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- gtone339
The Le Mans General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter arvin charles
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- bramturismo
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- race_emhard
I think it was because of a lack of entrants, just like GT1.
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- GTP_RACECAR
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- jjaisli
While that's true, I think it would be more accurate to say, it was mainly due to the pending merger with Grand Am. Compromises had to be made and it made more sense for both political and practical reasons, to mold LMP2 and the DPs into a single class.
If you look at the history of the ALMS over the past 5-6 years, the participation of LMP1 vs LMP2 has risen or fallen for various reasons. Right now, it's just about even.
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So for those who missed Sebring, you're welcome. 
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- gdwest1
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I hate to say it but dissolving LMP1 makes some sort of sense in a series like ALMS. The big factory teams don't race in the series and if they did, they would be the only ones competing for the podium. LMP2 is more affordable, and if people like MM and Dyson and Rebellion have to switch, it makes a better competition in LMP2 instead of having a few measly entries in each. Anyway that's my opinion.
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- gdwest1
The winners here would be ESM. They went from having a long shot at a GT win to competing for an overall win at 2-3 of the worlds biggest endurance events
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- jjaisli
In a way, it does, yes. But it also has to be understood that the ALMS has been a battleground over the years, between LMP1, LMP2, the manufacturers, big name sponsors, and the ACO. And Scott Atherton and Co., have been caught in a rather unenviable position over the years.
When Audi Sport NA joined the ALMS in 2000, it was a huge boon to the series. Along with BMW, they brought with them, the panache of a major manufacturer and the Le Mans winner. As a result, the series gained both notoriety and credability. Not to mention a financial boost as Audi soon became the title sponsor.
Audi continued to keep a presence in the ALMS, and privateers like Champion Racing, who campaigned an R8 for two seasons, continued to enjoy factory support and the series continued to prosper. But in 2006, things changed. Audi began running the Diesel powered R10 and Penske racing entered the LMP2 class with the new Porsche Spyder Prototype. Due to the nature of some of the ALMS tracks and the length of the races (ergo fuel stop and pitstop rotation), Penske sometimes found themselves in the unexpected position of competing for the outright victory. Naturally it didn't sit well with Audi that LMP2 cars were making their new Diesel, Le Mans winning R10 look decidedly ordinary. But that's the nature of racing.
Others took notice and in 2007 & 2008 there were a stream of newcomers in the LMP2 class, including some big names in American racing, such as De Ferran Motorsports, Andretti Green & Fernandez Racing, all hoping to capitalize on the situation and fight for the outright win. And more often than not, they did just that. Those teams also brought with them a level of competition and professionalism that some of the series regulars weren't expecting. It was an exciting time and a great two seasons of racing, with a lot of open wheel regulars suddenly racing LMP cars.
But it wasn't a love fest all around. Especially not for Audi, the series title sponsor. I would have to go back and check specifics, but at some point between 2006 & 2008, the rules for LMP2 cars differed between the ACO and the ALMS. LMP2 was enjoying an amazing resurgence in the ALMS and the LMP2 teams were quite happy that they were running with more power then they could under the ACO rules and the exposure it brought them. Audi obviously wasn't and claimed foul. They had threatened to quit for two years running and in 2009, they did just that, essentially picking up their ball (and sponsorship money) and going home to play, undoubtedly blowing a sigh of relief to retreat back to La Sarthe's long straights and to rules that shamelessly favored their alternative diesel approach.*
At around this same time, the recession was in full swing and sponsorship money started drying up. And many of those same LMP2 teams, who lobbied so hard to keep the status quo, didn't return to the series either in 2009. Again, I would have to check my facts, but I seem to remember some of them waffling until the last minute. We all get angry when the manufacturers disappear, claiming how they're only involved in racing as a marketing exercise, but Andretti and Penske proved to be sand-kicking playground bullies themselves who stomped off when the going got tough. Be it big automotive corporations or the smallest privateer, when it comes to racing, money speaks with the loudest voice.
Although there's been some great racing over the years, especially in the GT category, I think 2009 was really the beginning of the end for the ALMS and it sort of lead the way and opened the window for the merger.
* I don't necessary mean this as a slap at Audi either. They clearly weren't happy with rules that gave the LMP2 cars an unfair advantage, especially at certain tracks. Just as the LMP2 teams WERE quite thrilled with how things were panning out.
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- OrlandoFL GMT-5
- GTP__Jav
My biggest rant over the years have been about the santioning bodies allowing the manufacturers to steer their series, time and time again they have killed every encarnation, iteration and codification of each and every racing series that gives way to the crazy stupid spending, even F1 has been a victim of this to an extent.
The sanctioning bodies need to resist the temptation of big money and stick to good quality racing. But as history shows, that ain't gonna happen!
The sanctioning bodies need to resist the temptation of big money and stick to good quality racing. But as history shows, that ain't gonna happen!
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- jjaisli
Indeed, and I agree. Although in the case I cited, it was a bit more complex. You had a case where two different classes were effectively lobbying against one another, a situation that nobody likely ever expected. And in that instance, the ALMS did exactly what you implied they should, they actually resisted the temptation to change the LMP2 rules as Audi wished, and they sided with the privateers and kept the status quo. And the result was, they ended up getting screwed anyway. By Audi. By the privateers. And mainly by the economic downturn. (Although to be fair, this is very simple way of summing up a rather convoluted situation.)
Anyway, the point I was really leading up to in my previous post, was that aside from Sebring, Road America, and maybe Road Atlanta, the tracks that the ALMS vists, do not really play into the strengths of LMP1 cars, designed for La Sarthe's long straights and high speeds. And when the R10 was hitting tracks like Monterrey or Long Beach or Lime Rock, it wasn't able to stretch it's legs and it fell victim to the lighter, better handling LMP2 cars. I'm pretty sure this is also why you had a LOT of European based LMP1 teams come over for Sebring or even Petit, but they wouldn't stay and contest the whole season.
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- OrlandoFL GMT-5
- GTP__Jav
LMP1 has its place and the racing can be great, the ALMS will prove it this year with Rebelion and Muscle Milk, I have no doubt. But is true place is the WEC where the manufacturers will throw obscene ammounts of money into their programs and take their circus arround the globe to the markets they see as important.
Will Audi pull out as soon as things get too hard? I have a feeling they will, but I surely hope I'm wrong, once Porsche and other big time manufacturers come in the rules will certainly change and we will see Audi's LeMans dominance challenged. Things will be great but for how long?
Will Audi pull out as soon as things get too hard? I have a feeling they will, but I surely hope I'm wrong, once Porsche and other big time manufacturers come in the rules will certainly change and we will see Audi's LeMans dominance challenged. Things will be great but for how long?
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- race_emhard
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- GTP__Jav
Unfourtunately you are right.
Carlos
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Motorsports just needs both and it's very hard to find a balance since both parties have totally different interests. It's just something that will always be. Personally I would like to have more cars in P1, both WEC and ALMS.
I would also like to see Toyota and Audi sell their cars to smaller parties.
I would also like to see Toyota and Audi sell their cars to smaller parties.
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Carlos
Audi did a few yeas back... 2009 I think with an R10.
Although if Audi or Toyota did now it would be pretty pointless considering the regulation changes next year.
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