The New Direction of Gran Turismo

[AJFast12]

In the recent human race trailer, it said, "the game became less about competition and more about collecting cars." While that may be true, i liked collecting many cars. Its like a grandma collecting coupons and old stamps, its honestly addicting. There's nothing wrong with a little competition imo, just hope the GT Community wont get salty from being too serious.

Then it said, "we dont want just another game, we want sport"
There's nothing wrong with wanting more of something. Im not into E-Sports honestly. If im going to watch someone play a game, its either my mom (because she likes to try from time to time) or Youtubers (because its funny)

As a guy who started playing GT back on PS2, this sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Dont get me wrong, i cant wait to play this game and i welcome change, but i feel like old school players or people who liked the casual aspect of GT will be left out to dry.

 

[MisterOne77]

I don't really car to be honest. AS long as I feels nice and i can enjoy it, I'm quite okay with this new direction. Something tells me they won't stay with this sport-focused direction.

 

[queleuleu]

IMO, they couldn't keep up with Forza when it comes to cars modelling. It was OK back in late 90's / early 2000's when a few of weeks (days?!) were enough to model a car. They can't afford a full time army of 3D modellers in-house. The solution is right there, in Vietnam: http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio/ (Forza, Need For Speed, iRacing, Driveclub...) If I were cynic, I would say that GTSport is an ersatz.
Kaz is a romantic with his decision to keep everything in-house but things have changed (for the best or the worst).
GT is my favorite franchise but I can't be happy with a small car roaster, a probably short career mode and no tunning after 4 years of dev from a huge studio like Poly.

 

[sems4arsenal]

IMO, they couldn't keep up with Forza when it comes to cars modelling. It was OK back in late 90's / early 2000's when a few of weeks (days?!) were enough to model a car. They can't afford a full time army of 3D modellers in-house. The solution is right there, in Vietnam: http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio/ (Forza, Need For Speed, iRacing, Driveclub...) If I were cynic, I would say that GTSport is an ersatz.
Kaz is a romantic with his decision to keep everything in-house but things have changed (for the best or the worst).
GT is my favorite franchise but I can't be happy with a small car roaster, a probably short career mode and no tunning after 4 years of dev from a huge studio like Poly.

Your argument kinda falls flat on its back, since 3 of the 4 games you quoted shipped with a lot less cars. Forza is the outlier not the norm.

 

[queleuleu]

Your argument kinda falls flat on its back, since 3 of the 4 games you quoted shipped with a lot less cars. Forza is the outlier not the norm.

Ok.

 

[1241Penguin]

Your argument kinda falls flat on its back, since 3 of the 4 games you quoted shipped with a lot less cars. Forza is the outlier not the norm.

His/her sentence that mentioned NFS, iRacing, Driveclub (and Forza) was in the context of which games have had Glass Egg produce models for them, and not which games have a higher car count than GT. @queleuleu only said mentioned Forza as having a comparable car list to GT. So no, their argument stands true, outsourcing could significantly help boost GT's car roster.

 

[05XR8]

I like the new change, but it's still the same:

- Cr. to buy cars and garage them for use in different races

- tests in whatever capacity(licence, driving)

- beautiful looking replays

- wait, this was about "change" right?

 

[Odyofil]

Career, car collecting, car digging was what made gran turismo, gran turismo.

A typical GT player spenda more times on menus than race.

Mark my words, this game is gonna be a disaster. 10/6 average score, what itll be get. i still buying it anyway.

 

[zzz_pt]

I don't care. We have other options nowadays. That's good for us, not so good for PD.

I'm still buying GTS as, from what I've seen, it will be worth the money.

 

[PorscheHD]

I love GT Sport, love the menus love the gameplay it looks awsome!

The downs,

Car track list

 

[88GTA]

Career, car collecting, car digging was what made gran turismo, gran turismo.

A typical GT player spenda more times on menus than race.

