The Myth Of Car Damage

[Kent]

Hello,

I'm sure we have all talked about car damage before.

However, I wanted to bring up this subject for some of the less discussed reasons.

Specifically...

I would like to address realism in car damage.

Now it seems that everyone wants to see car damage and have it affect their performance in the car.

The question I keep asking myself is-
Why do we want some car damage in the pursuit of realism and not all types of damage?

Sure the off-set frontal crash will leave your car looking bad and driving a little slower, but in all honesty, that is actually going to leave your race car out of commission!
(not just banged up and a little slower than before)

This seems to be the first thing all games over-look in their attempts at realism.

What about flat tires from just barely going off track?
Who here wants to ruin a 100-lap race at the end simply because they send one tire into the dirt?

What about breaking something under the car when we fly over rumble strips?
Do you guys want your car to go out of commission when you straddle the rumble strip and accidentally break any number of exposed objects under the car?

...

So,
I ask all of you...
Do you want more realism in these games?
Do you want this realism to be selective or do you want it to be all encompassing?

Thanks for taking the time to contribute!
(and don't just spam the thread... Post with some heart!)

Finally I just want to mention that I strongly oppose selective realism... All Or Nothing Baby!

 

[munkero]

car damage = less cars = I don't like

 

[YuRiPa]

Well, I certainly would like some realistic damage yes. Like in the Grand Prix series on PC, where you can have transmission probs, oil leaks, water leaks, punctures, engine probs... I once had an engine prob in the last lap of the Italian GP at Monza with that game. Was leading, but finished 6th or so. But that's real. It's frustrating, but it adds to the realism. And if Sony would make it so that you can reach the pits if you drive carefully, then there's nothing big happening actually. As long as AI cars can have these problems too. But to do this with just 6 cars in the race, think cars is too less for that. Think it's best with at least 10 cars in competition. But do this feature (optional or so) in races, and for races longer than about 2-4 hours, don't do it, because that is frustrating indeed. Imagine, last lap of Le Mans 24H... And you can't reach the finish, that's frustrating. But for races of max 2-4 hours length, do it.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Well this is a very hard topic to discuss, GT4 is already selective realism, i mean there is more error margin invovled in gt4 than real life. Certain things are left out like getting stuck in gravel traps, and the way your car handles on grass etc.

But as for damage, well it has to be 'like' real life but dulled down a bit. I really like the damage in V8 Racedriver 2, you can get away with the odd wall tap, and i mean tap not hit. But excessive wall hits and rought treatment warrent damage, you dont want real life damage as it will become too hard, you need a comprimise. Something V8 Racedriver did well imho.

Realism is good yes, but more real = more harder and also harder to master. It is after all a game and not a car sim that teaches racers (like flight sims teach pilots). Gt4 with V8 Racedriver 2 damage is a very good balance of realism and user friendly-not-pulling-hair-out.

 

[krazyboris]

Good point. And what then happens after the race? Is the car a complete write-off, or can you salvage it, even if only for parts.

The question of realism must be put into context, people want visual damage, and some form of anti-wall riding effect implemented, most people do not want to see their 24hr race at the ring' blown in the dying seconds by a silly mistake in the final section (the uphill run after the straight). Then to add further insult to injury, they cant even re-race as their car is now a write off.

Not a simple question/statement to answer, but there is my best shot.

 

[LANDO]

car damage = less cars = I don't like

I agree, also if the cars break the graphics woulnd't be as good as now. I saw Forza car Graphics and I don't like it. Maybe a Damage Display?????????

 

[Small_Fryz]

also i would like to see some of nascars damage in gt4 as well, tyres get to hot they puncture, engine gets hot it overheats and eventually blows up, if the engine bounce of limiter for too long it suffers damage etc. These little things make it fun, and they dont have to be visual just a few gauages near the speedo etc

 

[kamikazekoala]

Car damage in racing games = not needed.

If you drive correctly on the road, you'll never experience car damage. Only when you drive like a wackoo, you'll experience car damage.

For example: Toca Driver 2 for PS2. Only damage I got is from cars driving into me when braking for a corner or not letting them pass. And if I want damage on my cars, I'll play a freakin "car smashing" game. It's the racing that counts in racing games, not making crashes.

 

[FoolKiller]

Actually I don't want any car damage until they fix the AI. I would hate to end up losing because the AI rammed me just because I was running a clean racing line.

Also, if any damage means losing a single car (aside from a few Skylines) then no damage.

As for the notion of cheating by using other cars as bumpers being taken away I don't see that happening. I can easily picture gently drifting against an opponent and then applying presure until they hit a wall or go off the track.

