The New Garage Queen

  • Thread starter Troux
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Personally I don't see what the fuss is with de-rotoring a RX-7. I love how they look and handle, but I hate how they sound. Especially with a drainpipe exhaust - so buzzy on long trips.

I would rather go with a RB20DET swap. Light, easy to tune and arguably more reliable than a small block Chevy.
 
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with people when they dismiss doing a V8 swap in a Japanese car. There is nothing wrong with it, infact I think its brilliant. And lets face it Rotaries aren't as reliable as the small block Chevy (queue YSS). So an RX-7 owner would actually be trading UP by dropping in a traditional engine. And with the LSx series (among other engines) all aluminum means its lighter than you think so it won't throw off the 50/50 weight of the RX-7.

Quite right, and I completely agree.

I'm all for keeping this RX-7 as stock as possible. Sure, its boring, and it doesn't let you get "cool" points with all the racers... But the awesomeness that would be a truly "stock-ish" RX-7 is worth it, IMO. Personally speaking, I love the '90s Japanese sports cars, particularly ones that are well-kept and in good condition. They're becoming incredibly hard to find, and sticking an LS2 in it (while a nifty idea), just seems so pointless.

So, this die-hard GM/Chevrolet fanboy says N-O. Hell, I even love Mazdas (although, generally not the RX-7), but I call a good car when I see it... And you've got a beautiful ride.
 
Why the hell stop at low number LS engines.



LS7 that thing.
Looked into it more than just about anyone. I'd LOVE the LS7. For right now, my friend plans on keeping his a rotary until it pops, then swapping, so I decided I'm going to drive it as an LS2, save up some more money, then give him the LS2 and upgrade to an LS7 when he's ready. Piecing everything together, it's about $30,000 to get the LS7 in and running, after all the small misc. parts you'll need. While you can find used LS2s all day long for 8-10K w/Tranny and ECU, you have to buy an LS7 new for $13K, which doesn't include accessories, a clutch, tranny, or ECU, or intake, or many of the other things you forget to factor in. For now, I'll be happy being one of the very few LS2 RX7s around.

As for the rotary-V8 debate, there have been very close apples-apples comparisons in weight. A full weight (A/C, PS, etc.) near-stock rotary to a full weight LS1 has added 22-32 pounds in most cases I've seen, depending on the small things. On top of this, it actually IMPROVES weight distribution slightly, especially since most 13B cars run a huge front mount. Now if you're comparing a 20B to an LS1, the LS1 is going to be quite a bit lighter... The LS2 is probably going to be a bit lighter even.

For those uninformed about rotaries, they are actually very comparable to a two-stroke engine. The positives are:
-Smooth acceleration due to more combustion pulses per revolution
-Low center of gravity
-Easier to rebuild out of the car.
-Easier to rev higher in stock form, due to lack of a valvetrain, which is often the limiting factor on piston engines.