I don't know about the typical part, but I can personally relate to this. Gran Turismo 2 was the first game of the series I bought after playing GT1 at a friend's house. Once I completed all the races, I spent so many hours just buying, customizing and tuning all the cars. It was the only racing game I knew of where you could take a Honda or Chevrolet or Ford that you would see everyday on the street and add an exhaust, engine tuning and for some cars, the amazing race modification. For me, the racing came second to the encyclopedia of cars that Gran Turismo 2 was.

i still buying it anyway.

Yup, same here.

 

[sems4arsenal]

His/her sentence that mentioned NFS, iRacing, Driveclub (and Forza) was in the context of which games have had Glass Egg produce models for them, and not which games have a higher car count than GT. @queleuleu only said mentioned Forza as having a comparable car list to GT. So no, their argument stands true, outsourcing could significantly help boost GT's car roster.

It will but at the risk of a difference in quality for car models (something Forza was criticized for). And even with outsourcing these games still didn't have a large car roster.

I'm also not convinced DC even outsourced.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It's going to be weird I think, but I'm looking forward to it.

At the end of the day, once everyone had done their Career stuff (in my friend group), it was all about online racing anyway.
So I'm crossing fingers for improvements there.

The offline will be different.
I'm not convinced it will be that extensive, which will disappoint.
No doubt I'll miss many old school GT things.
But perhaps the livery editor can fill some of that void.

 

[queleuleu]

It will but at the risk of a difference in quality for car models (something Forza was criticized for). And even with outsourcing these games still didn't have a large car roster.

I'm also not convinced DC even outsourced.

http://www.glassegg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Driveclub_Cars-35.jpg
You can also look at their portfolio, DC is there. Other games don't have a large car roaster because they don't want to. Forza has more or less the same cars than DC plus all the racing cars that you won't find in DC. (there is nothing wrong. I don't expect a classic Le Mans race car in a NFS)
Tbh, I appreciate the level of details in GT. It really shines with the good lighting. It's my opinion, I don't know if I'm right or wrong, I'm simply disappointed by the car roaster at the release after 4 years and probably the 20 years of GT.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

For me the magical thing about GT5 and GT6 was driving and racing the classic cars such as the Cobra, Ferrari 250 GTO and Ford GT40 etc. online against friends in championship races.

When I found out that GTS wasn't going to contain classic content I decided to switch to Project Cars - I might have considered Forza, but my wheel isn't compatible. Most of my friends have now split between Project Cars and Assetto Corsa and I don't know many who are planning to buy GTS.

I think GT has taken a wrong turning. E-Sports is of no interest to me or any of the people on my friends list except a tiny minority who are of GT Academy standard.

Hopefully after a blip, GT will produce a traditional style game again, but this time with great sounds and an extensive career mode with proper, competitive AI. For now I feel I have to skip GTS and continue on Project Cars while looking forward to the release of Project Cars 2.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

For me the magical thing about GT5 and GT6 was driving and racing the classic cars such as the Cobra, Ferrari 250 GTO and Ford GT40 etc. online against friends in championship races.

When I found out that GTS wasn't going to contain classic content I decided to switch to Project Cars - I might have considered Forza, but my wheel isn't compatible. Most of my friends have now split between Project Cars and Assetto Corsa and I don't know many who are planning to buy GTS.

I think GT has taken a wrong turning. E-Sports is of no interest to me or any of the people on my friends list except a tiny minority who are of GT Academy standard.

Hopefully after a blip, GT will produce a traditional style game again, but this time with great sounds and an extensive career mode with proper, competitive AI. For now I feel I have to skip GTS and continue on Project Cars while looking forward to the release of Project Cars 2.

For my mind, people are getting too hung up on terms such as "E-sports" and "FIA".
People compete at sport, at all sorts of levels, every day.
It isn't just some elitist, top level only, thing.

If you don't like online racing, then sure.
But making out it's only for potential GT Academy winners is the wrong approach.


As for offline this time around, it does seem dim from what we know.
Small car roster, small track roster.
AI improvements, physics improvements?
Time will tell.
And I suppose we should wait to see exactly what they have regarding Career type events.
But I'm with you, offline is sounding very limited from what we know.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It will but at the risk of a difference in quality for car models (something Forza was criticized for). And even with outsourcing these games still didn't have a large car roster.

