The New Direction of Gran Turismo

[Tornado]

• Semi-Premium Cars: 152

152 of what cars? Not to pick on you since I know you acknowledged that they played fast and loose with their Premium count anyway, but Semi-Premium by what definition?

152 cars built to the level of the RUF models (Premium close, with some details perhaps needing to be touched up and with no interiors)? That was the extreme minority out of the the cars I saw people list as "Semi-Premium".
152 cars that were just duplicates of Premium models PD had already made? That was the narrow majority from what I saw people call "Semi-Premium".
152 cars that were standard cars with extremely basic model touchups (shutlines modeled into cars, higher quality lights) but with textures and the rest of the mesh usually unchanged? Because that fell somewhere in the middle in terms of frequency from the amorphous blob of a term that was "Semi-Premium".

 

[glassjaw]

I like the OP's point about the trailer. When I watched it for the first time and it went "the game became about collecting cars," I was screaming at my screen.

"That's cause you made it about collecting cars!"

Besides, isn't that why a great many people loved GT? Because of the ridiculous amount of content? Now that they can't win the numbers game, Sony's message has completely shifted. They've got to justify the massive gulf in content between GT Sport and FM7 some way, right?

It's all smoke and mirrors. I mean, I'm still very excited for GT Sport, but the tonal shift is so blatantly obvious.

 

[skazz]

152 of what cars? Not to pick on you since I know you acknowledged that they played fast and loose with their Premium count anyway, but Semi-Premium by what definition?

152 cars built to the level of the RUF models (Premium close, with some details perhaps needing to be touched up and with no interiors)? That was the extreme minority out of the the cars I saw people list as "Semi-Premium".
152 cars that were just duplicates of Premium models PD had already made? That was the narrow majority from what I saw people call "Semi-Premium".
152 cars that were standard cars with extremely basic model touchups (shutlines modeled into cars, higher quality lights) but with textures and the rest of the mesh usually unchanged? Because that fell somewhere in the middle in terms of frequency from the amorphous blob of a term that was "Semi-Premium".

You'll notice that while I quoted our GTP thread cataloging them, I didn't regard them as premium for the point of view of this discussion. So basically I agree with you.

 

[JohnBM01]

This is going to induce disagreement across the board, but I look at this in two ways. Either this is a new direction for the Gran Turismo series for what has honestly been the weakest link of Gran Turismo (outside of car sounds). Or, this could be Gran Turismo becoming the new ToCA Race Driver series. Gran Turismo, since its inception, has always been seen as an encyclopedia of cars. We all can argue this point to the fullest. How many times have we complained about the choice of cars in Gran Turismo games even with a fairly strong Japanese bias? How many times have we thought Gran Turismo cared more about mostly kei cars and certain Japanese sports cars than certain cars from legendary world class marques? No matter what car lists have been in Gran Turismo games of old, GT opened our eyes to so many different car companies and certain cars we may not know of. I learned of TVR through Gran Turismo 1 as I was just learning about cars. Gran Turismo 4 didn't have Ferrari, Porsche, or Lamborghini; but how many of you heard of Cizeta or Autobianchi or Hommell before GT4? Most people even migrated to Forza Motorsport at the time of GT4 complaining of 50 Skylines and 25 Lancers. And what about the classic "PD doesn't listen to its fans" argument? Well, they apparently listened to me when I mentioned Bentley winning Le Mans 5 times in the first 10 years of the race. They also listened to me in making the chicane at Grand Valley Speedway after the final tunnel wider to allow for better passing.

Having said all of this, maybe this is a new direction that is much needed to keep the series relevant and fresh. The premier gaming franchises look for new ways to stay relevant, and Gran Turismo is surely an elite franchise. One "theory" I maybe have had is that having all of these Premium style cars in GT Sport is a new beginning in a way apart from "Standard" and "Premium" cars in GT5 and GT6. There isn't that sort of prejudice with these newly designed machines as in those games (especially GT5's brutal prejudice of Standard and Premium). Gran Turismo has a great chance to remain relevant with GT Sport I think. Is it a quantum leap? Depends on what you classify as a quantum leap. But if you ask me, Gran Turismo is not going to be forgotten or overlooked with GT Sport. I can't believe I am about to make this comparison, but from GT4-GT6 to GT Sport is almost like Need for Speed going from its classic roots to the Underground type games. I don't know if Gran Turismo NEEDS a change in the formula, but Gran Turismo Sport is a welcome change that could not and should not hurt the series in the long run.