The negatives:
-Unreliable (note that this only applies to the turbo cars, which all FDs are. NA 13Bs can go 300K miles)
-Piss-poor gas mileage.
-Sound like **** (personal tastes be damned, this is often an agreement).
-Heat monsters. More frequent pulses means more heat, as well as not having the cooling effect an intake charge has on a piston engine. This goes through turbos and engines faster. A vented hood is considered a reliability mod, not an aesthetic one.
-Poor emissions. The cats on these cars are HIGHLY restrictive due to this, but these restrictive cats also contribute to heat buildup. You may not care, unless you live in an emissions-monitored state.
-Burns oil. Not just when it's bad, but by design, they are expected to go through a quart of oil every 2000 or 3000 miles in perfect, off-the-lot condition.
-Poor reliability. "If you take care of it," "If it's been well-maintained" is crap. The highest I've heard of any FD car going on the stock motor is about 120K miles, and this put everyone on RX7Club in shock and awe. I've seen a handful of cars that are 20K(ish) mile chassis with blown motors. The average life of a "well-maintained" FD motor is about 60K miles on average. That's terrible. Big thing to note here is that this 60K average only applies to OEM engines. Rebuilds/custom builds NEVER, EVER last as long. This is the main factor that drives eevn the rotary heads into swapping for V8s. I remember recently reading about a guy who decided on an LS1 after he went through 3 engines in the same time he went through one set of tires.
-Poor ECU. The stock ECU on these is a little dumb. If you pop a vacuum line off (easy to do), it will go lean, instead of rich, like most ECUs. Also, overboosting (aftermarket exhaust and a cool night is enough) will cause the car to run lean also. Easy to detonate!
-Goes through spark plugs. The system operates on a "waste spark" design, which ignites two of the four spark plugs when unecessary. Complicated to explain why, but cheaper to manufacture. This, in combination with the more frequent combustions of the rotary means you're changing plugs much more often. Also, rotaries use special spark plugs, which cost about $6 each (x4 for a 13B). Thinking of a 3 rotor? Hah, they use a total of 12 plugs. You're looking at about $80 (after tax) just for a set of plugs.
-Hard to find parts/shops for. Enough said, it's a rare car with an engine most people don't know enough about to be touching.
-Blown engine = pull! It's advised to do a compression check twice a year. If you can catch your engine on its way out, instead of before it blows, then you can usually reuse the rotor housings, which will save you money, but... Remember what I said about the engines being easy to rebuild (which many rotary heads argue in favor of)? The difference is, you have to pull the motor out of the car to work on it. You can rebuild a piston engine while it's still in the car. Also, who cares how hard it is to rebuild a piston engine, you don't have to do it every other year!
-Terrible torque. The sequential turbos certainly help, but once you go single (if you can afford it after all the rebuilds), you'll end up having to rev the **** out of the motor to get anywhere.
-Backfires like mad. Some people enjoy shooting flames out of their exhaust, but it's all due to the excessive gas.
-Upgrades are a bit more complicated. Porting the engine, which is similar to cams and some headwork on a piston engine, requires pulling the rotary out. When you blow your motor, you better hope you're financially comfortable, because this is the best time to do some porting and upgrading. Also, these sorts of big upgrades are much more detrimental to daily driveability than than those that occur on piston cars. For example, there are low 9 second Supras, Skylines, Camaros, Mustangs that are daily drivers, but many high 10 second rotaries are seen as a headache to drive on the streets, mainly due to poor idle characteristics.

Hope that clears some things up. The only reason I ever see for keeping the rotary is due to the cult-like passion for the thing, but the V8 swap has all the facts and figures in its favor. Many LS1 FD owners are recording 25-30 MPG, while putting down over 400 at the wheels.



By the way, surprised nobody said anything about my friend's license plate yet. ;) I got a cute little plate on its way, too.
 
Yeah, you might as well port the thing while you're raplacing your seals and whatnot. But then you'll be replacing them even sooner next time, lol. I have a friend with a ~450whp single-turbo street-port FD and I asked him how long the engine would last if he peripheral-ported it (the most powerful port design).

"It wouldn't even last through the summer if I took it easy."

I'm not sure how long it's been since he's rebuilt the thing, but he's always bitching about how expensive it is to maintain. He sure as hell can afford to be tuning his brand new STi... I do know he's gone through a few turbos and melted various things under his hood. It's not even as quick as another guy's slightly modded SVT Cobra. Of course, the FD has all the handling prowess that the Cobra doesn't, but we're talking engines here.
 
Edited for truth.

I can't see any use to swapping in some V-8 lump. American crossbreeds 👎 for life.

then you clearly know nothing about engines then; production, performance, maintenance, upgrading, rebuilding, the whole lot.

opened your mouth, revealed the truth. you and all your anti LS X brethren. thank you for clarifying
 
Well I'm a purist so I love to see a rotary stay in an RX-7, but don't get me wrong I love the rumble of a huge V8 coming from the hood of an RX-7 aswell.
WIN:

Also WIN:

Hell if I were to have it my way, I'd have an FD with a 26B and another FD with an LS1, or hell an LS7.
I find it funny how some people think that putting an LS1 into an FD will drastically ruin the car's balance....Cause we all know that swapping an LS1 into an FD will ruin the car's perfect 50:50 weight distribution to a horrible 50:50 weight distribution......
 