I'm also not convinced DC even outsourced.

There's no risk of a difference in quality. There's no reason a modeler working for one company can't do the same work as a modeler working for a different company. The level of quality is determined by the purchaser making the contract. Any small issues can be touched up if need be anyway. The cars come to life with the shaders and lighting and that's usually where PD has the edge. I don't see much difference in the cars in big games nowadays, especially when you aren't looking at them with a microscope.

 

[sems4arsenal]

http://www.glassegg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Driveclub_Cars-35.jpg
You can also look at their portfolio, DC is there. Other games don't have a large car roaster because they don't want to. Forza has more or less the same cars than DC plus all the racing cars that you won't find in DC. (there is nothing wrong. I don't expect a classic Le Mans race car in a NFS)
Tbh, I appreciate the level of details in GT. It really shines with the good lighting. It's my opinion, I don't know if I'm right or wrong, I'm simply disappointed by the car roaster at the release after 4 years and probably the 20 years of GT.

Interesting. Going to check them out. Disagree about games not wanting a large car roster though. If EVO wanted a small car list, they wouldn't have a lot of DLC.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It will but at the risk of a difference in quality for car models (something Forza was criticized for). And even with outsourcing these games still didn't have a large car roster.

Forza's model quality disparities aren't simply from outsourcing: it's about building off of existing assets instead of starting fresh. Popular examples are the R32 Skyline, Impreza 22B, and NA NSX-R. The PS3 era GT games proved that that sort of issue isn't unique to developers that outsource, anyway.

True, they didn't have large car rosters: but they had lists in similar size to GT Sport's (arguably larger, in terms of genuine variety), with undoubtedly smaller budgets and without the benefit of four years of development.

Interesting. Going to check them out. Disagree about games not wanting a large car roster though. If EVO wanted a small car list, they wouldn't have a lot of DLC.

Business 101: never give away something for free you know you can make money off of.

It's also entirely likely that Evo had a business plan in place before Driveclub even launched, that included DLC as a revenue stream. You don't delay a game and then roll that potential revenue into the vanilla title.*

* - I recognize there were some adjustments to the DLC plan around DC's release, but there still was DLC, is my point.

 

[sems4arsenal]

@SlipZtrEm I'm still not convinced that PD are slow though (which is the point of outsourcing). The small car list is because they've started from scratch. If the premiums (which are close to the quality of games like AC, NFS, DC) were still there, then the car list would've been huge. Them remodeling everything from scratch is why the car list is a bit on the low side.

All of the points mentioned by you, @queleuleu and @Johnnypenso are fair enough. But given Kaz emphasis on quality it's a risk.

 

[AudiMan2011]

I think the "new direction" of GT is unneeded and unnecessary. If PD could simply have nailed the crux of GT's core problems, then they could get the series back on top whilst retaining the classic formula. I feel PD is trying revolutionize something that only needed substantial evolution in core areas.

Also I personally find PD's new "Join the Human Race" catchphrase rather insulting having been a long term legacy player.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@SlipZtrEm I'm still not convinced that PD are slow though (which is the point of outsourcing). The small car list is because they've started from scratch.

Supposedly. In much the same way FM5 supposedly started from scratch in terms of car models. A game that released four years ago, with more cars than GT Sport (and more variety), and was roundly criticized around these parts for just that: its small car list.

If the premiums (which are close to the quality of games like AC, NFS, DC) were still there, then the car list would've been huge.

I agree, but they aren't. They might be, eventually — I can't see any other way the car count will swell to 500 by the end of the game's life, unless that end is a decade away. It's unfortunate, really: the Standards were kept in the PS3 era despite the obvious differences between them and Premiums, yet those Premiums haven't been brought over to PS4, where the differences are minute at best!

Them remodeling everything from scratch is why the car list is a bit on the low side.

