a Dutch vibe to it, even though it's French.
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- mustang622006
Nice ride, can't wait to see it on the track, hope they can give Audi a run for their money 👍
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- Furinkazen_54
It's an LMP2...?
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It's an Oreca-Nissan. Almost the same thing they raced last year, with a new paint job. It'll try to take the fight to ADR-Delta/OAK/Starworks/Pecom/Lotus, not Audi.
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- gdwest1
Looks like Scott Tucker will be driving both of his cars at one time. Toe rope perhaps?
Flying Lizard also has no drivers, strange.
From the 991 thread I thought I gathered that Porsche did put out a 2013 upgrade kit after all. Maybe they'll return? Or will Falken become *The* Porsche team?
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- PepsiMaxCrew
Been watching ALMS for quite some time and just found this thread. Heard about the Merger with Grand-Am too.
I have a question as I'm not too clear on the rules package, but for the new prototype class under the merger, is it open cockpit only or are Coupes like the Lola's allowed?
I have a question as I'm not too clear on the rules package, but for the new prototype class under the merger, is it open cockpit only or are Coupes like the Lola's allowed?
Tired Tyres
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But, it would be pretty safe to assume that coupes will at least be allowed (if not required), since they obviously won't chop the tops off the DPs.
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- macospet1
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Still no TRG Astons?
freshseth83
(Banned)
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- freshseth83
Is that how you hold a conversation? Tell a guy in a thread to come up with "$100 million"?
I don't run a racing team. Look, I know you don't wanna talk about specifics, but American ball clubs' payroll is "$100 million"+ each season. How do they afford that? Sponsors, ticket sales, TV deals, merchandise... this just shows the lack of interest in these races because there's no interest on a mass scale like professional ball clubs. Even NASCAR in it's state of decline manages to pay drivers like Jeff Gordon $20 million a year. So don't give me grief about specifics involving money. You're not adding anything to the discussion, you're just shouting numbers with no meaning. Peugeot beat Audi consistently outside LeMans on probably half their budget. Penske took on Audi in ALMS with a customer Porsche Spyder. I can guarantee they weren't spending "$100 million" a year.
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- cnd01
freshseth83Is that how you hold a conversation? Tell a guy in a thread to come up with "$100 million"?
You said Audi spent $100 mil. I was using numbers you threw out there
Moreover, money is VERY relevant in racing. Who can go racing without money? Without sponsors or a rich am driver funding the team, there are no race cars. Peugeot beat Audi with half the budget...you even said Audi spent a lot of the $100 mil on advertising. Come up with $50 mil then. Penske can come up with the necessary funds to be competitive, but notice that he isn't still racing LMP today. Why isn't Peugeot still racing wec? Simple: they would have to spend millions of dollars developing a totally new car because the current one is obselete after 3-5 years. Money is everything in LMP1. 
What if Dyson or Pickett went to the wec? They would be 5 seconds a lap off at least. They might as well drive in reverse. Privateers don't nearly have the budget unless the privateer can get millions of dollars in sponsors ala Penske or Ganassi.
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Regardless off how much it costs, I'm into the racing, not the politics. And the racing is brilliant so I'm happy.
freshseth83
(Banned)
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You said Audi spent $100 mil. I was using numbers you threw out there
Stop talking to me, please! You're an annoyance. Peugeot already had a new 908 developed called the "908 hybrid 4". You're behind on the times and the news. Rebellion, Oak, JRM and Strakka were private P1 teams last year and Strakka achieved a podium, Rebellion achieved a podium, and they had numerous battles for their own 'privateer championship'. You're so wrong it's hilarious. Those teams I mentioned? None developed "a brand new car", they're called customer cars! You're trying to argue for no apparent reason. No one really thinks a team like Dyson will beat Audi. They can't even last as long as LMPC spec cars. Stick to watching Grand Am and have fun seeing teams get screwed over even with equal equipment. You can't seriously expect an open sport to go to privateer teams when factory teams are involved. F1 is the same way, you see Caterham or Marussia or Toro Rosso complaining? You pay to play in the big leagues, bud.
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- gdwest1
cnd, if you want to talk about Grand Am, do it in the Grand Am thread. Don't come here and hate on the sport we love.
Seth, don't feed the trolls.
Seth, don't feed the trolls.
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- jjaisli
I don't know how much they were spending. But it's a bit disingenuous to call that a customer car. Or to say they 'took on' Audi--I touched on that in a previous post. Penske was considered the 'factory' team for Porsche. And Porsche spent a lot of money & resources developing that car. It was, for all intents and purposes, a factory effort and it's design was a game changer for LMP2. It was a similar situation two years later with Highcroft/Andretti and Acura--Acura covered the development costs but did not want the expense and bother of running a racing team. If that, by definition, makes it a customer car, I suppose. But they were closer to works teams in spirit.
It's just my opinion, but Penske isn't running in LMP(2) today because the situation and circumstances fell apart. The Penske Porsche RS Spyders were in a unique position due to the rules, the nature of the tracks & the length of the races. And they were able to take the fight across class lines. But two things happened. Honda entered with their own factory car and were about on par performance wise. And the rules for LMP2 changed. And even the 2nd hand customer Porsche RS that the Dyson & Muscle Milk teams were running were suddenly no longer eligible for LMP2 because they were too expensive. There's been a cost-cap for LMP2 for several years.
EDIT: So if you want to be cynical about Roger Penske's shrewdness, one could say he's no longer competing in LMP2, because they weren't able to spend enough. /tongue-in-cheek.
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