13B dry weight - 240lbs
20B dry weight - 300lbs
LS1 dry weight - 465lbs
LS7 dry weight - 480lbs

CA18DET w/ 5speed - 390lbs
SR20DET w/ 5speed - 490lbs

The LS1 only runs slightly more weight than a 20B with a twin turbo setup (+ intercooler). So even with 100~120lbs more with the LS1, it absolutely does not interrupt the weight balance by more than 1%. So, golly gee a 51:49 weight distribution is so terrible. :rolleyes: And lastly, doing a V8 swap will never ruin the "asthetics" of the car because the exterior and interior of the car isn't changed what-so-ever. The only thing that changes is the noise. I'm fine with you being anti-American drivetrain--you're entitled to your opinion. But the facts are getting skewed here--putting in an LS1 improves the RX-7 plain and simple. Hell, you get better gas mileage to boot! All I see is a win-win-win situation.

Japanese design + American V8 grunt + infinite reliability + daily economical drivability over the rotaty = win
 
I haven't heard of anyone swapping for an LS1 to build a drag car. Either they are drag guys or they aren't. Most of the ones I see are frequent autocrossers. As I said, it increases the weight quite negligibly (I don't know where you're getting your weight numbers from, but those don't make for an even comparison at all), and actually improves the weight balance from front to rear. It certainly doesn't kill the "aesthetic" of the car fromw hat I've seen, either. An LS1 FD will get much more attention and praise than a 13B FD.
 
Heres from a thread on the forums:
Bottom line is mine weighed about 15 lbs more but had a better weight distribution of 50.5/49.5 front to rear and his stock RX7 was 53/47:
--------------LS1 ------- Rotary
Left Front: 684 ------- 718
Right Front: 695 ------- 718
Total Front: 1379 ------- 1436

Left Rear: 705 ------- 660
Right Rear: 645 ------- 618
Total Rear: 1350 ------- 1278
TOTAL: 2729 ------- 2714
% over Front: .505 ------- .53
% over Rear: .495 ------- .47
Another:
These are my notes on LS1 FD's RX7
We weighed the car stock, and the fuel gauge showed 1/2 tank
Stock
LF 729, RF 695
LR 705, RR 692
Total weight, 2821

After the engine LS1 engine/T56 was installed, and the exhaust work was done, the car had the following corner weights, and no fuel was added. Based on what LS1 FD stated, the car was only driven a few hundred feet, and the fuel tank level was the same as stock. The engine had all accessories installed including ac compressor, power steering, alternator, etc, and stock flywheel. About the only thing that was not hooked up were air conditioning hoses, but the ac condensor was installed. The stock battery was replaced with a small Odyssey model 680 battery which weights 15 lbs, and this was mounted in the front of the engine compartment on the passenger's side.
No catalytic converters were installed and Edelbrock shorty headers were used. With the larger and longer tube headers, the weight of the car will change slightly.

LF 748, RF 717
LR, 683, RR 700
Total weight, 2848
 
Thank you for those numbers. I was infinitely curious about the specific numbers from real world projects.
 
13B dry weight - 240lbs
20B dry weight - 300lbs
LS1 dry weight - 465lbs
LS7 dry weight - 480lbs

CA18DET w/ 5speed - 390lbs
SR20DET w/ 5speed - 490lbs

This isn't even adding the transmissions, which I can tell you is a key factor, since the Chevrolet transmissions will easily weigh 150lbs more than the 13B. But, if you consider the turbos, the weights do tighten up a bit. Because a decent sized turbo can weigh 20lbs, and with the additional piping it can be about another 15lbs.