Or, it's just that they're a little slow compared to the rest of the industry. It's not an insult: there's just a lot of evidence suggesting as much.

There's also the argument that the car list is so small (and lacking in GT's traditional diversity) by design: as has been discussed, this is a very different game compared to previous GTs, after all.

 

[sems4arsenal]

@SlipZtrEm I'd still would like to know the reason behind the omission of premiums. Is it the HDR? , the support for PBR? or maybe even they couldn't balance such a huge car list.

Are they slow though? They are a huge studio so I feel the actual quality of the cars need to be taken into consideration to measure how slow/fast they are.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@SlipZtrEm I'm still not convinced that PD are slow though (which is the point of outsourcing). The small car list is because they've started from scratch. If the premiums (which are close to the quality of games like AC, NFS, DC) were still there, then the car list would've been huge. Them remodeling everything from scratch is why the car list is a bit on the low side.

All of the points mentioned by you, @queleuleu and @Johnnypenso are fair enough. But given Kaz emphasis on quality it's a risk.

Do you really think they threw away all the 500k polygon wire frames from GT6 and rescanned them for no reason at all? PD is on their historical pace of 40-50 premium models/year. I can't see how that isn't slow given that T10 is approaching 700 cars in this gen already. And again, there's no risk. Lighting and shaders can be done in house. Outside modelers can do the grunt work and the trained techs at PD can touch them up as need be. Do you really think there is that much difference in the wire frames done by glassegg that anyone would notice the difference in a game with GT lighting and shaders?

 

[Earth]

After thinking about it I dont think PD is actually slow. I feel they've decided to model their cars, roughly speaking of course, to a quality level 5-10% better then everyone else. The problem is because of diminishing returns in graphics and the quality of the competition it takes substantially more work to look just a little better then everyone else.

I've always had a personal rule, that if going the "extra mile" takes as much time and effort as the first 20 miles, its usually not worth it. Kaz seems to think it is. His car models look better then anyone's, but he also has the smallest car list. Its probably closer to 100 cars if you dont count the dupes

Im just hoping this new focus on premium quality means everything in the game is at a high level of quality, like GT3, and bloat is gone for good.

btw the traditional car collecting will return in GT7 Im sure, GTS is a full featured spin-off imo, like a prologue, to help fund GT7.

 

[Johnnypenso]

After thinking about it I dont think PD is actually slow. I feel they've decided to model their cars, roughly speaking of course, to a quality level 5-10% better then everyone else. The problem is because of diminishing returns in graphics and the quality of the competition it takes substantially more work to look just a little better then everyone else.

I've always had a personal rule, that if going the "extra mile" takes as much time and effort as the first 20 miles, its usually not worth it. Kaz seems to think it is. His car models look better then anyone's, but he also has the smallest car list. Its probably closer to 100 cars if you dont count the dupes

Im just hoping this new focus on premium quality means everything in the game is at a high level of quality, like GT3, and bloat is gone for good.

btw the traditional car collecting will return in GT7 Im sure, GTS is a full featured spin-off imo, like a prologue, to help fund GT7.

If it's even true and I personally don't find it to be the case, but even if it's true, deciding to go the extra 5-10% means they are taking longer and that's the reason for it. It doesn't mean they aren't taking longer. I'd really like to know where that 5-10% is though.

 

[ImaRobot]

Are they slow though? They are a huge studio so I feel the actual quality of the cars need to be taken into consideration to measure how slow/fast they are.

I would say yes, they're fairly slow, taking into consideration how big the studio is. While they may have a bit better models, you also have to remember they're modeling less than Forza's all together, considering we're able to explore the car fully(for most cars) from the trunk space, to the engine compartment.

In the past 4 years Forza has jumped from 200 to 700~ cars. In the past 4 years GT has produced 170~ cars. PD may have those shaders and material textures down, but considering the actual modeling of the vehicles, the gap isn't that large.