So long story short, tab me for "yes, this is a welcome change."

 

[Imari]

Or, this could be Gran Turismo becoming the new ToCA Race Driver series.

If so, it's starting with a massive disadvantage. There are games out there already that are the new ToCA. Apart from looking pretty, GTS doesn't look to be adding anything to what those games offer.

Gran Turismo has a great chance to remain relevant with GT Sport I think.

This is the problem. Gran Turismo is struggling to stay relevant. When you're in with a chance to stay relevant, that's a problem. You don't see Call of Duty or Battlefield with great chances to stay relevant, they're such solid franchises that they can tank a couple of games and still be relevant. Gran Turismo is 7-13 years out from having made a game that was relevant to the genre.

Other games have found their niches, realising that in a modern market one cannot be a jack of all trades and still be a good game. Polyphony has finally found a focused vision, but it's the most niche market available (online only realistic simulation racing) and even then they really don't offer anything that isn't already available in that space. Once upon a time, Forza was the "Gran Turismo for the Xbox". Today, Gran Turismo is "iRacing for PS4".

I remain slightly surprised that there's enough of a market for one iRacing. I don't think a second will find much traction, and that's before we get into the fact that the iRacing pricing model means that all iRacing players are heavily invested already.

 

[MISFITmusicINC]

As long as they make it more of a racing game instead of a driving game.. think F1 2014 (the only version I owned) or even better. Toca race driver 3. Update graphics and physics and you have a winner. The end all be all of racing Sims. Maybe iracing or arscorsa is like this but my PC won't run Mario kart. So.

 

[HarVee]

Thing is though, GT series' core game-play was always about collecting cars since the very first game. The only reason there was a career mode was because players needed (and still do) an incentive to acquire cars. You do a race, get money, buy another car, do a race again. Rinse, repeat. And before you know it you've collected all of the cars in the game. The car roster expanded throughout the years because the car collecting formula of the first game proved successful.

To say that the series became about collecting cars, is a complete lie because that's what the series always was at its core. I'm honestly quite baffled at the statement. It seems like it was stated by someone who never even played GT. That's certainly a good way to promote a product when you're clueless about what it even is.

As long as they make it more of a racing game instead of a driving game

They are. That's the "new direction" of the series. Gran Turismo was never a hardcore sim racer. The core philosophy of the game was "What if I could drive my car on the television?" not "What if I could race real humans using a video game?" That's why the earlier games had less focus on race cars and more average everyday street models.

Gran Turismo already found it's place in the market in 1997, a place which seemingly proved to be successful if sales figures are any indication. When people think of Gran Turismo they tend to think of hot-lapping a tuned MX-5 around SSR11 or Corvette around Seattle trying to find its limits, tuning it to see how much BHP it can produce, and generally enjoying Gran Turismo's relaxed approach to driving and car culture. They don't tend to think of Esports and competing against other real humans for real prizes in real time race events. The car collecting formula aided in making Gran Turismo appealing. It allowed people that don't even have the money for and/or a major interest in automobiles to enjoy them.

Esports is kind of a niche market that appeals to people who have a large investment and interest in motorsports, but usually it does not hold much interest for the average person. And it's a market that has most of its install base playing on PC's with numerous dedicated racing-oriented peripherals and setups, rather than sitting on a sofa holding a joypad.

 

[Scaff]

As long as they make it more of a racing game instead of a driving game.. think F1 2014 (the only version I owned) or even better. Toca race driver 3.

As has been said, the problem with that is that ground is already well covered on PS4. GTS would need to offer something that really makes it stand out, and apart from the FIA backing it doesn't have anything.