That being said, if they fix the AI and can keep from losing cars then I am for pure realism. I was angry the one time I ran out of gas and just slowly came around. It shoudl be like some of my old Commodore 64 games were, no gas or worn out tires and you drifted to teh side of the road until you exited or the race was over.

If you hit someone or a wall head on and damage the engine block, break, an axle/suspenison, blow a tire, or anything else along those lines the car should just die and you get a DNF rating for your time. You could even show the tow truck come and get me so that I can at least switch tires and hope to regain some time. Of course, now that would require cautions and other things that would really tick us off because it breaks the pace. Then that would also mean that a gravel trap shoudl trap me and so on and so forth.

I believe I have found the problem with "realistic" crash effects while typing this. We will all complain and whine until it is perfectly simulated. If I just want it to be harder to control or look beat up I will play a demolition racer or some NASCAR type game.

So I agree, all or nothing and considering the nature of the fans and the complexities it would require I am betting on nothing.

 

[BMW_M3_GTR]

None of the makers would let PD wreck there cars just for a game. There fore CAR DAMAGE WONT BE ADDED CAUSE ALL THE COMPANYS WOULD SAY THEY CANT USE THERE CARS.

 

[yeti]

Tricky Tricky Tricky...

I quite like banging around the race track and I do like the invincibility of knowing that if I fcuk up I may lose the race but I may not lose my car...

BUT... I like this because that is the way the game is...

I used to also like Colon McRae Rally and it's damage... but that was also very toned down... i.e. you buggered over a shelf and down a hill and you got a small dent in your bonnet got replaced on the track and carried on.... This is also quite entertaining... and you used to play to the very fact that this happened and knew that you could take some knocks and get away with it... but too many would start to harm you.

Then there is real life... which I play with everyday... I know that if I terminally overjudge my car, my ability, someone elses ability, the conditions etc that I will be costing myself a hell of a lot of money and probably pain!!

The real problem I see with GT and damage is that the AI is immune to the situation... I.e. Penalty in Rally is "Damage" in GT4... and the AI doesn't get given them...

SO... the AI Needs to have the ability to get damaged... and it also needs to have the where withall to know that if it gets damaged it's fcuked!!

So given a level playing field then I support damage to any extent... it will modify the way we will play (Probably make us better (but slower)) but will also NEED the AI to know that any false move it makes will affect itself in the same way...

This is the crux of the matter... the playing field of damage must be level...

C.

 

[exhorst]

i think there should be full car damage in GT5. if you slam into the wall, the car should be trashed up and you should have to pay for repairs.
Kent, you hav brought up some very good points, but about flat tyres from going off the track? your tyre doesnt go flat that easily. but you should get damage for cutting across over rumble strips, because it does happen in real life. it would cause people to concentrate more on real pro racing, by overtaking carefully as opposed to just ramming your opponent off the road. Real damage in GT5 would also teach people that cars are not indestructible, but infact very fragile, especially at racing speeds. this would also teach a greater level of professional racing skill

at the very least there should be engine damage and overheating caused by overrevving.

 

[Crayola]

Car damage in racing games = not needed.

If you drive correctly on the road, you'll never experience car damage. Only when you drive like a wackoo, you'll experience car damage.

Try telling that to casuals and xbox fanboys. On gamespot there was some thread like GT4 Vs Forza - and their number one argument was no damage and wallriding tactics. They can't seem to understand that if you dont drive like an ass and dont wallride theres no need for damage modelling anyway. Ah well, I like it without damage but I think the 5 second thing should be on the normal tracks instead of the tight rallies!

 

[markc123]

In GPL, if I go a little wide and kiss the barrier - it bends my suspnsion a bit and maks the car pull to the left and be a little less grippy etc.

If i smack the barrier or an opponent, it rips my wheel off and I am out of the race.

Thats realism.

That wont work with GT4 AI! You would never make a race from the back as they always turn in on you when you have more than enough overlap.

at the very least there should be engine damage and overheating caused by overrevving.

Most of the cars have rev limiters anyway - but bodged downshifts should certainly hurt the car. But agian, getting 2nd instead of 3rd and trying to force the motor way past the limiter should cause severe damage. If they are going to do that, give me a clutch pedal so I can try to react to my mistake.

 

[amar212]

Two important points here:

1. Visual damage should consist of scratches on livery and ability to torn-off the hood and bumpers. Guess some engine modelling should be done then, which leads us to infamous number od Photo-mode pics with hoods torn-off, which I guess it won't happen, no matter as we'd like it to ,

2. Mechanical damage - gearshift damage would do enough of good for all the wall-riding and crashing, as flat tyres would make many DFP carnage during online battles. Still, as people would often brake threir consoles / controllers / wheels after puncture or something similar, I'm pretty sure that damage will be in the next game due to perspective to increase hardware sales up to 1000% .