 

[skazz]

If you think about the GT-HD to GT5p to GT5 to GT6 timeframe, which was 7 years, PD managed the following total car counts (as seen in GT6 by the end):

Total Cars: 1.241

• Premium Cars: 447

• Semi-Premium Cars: 152

• Standard Cars: 642

(personally I think that GTP thread was being kind by counting things like anniversary edition paint jobs as separate premium models, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Turismo_(series) lists 388 premiums so the difference is somewhere between the two)

Now GT-HD was 2006 and GT6 was 2013:
GT-HD (2006): 10 premiums
GT5p (2007) : 70 premiums
GT5 (2010) : between 246 and 279
GT6 (2013) : between 388 and 447

So they averaged 55-60 premiums per year during the entire PS3 era. In that respect GT Sport is following exactly the same progression but even slower, with only ~45 cars per year.


I think they were crazy to throw away those GT5/6 premiums, since those models were extremely impressive. But I suspect they deliberately chose to reduce car counts in order to be able to launch their online competitive e-Sports platform with the ability to offer real car differentiation plus balance of performance at launch.


In terms of features, the lack of car parts and tuning means there is no real fun in collecting for me. And the many "tuned" cars which have no real life counterpart is also a downside (let us tune up from the base car if they are not modelled on actual real life race cars!). So GTS becomes about the graphics, photo mode, and driving experience solely. Great if you want to showcase your PS4-Pro and 4k TV, less good if you are thinking about finding a good driving game under the eSports marketing.


In short, I have decided I will not preorder, which is the first GT game in ages to have that distinction for me. I'll wait and see how it matures, what PD has planned post-release.


I should also note that the lack of season pass entitlement in any of the editions means PD has a non-standard plan for DLC compared to the competition. Thinking back to GT5 DLC, I regard this as a bad idea. Give me the surety of regular DLC packs via a season pass and I'd be much more inclined to have faith that the meagre car list will really be extended.

 

[Johnnypenso]

If you think about the GT-HD to GT5p to GT5 to GT6 timeframe, which was 7 years, PD managed the following total car counts (as seen in GT6 by the end):

Total Cars: 1.241

• Premium Cars: 447

• Semi-Premium Cars: 152

• Standard Cars: 642

(personally I think that GTP thread was being kind by counting things like anniversary edition paint jobs as separate premium models, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Turismo_(series) lists 388 premiums so the difference is somewhere between the two)

Now GT-HD was 2006 and GT6 was 2013:
GT-HD (2006): 10 premiums
GT5p (2007) : 70 premiums
GT5 (2010) : between 246 and 279
GT6 (2013) : between 388 and 447

So they averaged 55-60 premiums per year during the entire PS3 era. In that respect GT Sport is following exactly the same progression but even slower, with only ~45 cars per year.


I think they were crazy to throw away those GT5/6 premiums, since those models were extremely impressive. But I suspect they deliberately chose to reduce car counts in order to be able to launch their online competitive e-Sports platform with the ability to offer real car differentiation plus balance of performance at launch.


In terms of features, the lack of car parts and tuning means there is no real fun in collecting for me. And the many "tuned" cars which have no real life counterpart is also a downside (let us tune up from the base car if they are not modelled on actual real life race cars!). So GTS becomes about the graphics, photo mode, and driving experience solely. Great if you want to showcase your PS4-Pro and 4k TV, less good if you are thinking about finding a good driving game under the eSports marketing.


In short, I have decided I will not preorder, which is the first GT game in ages to have that distinction for me. I'll wait and see how it matures, what PD has planned post-release.


I should also note that the lack of season pass entitlement in any of the editions means PD has a non-standard plan for DLC compared to the competition. Thinking back to GT5 DLC, I regard this as a bad idea. Give me the surety of regular DLC packs via a season pass and I'd be much more inclined to have faith that the meagre car list will really be extended.

To get an accurate yearly count you'd have to find out when they started modeling and account for the many duplicates and near duplicates in the list. If you count the start of modeling as 2004 and ending in 2014 when they stopped releasing cars for GT6 it's more like 10 years and without the duplicates, probably closer to 400 truly unique car models.

 

[Vspectra]

Where are my JGTC cars.