Update graphics and physics and you have a winner. The end all be all of racing Sims.

Not always, but even in these areas GTS doesn't have the clear advantage in terms of graphics its had in the past, and physics wise is now a long way behind.

Maybe iracing or arscorsa is like this but my PC won't run Mario kart. So.

Assetto Corsa doesn't need a PC!

Esports is kind of a niche market that appeals to people who have a large investment and interest in motorsports, but usually it does not hold much interest for the average person. And it's a market that has most of its install base playing on PC's with numerous dedicated racing-oriented peripherals and setups, rather than sitting on a sofa holding a joypad.

PD also seem to by trying to make it appear as if racing eSports is something new for the PS4 as well.

The problem with that is those who do want racing eSport on the PS4 are generally already well aware that its got representation, the WRC series is now on its second full year of one (with the final held at an FIA sanctioned event) and Project Cars has been doing it for years, with a wide range dedicated race series, sponsership, YT channels dedicated to it (with a pretty good standard of driving), etc.

http://www.projectcarsesports.com/

In both these cases they are already further ahead of PD in the eSport regard and while we are still to hear what WRC7 will bring, te plans in place for PCars 2 in this area are starting to come out and its going to be quite a long way ahead of what we have seen for GTS.

What both these titles also do is offer a very substantial amount of non-eSport career, and as such appeal to more that that niche audience.

PD seems to be targeting a well repseented niche, while appearing to believe is going to have a monopoly, and with no plan B.

 

[lancia delta hf]

@SlipZtrEm I'm still not convinced that PD are slow though (which is the point of outsourcing). The small car list is because they've started from scratch. If the premiums (which are close to the quality of games like AC, NFS, DC) were still there, then the car list would've been huge. Them remodeling everything from scratch is why the car list is a bit on the low side.

All of the points mentioned by you, @queleuleu and @Johnnypenso are fair enough. But given Kaz emphasis on quality it's a risk.

If only we had solid proof PDI are slow! PS4 will be just under 4 years old when GTS releases. SMS will have released 2 games by that time, on three platforms. PDI are slow.

 

[sems4arsenal]

If only we had solid proof PDI are slow! PS4 will be just under 4 years old when GTS releases. SMS will have released 2 games by that time, on three platforms. PDI are slow.

What has that got to do with the rate of car modeling?

 

[Lain]

Aside from the focus on trying to create an esports scene for GT, I don't think they're gonna completely reinvent GT and abandon the car collecting aspect. They've just created a marketing campaign that appropriately plays up the competitive aspect to GT Sport... and the line about collecting cars does double duty, since it also downplays an area where GT Sport is behind its competition (car count).

I mean, c'mon... preorders include bonus in-game credits. Car collecting is still gonna be a thing.

 

[lancia delta hf]

What has that got to do with the rate of car modeling?

Well, Pcars2 has more cars, less dupes. So I'd say my post ties in perfectly with the rate of modeling cars.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Well, Pcars2 has more cars, less dupes. So I'd say my post ties in perfectly with the rate of modeling cars.

The cars are not the same quality.

 

[danh25]

Well, Pcars2 has more cars, less dupes. So I'd say my post ties in perfectly with the rate of modeling cars.

Modeling GTS cars is light years ahead of any runner-it's something you do not do fast .... So what are you saying?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Modeling GTS cars is light years ahead of any runner

Er, no.

 

[skazz]

GT has traditionally been greatly ahead of the pack in two things for me:
1. Realistic lighting model
2. Realistic replays with great simulated camerawork (I spent so much time just watching replays in GT5/6 because of this)

The lighting model is still a plus, but the competition is now MUCH closer than they were in the GT5 era. Particularly pCARS 2 is extremely close.
Replays are still a step ahead in GT, though. But is that really a good enough unique selling point?

 

[danh25]

Er, no.

prove it

 

[Northstar]

prove it

The burden of proof is on the person making the initial claim, which happens to be you. So yeah...