You're right, I know nothing about engines, since I've only frame-off restored a 1977 Landcruiser, helped rebuild a VR6 Galant drivetrain (transmission included, and engine swapped my daily driver. :dunce:

It has nothing to do with the fact that it's a V-8. It has everything to do with the fact that it's completely unnecessary, and kills the "aesthetic" of the car. Especially since it will decrease the handling performance of the car, for gains on acceleration. I will admit that the V-8 will have more power, and will, most likely, have less maintenance issues in the beginning of it's lifespan. But, I don't see any sense in stripping a car of it's solid track performance, for the desire of getting down a straightaway faster. Drag races prove nothing, in my opinion.

PS. Don't ride in on your high horse gallivanting about what you think I know, unless I actually insult you.

i was going to weigh in and call on your bull$h!t figures but i see its already been done.

there is a negligible difference in weight between the LS X series of engines and the rotaries. but you get improved everything. everything. period. the rotary does not have a single advantage over an LS X motor except the ability to rev to stratospheric levels. and i know people who can build you a GM small block with parts from the 70's that will spin at 8000rpm all day. thats not a newer LS engine, thats stuff from 30 years ago.

aesthetics be damned for any car that isnt a show car. reliability. performance. economy. the old saying vis a vis race cars goes something like "you can have it fast, powerful or cheap, pick any two." the LS is picking all 3.

for someone who can "work on cars" you sure don't know much about engines. better? or is it that your anti american sentiment wont prevent you from biting off your nose to spite your pride.
 
Of the two Chevy's I've owned, each failed, with remarkably sad outcomes.

Well then I present to you the typical Chevy small block reliability...

12-08-07_1655b.jpg


That is my 1990 Camaro RS 305ci V8 with the 700R4 transmission. It doesn't smoke, leak, burn oil, and still gets 16~19mpg depending on how I drive it. I can list to you countless small block Chevy (SBC) owners who have repeatedly recieved over 200,000 miles from their engines. All you need to do is visit an Fbody forum, most will tell you they either drove the mileage themselves or bought the Fbody with the mileage already on it. I'm going to apply the same wisdom to the LSx series of engines and say that they will outlast the rotary engines by 3-10x the mileage REGARDLESS of how the engine was treated.

But, having said this and all of us going SEVERELY offtopic maybe we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that. ?
 
But, having said this and all of us going SEVERELY offtopic maybe we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that. ?

You beat me to typing it. I'll gladly agree to disagree. If the world was full of people who had the same opinions, we wouldn't get anywhere in life. We'd all drive boxes to and fro' work with gray outfits and 2.5kids.... blah blah blah. ;)
 
Scorn me if you will, but a car's aesthetics is completely in the eye of the beholder. I see a car as a complete package, and crossing a Japanese car designed with Japanese ingenuity, with something from an American manufacturer with the "bigger is better" ideology seems like a step back in evolution.

Not to continually drag on a slightly OT moment; But have you been to a Toyota or Honda dealer lately? It was the Americans who had to make their cars bigger to continue competing with the Camry and the new Accord... And even then, I think the new Malibu is STILL smaller...
 
Lets let the issue die. Lets talk about Troux's beautiful RX-7 that Mazda needs to resurrect and ditch the hideous RX-8 in a burning flame of disappointment.

Gotta love off-the-wall segways... :lol:
 
im not making it personal. i merely stated, based on your statements, that you knew nothing about engines.
you then retorted that you had experience rebuilding cars.
other people, posted the facts about the weight differences. the reliability benefits. and so on.
and as you didnt back away from your statements re the utter crapness of american engines, i again stated that for someone who can rebuild cars you still dont know much about engines.

heres the sad truth. you are still defending your position using baseless arguments such as "fuel consumption cannot compared...":scared::scared::crazy:

thats just mid boggling and reinforces my idea that no matter how much experience you have rebuilding cars, you dont know much about engines. the rotary is a notorious gas hog. especially the turbos. the LS engines are among the most economic fuel wise for engines thier size. and even for engines with smaller capacity than them. looking at the H3, traiblazer, silverado, all vehicles with the 5.3 liter V8 as an option they have the same fuel economy as the smaller engines they supplant. only the chevy impala showed a marked improvement with the smaller vehicle. the tahoe with the smaller 4.8 liter V8 uses more fuel than the one with the 5.3.
dont believe me, look for yourself.