To be serious, damage should only be well balanced into gameplay and that will do just fine.

 

[FoolKiller]

Try telling that to casuals and xbox fanboys. On gamespot there was some thread like GT4 Vs Forza - and their number one argument was no damage and wallriding tactics. They can't seem to understand that if you dont drive like an ass and dont wallride theres no need for damage modelling anyway. Ah well, I like it without damage but I think the 5 second thing should be on the normal tracks instead of the tight rallies!

Are you talking about the same guys who think that taking a Viper through a 90 degree turn at 100 mph in PGR is not only realistic but cool because you got kudos? I had a friend who tried to sell me on that point until I played against him and shut him up by about 30 seconds because I used proper driving techniques.

That's why I believe it should be all the way or none of the way, at least definitely no push this button to reset car stuff. If it is there the wall rider should be punished accordingly with flat tires, broken suspension, and a DNF.

 

[drfterxl]

you raise some very interesting points
i probably would not change all that much as far as damage
i think that it is fair for all the racers, both human and AI to suffer no damage
because once you include damage you are relying on a computer to randomly damage your car
this will lead to a point where people say "oh the computer is cheating, my car is always getting screwed". well its really hard to rely on the AI to play fair

as for self inflicted damage, ie driving in a wall at 370km/h, i think it would be plausible to suffer some sort of consequence

 

[EGFerio]

I personally think that any damage visual or mechanical at speeds over 80km/h will mean end of game which is unnessary.

Say that they might implement visual damage. It would take too much time to prog. to tell how damage would look from a given set of visuals. Then no one wants to see the same damage appear on all cars. Time on damage system might mean less time on other objectives.

Time penalty, accelerated tire wear & accelerated fuel consumption when off course or hitting objects will be more appropriate in my opinion.

 

[extreme car]

I myself prefer Blown engine than damage on the outside of the car or even transmision, engine, oil leak etc I hate damage on the car it makes your car look very bad on the replay. I really need blow engine so I know the limits of every car 👍

 

[skicrush]

You know, IRL drivers have to take damage seriously and moderate their driving accordingly. If you look at most races, especially the longer endurance races, the fastest laps are the qualifying laps because they have less traffic and they are only pushing hard for a couple laps. The cars would break if they pushed hard for the whole 12 or 24 hours, and as a result, in-race laps are run more carefully, getting the fastest possible time out of the car without pushing it to the breaking point. Lots of cars break without even taking crashing into account! The 12 hours of Sebring was a great example of this. The C6R was leading, and suffered a catastophic brake failure sometime after the 8th hour. The driver managed to slide the car sideways into the tires, and limped back to the pit in time to get it fixed and still finish 2nd. There are always wrecks, but the real problems are when something breaks on its own (tranny, brakes, engine). Especially the lemans races--collision damage is less than half the problem, and I don't think any of us want the PS3 picking at random who to curse with a blown engine or fried tranny. But that's what it would really take to make it real. And besides, what race car actually has metal body panels? They are all composites, and they bounce back or crack and break off and flap in the wind--they don't crumple or wrinkle.

Since this is, after all, a game, Do you really want to have to race a race agian because your car just up and broke? And what about class restrictions? There are 4 classes in lemans (I'm pretty sure, P1, P2, GTS1, and GTS2). Each class has horsepower and weight restrictions, and weight "rewards" (penalties for winning--arguably implemented to even the field) that are applied to each class and the winners of each race. P1 is usually dominated by the Audi R8, and GTS1 has been dominated for the last several years by the Corvette C5R (and now the new C6R. Which, by the way, I'm bugged didn't make it into GT4). Do you really want to have to race an Audi or Corvette to be competitive? I drive the vettes because I'm a vette guy, but I'd be pretty chapped to have to drive it to win if I didn't like them.

So, the question is, how real do you want things? I would really like better outlined classes, having to meet all the real-world restrictions. And I would even welcome BOTH types of damage--but as I've stated, it is always a gamble to drive slower, keeping your car in good shape, and hoping the people in front push too hard and break something or crash. That is a fine line, to intentionally NOT drive as fast as you can, saving gas, tires, and wear and tear on your tranny, engine, and brakes in a hope to be able to pick it up and close the gap if you find yourself behind still with 10 laps remaining. But that is WAY too real for most people. In fact, outside of the types of racing I like (lemans, trans am, and some touring car), it is too real for me! I have no interest in having to understand that for race series I'm not in to. And in my opinion, its all part of the same issue. There simply isn't enough benefit for the one without the other, and there's not enugh benefit for them both together for it to really be marketable.