For the longest time I would say your statement is true, but T10, SMS and Kunos have closed the gap to the point where the only differences are in the extremely fine details most people won't even notice.

 

[Famine]

"That's cause you made it about collecting cars!"

You can complete GT6 using just 18 cars.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

prove it

It's your claim, so it's on your shoulders to prove it.

GT Sport's car models are slightly better than competitors in terms of accurate button placement and stitching in the interiors. The floor mats, too. There's very little in it when it comes to the exteriors — it's PD's superior lighting engine that separates the game (and even then, it's still not "light years", pun intended).

Plus, so far as we've seen, GT Sport has precisely zero under-hood modelling. It's competitors do do that, so I'm not sure how you came to your conclusion.

 

[danh25]

The burden of proof is on the person making the initial claim, which happens to be you. So yeah...

For the longest time I would say your statement is true, but T10, SMS and Kunos have closed the gap to the point where the only differences are in the extremely fine details most people won't even notice.

In this section of the forum dedicated to GTsport there is a comparison topic, which some everyone here knows I imagine, and I do not see the reason for posting material already in another topic.

In fact, I was puzzled by this answer when we have all that material in that topic

And no, GTsport is far superior: for many polygons, for the use of textures that recreate the materials and for the finer details of the cars ... the other riders have certainly worked well but are still far from that does PD when creates cars in digital format.

PS:
The details that many do not see are those that make a lot of difference in the set.
It is of little importance in a comparison if some do not notice them

 

[Johnnypenso]

In this section of the forum dedicated to GTsport there is a comparison topic, which some everyone here knows I imagine, and I do not see the reason for posting material already in another topic.

In fact, I was puzzled by this answer when we have all that material in that topic

And no, GTsport is far superior: for many polygons, for the use of textures that recreate the materials and for the finer details of the cars ... the other riders have certainly worked well but are still far from that does PD when creates cars in digital format.

PS:
The details that many do not see are those that make a lot of difference in the set.
It is of little importance in a comparison if some do not notice them

Simply repeating doesn't prove it. We're going to need more than that. Can't wait to see cars that are light years ahead because I havent seen any yet.

 

[queleuleu]

Poly, food for thought : "In the long run we are all dead" (Keynes)

 

[Silver Arrows]

It's amazing to see how hard it is for GT fans, some of the more delusional ones, fail to see that aside from market share (Which is what they will trumpet when GT Sport sells 10 million plus copies on name alone, that is inevitable) that GT is losing relevance in a much more crowded sim racing space. This isn't 2005 anymore where the only serious competition is Forza. Even on your own console you have Assetto Corsa and PCARS. GT has not had a decent game that is well liked by all since 2005. That is a long ass time.

 

[nickg07]

No. They totally screed up GT6 by making overly complicated models that they said they could carry over.

In GTS they decided to scrap everything great about GT. The offline nose, the range of card, obscure models, variants. Instead focusing on graphics.

Big mistake imo. The reviews will say, nice gfx, no longevity, online mode low on count and quantity or it will be after a month after release.

 

[Corsa]

Gran Turismos refinement is what keeps me coming back.
The menus, the music, the detail into everything PD touches creates a relaxing experience.
I like seeing my total miles accrued, what my friends have accomplished, the buy a car system, unlocking things as we go along. License tests are fun, livery creation is awesome, I look forward to the new rating system.
I'm not much of a picture taker.

Sadly, that's where it stops for me as I have been utterly ruined by what's possible between feeling the drive Assetto Corsa offers, and the raw in your face racing and sounds of Project Cars.

I wish to not start another drawn out debate, I'm saying I don't know if the racing with be as immersive as others.

That is my primary concern, what is it going to feel like, how does it sound, will it leave my palms sweating after an immersive online run?

I don't know.

 

[glassjaw]

It's amazing to see how hard it is for GT fans, some of the more delusional ones, fail to see that aside from market share (Which is what they will trumpet when GT Sport sells 10 million plus copies on name alone, that is inevitable) that GT is losing relevance in a much more crowded sim racing space. This isn't 2005 anymore where the only serious competition is Forza. Even on your own console you have Assetto Corsa and PCARS. GT has not had a decent game that is well liked by all since 2005. That is a long ass time.