i even compared the RX8 to the honda S2000 (notoriously high rear end ratio to make up for pathetic torque) and the corvette. all had simlar economy. even the ZO6 has similar fuel economy. i know gearing and weight and other factors play a part, but dude, theres no harm in simply saying "i dont like the chevy engine in the RX7" and leaving it there. when you add empirical data is when some of us will simply do a google search and prove you wrong.

i personally dont like american engines. bigger is not better in my book. bigger is simply lazy engineering, much like you said. bigger doesnt require thought, creativity, use of brain matter. its rather cavemen like in application really.

but when the data empirically speaks for itself (comparing mercedes CLK coupe, BMW 6 series coupe and pontiac GTO, similar weight, power, fuel economy. but two engines are overly complex marvels of engineering while one is the simple pushrod small block.......) nuff said. your experience with chevys might colour your opinion, but its not indicative of all peoples experiences.

im done with this. i'll conclude by saying aside from a puritanical point of view, there is no advantage the rotary has over the LS engines, other than revving slightly higher. period.
 
im not making it personal. i merely stated, based on your statements, that you knew nothing about engines.
you then retorted that you had experience rebuilding cars.
other people, posted the facts about the weight differences. the reliability benefits. and so on.
and as you didnt back away from your statements re the utter crapness of american engines, i again stated that for someone who can rebuild cars you still dont know much about engines.

heres the sad truth. you are still defending your position using baseless arguments such as "fuel consumption cannot compared...":scared::scared::crazy:

thats just mid boggling and reinforces my idea that no matter how much experience you have rebuilding cars, you dont know much about engines.
After taking 2 years of automotive technology training towards becoming an ASE certified technician, I couldn't tell you the weight of a single engine in the world right now. Or the fuel economy of it.

Nothing posted so far required any real knowledge other than using a search engine, making this a very poor basis for judging one's knowledge of engines.



On Topic: Swapping a v8 into a car like the rx7 is a bad idea IMO. Not because the rotary is so awesome, but because of how unique it is. After the engine is gone, it's not an Rx7 anymore.
 

On Topic: Swapping a v8 into a car like the rx7 is a bad idea IMO. Not because the rotary is so awesome, but because of how unique it is. After the engine is gone, it's not an Rx7 anymore.

Wouldn't it be much more unique after that? Besides, I want a performance car. If I wanted to base my mods on "being different" I'd stick with Hondas or something.
 
it's about $30,000 to get the LS7 in and running, after all the small misc. parts you'll need. While you can find used LS2s all day long for 8-10K w/Tranny and ECU, you have to buy an LS7 new for $13K, which doesn't include accessories, a clutch, tranny, or ECU, or intake, or many of the other things you forget to factor in.

What, has no one wrecked a Z06 yet?
 
Wouldn't it be much more unique after that? Besides, I want a performance car. If I wanted to base my mods on "being different" I'd stick with Hondas or something.
Not in my eyes. Putting a conventional v-layout engine in place of the rotary makes it that much closer to any normal car.
 
Well, IMO, the $15K over the shelf price for an LS7 is quite cheap... Particularly when you look at other V8s that make similar amounts of power, from say AMG, that are about four times as much.
 
A buddy of mine has a blue FD, simliar to that, with some big silver Volk rims. The car looks great without the spoiler. Really sleek and fast looking.
 
Well, IMO, the $15K over the shelf price for an LS7 is quite cheap... Particularly when you look at other V8s that make similar amounts of power, from say AMG, that are about four times as much.

Actually, they're only 13K, but the problem is, they're being compared to LS1s, which can be found for as cheap as $1500 with all the accessories a crate engine doesn't include, and by the time you're at $13000, you're probably near 1000 HP or over. I would rather pay the premium for the LS7, but it's just not in my best interest right now. I spent the extra on a good shell instead.

As for the spoiler debate, I don't like them without spoilers, but I don't care for the stock spoiler much. Eventually, I'd go GT-style.
 
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