 

[larrymags]

If you want to make it really real. How about you lose your sponsorship or license if you crash too much?

How about you get a stop and go penalty or even blacked flagged from a race if you bump the other cars too much?

Or, how about you bump the AI to gain position, win the race and then the AI protests and you get the win taken away!

I'm just being silly.....

But, seriously, I think damage would help the game but then again would a lot of people contunue to buy the game if they made it too hard to win because of damage? Most casual gamers take a while to get used to driving games. Having damage be too realistic will frustrate them and the game will only really appeal to the die hard fans.

Don't get me wrong I try to race as clean as possible so that my own experience is as realistic as possible but I can't help thinking that if I lose a race over and over because of damage then I will just be frustrated with the game (especially if I have to pay my own credits to fix the damage).

But then again, I may be pleasantly surprised by the realism of damage. I plan to play Toca Race Driver once I can figure out a way to put down GT4 long enough.

 

[HID45]

Best mix of realism vs playability in terms of car damage must have been in NFS: Porsche 2000/Unlimited/Unleashed. I loved that game and especially the damage modelling. If You crash, there is visual damage and the handling changes accordingly. One can still finish a race after one crash but do it more often and the car will become almost impossible to drive and slow as a snail. Repairing cost money. Sometimes it costs LOT of money if the car is expensive and damages extensive (wow, it rhymes!). That kind of damage modelling I would like to see in GT5.

There's no need for ultimate realism in terms of damage modelling in GT series. I don't want Richard Burns Rally - like (or even Grand Prix Legends - like) modelling in GT. It's all about fun of driving, not about perfect realism.

 

[bmw5150]

None of the makers would let PD wreck there cars just for a game. There fore CAR DAMAGE WONT BE ADDED CAUSE ALL THE COMPANYS WOULD SAY THEY CANT USE THERE CARS.

Some makers just won't care. I can see GT5 coming out with damage, mind blowing amazing graphics, about 150 cars and a dumb AI.

I'll still buy though, and so will every single one of you!

 

[barryl85]

I wouldnt like to see damage in the game - it would just waste the gran turismo series, gran turismo has never had damage and hopefully never will, im not saying this because i crash alot but i think most games with damage look $hit, look at the car range for example, if yous want realism heres realism, gran turismo is based on realism and in order to have damage you will have to be able to fix it so cars like the ford model T where in real life would you get spare parts? and at what price, so what kind of realism is that, if you can crash but not fix! anyway the AI in this game is thick, how would you like to be driving your gt40 and then some daft AI car plows into the side of it???

 

[zerob_cool]

Ha ha. Touche mate (for starting this thread) No, I don't want car damage, especially if the number of cars in the game are sacrificed!!

No game is ever going to be 100% real. Its only when you are ACTUALLY racing in a real car on a track that yo can FEEL the car and thus control skids well, drive at optimum speeds round corners etc. This is when REAL damage should be implemented; when you can do something about it. Its stupid having half-realism and saying its 'real' when its far from it.

 

[MasterGT]

My thoughts about damage boils down to an old saying:

"Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."

Many of you know enough about racing games with damage to know what you would be getting, if it was done realistically. Most people who whine for damage don't have a clue as to what kind of Pandora's Box they will be opening.

Therefore, if damage is to be included in any non-professional racing sim or "game", then damage should be a choice and selected by the player.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[inferno]

Be carefull what you say.
Be carefull what you wish for.
Carefull what you say you might regret it.
Carefull what you wish you might just get it!

Then it all crashes down, and you break your diffuser, and you point your finger but PD's nowhere around. Just wanted one thing, this damage thing, but your tires crumbled and your left with just a thing... Where's the track king nothing!

Damage: I could care less.

Collision Physics: YES!

I dont really care about car damage visual or mechanical, but second only to the handling physics, contact with walls and other cars should be realistic. If I get rammed or I ram someone I want both cars to get unstable. I want wheel rubbing in formula cars to be disasterous, I want off side impacts to set the car rotating, not just slow me down. the screen jitters are a great step in the right direction, but you dont really lose control at all. In real life cars get skittish, tires unload, and smoke flies when impacts occur. Lets have realistic crashes.

 

[Thirdeye]

My take: I think they should have it, but maybe have an option to turn it on and off.

 

[Deondre]

If it ain't broke....don't fix it.
Cause I hate throwing DS2 controllers across the room! LOL

 

[F1GTR]

Don't forget they'd have to take into account the weight of a car ie. An M5 can take much more damage than an elise and it would be easier to lose control after being sideswiped in a light car.

Also in cars with open cockpits what would happen to the driver?Would there be damage to him or would he stay fine? If there was damage it would be intresting if the driver did not survive from a fatal crash hence a GAME OVER would happen.