There is a significant gulf in content, only this time around it's not in GT's favor. At the same time, if any series can overcome that and still sell disproportionately more than the competition, it's Gran Turismo.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

The reason why GT Sport is going to have such a low car count, is because PDI is a SMALL studio. PDI only has more than 200 employees, and that is a low number for a gaming studio! Especially for one that is responsible for Sony's most successful franchise! In comparison, Turn 10 has over 300 employees, and they also do something PD doesn't: outsourcing. And because of that, Forza Motorsport 7 will have over 700 cars compared to GT Sport's meagre 150 (or at least, that's the official number, GT Sport could have more cars than that). Now it is true that PD's 150 cars are the most detailed in the racing game industry, with the interiors and exteriors (most likely) having higher polygon counts and better textures. But just like @SlipZtrEm pointed out, these car models don't have any under-hood modelling. Or perhaps there is, and PD is about to unveil a damage model which includes hoods/bonnets flying off the cars. But I'm gonna assume there isn't, because nothing of that sort has been confirmed (yet).

GT will still have that car collecting feel for a part, but it won't be the same as it was before (obviously). There won't be any tuning as far as we know. There won't be any customisation apart from the Livery Editor.

Does that bother me? Yeah, a little bit. Will it stop me from buying GT Sport? No! I've always enjoyed GT games, and this one will be a good one for me! I like the idea of Sport mode, and I've always wanted a more competitive GT!

But I also know this GT won't satisfy everyone. Not everyone wants competitive racing, which I completely understand. Some people, including @Scaff, prefer a serious simulation instead of a more entry-level sim like GT Sport will be. PD can't satisfy everyone.

But what Kaz needs to do, is hire dozens employees for PDI, especially car- and track modellers, as they are becoming too slow to keep up with the competition. :/

 

[JulesDennis]

The reason why GT Sport is going to have such a low car count, is because PDI is a SMALL studio. PDI only has more than 200 employees, and that is a low number for a gaming studio! Especially for one that is responsible for Sony's most successful franchise! In comparison, Turn 10 has over 300 employees, and they also do something PD doesn't: outsourcing. And because of that, Forza Motorsport 7 will have over 700 cars compared to GT Sport's meagre 150 (or at least, that's the official number, GT Sport could have more cars than that). Now it is true that PD's 150 cars are the most detailed in the racing game industry, with the interiors and exteriors (most likely) having higher polygon counts and better textures. But just like @SlipZtrEm pointed out, these car models don't have any under-hood modelling. Or perhaps there is, and PD is about to unveil a damage model which includes hoods/bonnets flying off the cars. But I'm gonna assume there isn't, because nothing of that sort has been confirmed (yet).

GT will still have that car collecting feel for a part, but it won't be the same as it was before (obviously). There won't be any tuning as far as we know. There won't be any customisation apart from the Livery Editor.

Does that bother me? Yeah, a little bit. Will it stop me from buying GT Sport? No! I've always enjoyed GT games, and this one will be a good one for me! I like the idea of Sport mode, and I've always wanted a more competitive GT!

But I also know this GT won't satisfy everyone. Not everyone wants competitive racing, which I completely understand. Some people, including @Scaff, prefer a serious simulation instead of a more entry-level sim like GT Sport will be. PD can't satisfy everyone.

But what Kaz needs to do, is hire dozens employees for PDI, especially car- and track modellers, as they are becoming too slow to keep up with the competition. :/

Well in your opinion PD is a small studio and Turn 10 is not.As far as people working they are pretty much on the same number so your "PD is small" argument is invalid.
Even if there is a difference in numbers (PD over 200 people,T10 less than 300 and not more) see what Kunos have done with 30 guys.That alone should give you an idea why your point is wrong.

 

[sems4arsenal]

200 certainly isn't in anyway a small studio.