The No Driving Assist Tuner Challenge

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FastAShecK

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The No Driving Assist Tuner Challenge

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Intro
This is a Challenge a little bit different then the norm. Focussing on Tuning Driver Assist Free Tunes for Drivers to have a great platform to learn or simply get better at Driving with all the Driving Assist Turned off. IMO all the assist in GT5 do is remove control from the Driver, while yes its easier to push cars around the track the personalities of the cars gets buried in the assist. Even running ABS alone has a drastic effect on the behavior of the cars, running it turned off brings the characters of the cars to life.

Driving all Assist turned off the control is all in your hands and feet, no more of the game trying to interpret what you want the car to do sharing control with the inputs and its own idea of what you want, often times they are not the same thing. Regaining full control allows us to learn how the controls fully impact the car going around the track and allow us to improve our skill to a greater degree.

While I don’t know all the details exactly, over the patch history there have been improvements to the physics that have us at a very good place currently. The grip/slip dynamics I believe have been much improved and this has made driving completely assist free much more exhilarating and enjoyable.

The Tires for the Challenge will also be restricted. We will be running tires no stickier than Sport Soft. Tuners may mismatch tires, but they have to be at or less than Sport Soft.

Cars will be Tuned up to 525PP, this should make parts chosen an important factor. Tuners will have to raise the PP in the best way they can to get good handling with fast times.

Goal
The Goal is to get more people to at least try out Assist Free driving in a competitive format and hopefully after all is said and done a few online rooms with these cars driven like this will open up for some challenging racing. I also believe this may be helpful to those aspirating to be on GT Academy. I believe we are driving higher PP cars with a much greater degree of assist regulation that should make the GT Academy Time Trials seem like a walk in the park. We are going to be using ONLY Road Going Production Vehicles, no Racecars, RM, even Tuner Cars, and Tuner Package cars (Like the ARC Viper) are not allowed. There is also going to be a Down Force restriction, limiting Down Force to Stock wings only allowing default wing adjustability if the car has the option.


Additional Details
I will allow Tuners to have 2 car submissions to the challenge. This is for a few reasons, one being to add diversity to the field so if there is any 600pp go to cars that come out, the Tuners will have the ability to submit a different car that they feel would be a great experience for the crowd, but not necessarily the fastest car for the challenge. Only 1 Tune required though.

Drivers must drive each car twice; the second run of each car must be done in the reverse order of the first. This is to account for us simply getting more familiar with the track. The first car run often is not driven to the same degree as the last simply because familiarity and confidence at the track have gone up since it was driven.

The Location

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Nurburgring GP/F this Track has everything we need to challenge our driving skills. A great variety of corners, a few serious hairpins, that first straight leading to the hairpin will be a scary and difficult corner, but overcoming and mastering it will boost driver confidence greatly This is meant to be somewhat challenging..

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Rules

Tuners
Only Road going Production Vehicles allowed (No Racecars of any kind, no Tuner cars and no cars with Aftermarket Performance packages like the ARC Viper) preferably, but not restricted to Premium cars, so power mileage and break in are easy to match.

The Drivers will be driving with the Driving Assist Turned Off; please we must Tune our cars this way, and not just hope the Drivers will be able to handle the car with the Assist turned off after.

Cars must be fully broken in with Fresh oil when being PP Checked, a MAXIMUM of 525PP is allowed.

10% MAXIMUM allowed Power Limiting (setting value of 90% no lower) to meet PP restrictions

Sports Soft Tires are the highest rated tires allowed, mismatched configurations can be used.

The GTAuto wing will now be allowed

Tuners are not allowed to be official Drivers, BUT are required to submit a Hot Lap time achieved with the Tunes they submit, to give an idea of the Tunes abilities and a target for Drivers to shoot for.

Once posted, the Tuner may NOT update the Tune, this is to avoid drivers having to run multiple times in one Tuners car having to redo test each “update”. So be sure your tune is finalized when submitted, the Submission Post is NOT allowed to be edited. It being edited by the tuner for any reason will disqualify the car.

Drivers

GTPlanet OLR Rules and Regulations Apply

I request Drivers take a 100% Stock (only get an oil change) Brand new 370Z out for a 10 to 20 lap session with all the driving assist turned off before jumping in the Tuned cars, this will get you a little bit familiar with the Assist settings before jumping in the Tuned Cars for test driving.

Each Driver must give an honest attempt to spend an equal time in each car to give a fair analysis, running each Tuned car a minimum of 2 times, if more it has to be a even number. The order cars are driven must always go in the reverse order for the even sessions. This way the car driven first has a fair shot after the Drivers are getting familiar with the Track, Tune and No Assist Settings.

Give each car a minimum of 5 to 10 laps per session.

Run the entire competition with the Driver Assist Settings Turned off, it may get frustrating at first, but one you spend some time getting used to it driving will begin to flow like music.

Please Submit a Mini review of each car tested, please have consideration when critiquing other peoples work, a little courtesy will go a long way.

Driver Assist Settings Must Be as follows for Tuners and Drivers

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Submission Deadlines

Tuner Submission Deadline is Sunday April 7th 12 midnight EST

Driver Submission Deadline is Sunday April 21st 12 Midnight EST


How to win
Average times will decide the winning Tuner Fastest Lap the winning Driver, but a Drivers Choice Award will be awarded to Tuners to give drivers the opportunity to pick their favorite or easiest driving Car/Tune to be commended.

P.S.
I encourage people to post as many times as possible and as early as possible this will give other drivers something to shoot for.
This is my first post challenge of this type, this will be updated with suggested improvements and all details will only be finalized at the Competitions Official Launch This Sunday Night. I will attempt to make this fair and organized.
 
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What PP?
Also why the no GT Auto wing rule?

have a 480PP Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe '99 on Sports Hard tires that is a very good drive, but it has a GT Auto wing helping to keep the rear in check.
Also you have listed a limit on the use of the power limiter which is good, but what about Ballast?
 
What PP?
Also why the no GT Auto wing rule?

have a 480PP Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe '99 on Sports Hard tires that is a very good drive, but it has a GT Auto wing helping to keep the rear in check.
Also you have listed a limit on the use of the power limiter which is good, but what about Ballast?

600PP forgot to put that in THANKS! This will have room for improvement on some Sports cars, but allow some less out the box sports cars to get in the field. I find Stock most cars that have near 550PP already handle quite well on Comfort Tires, for the use of Sports tires to be justified and the event to be challenging, I went for 600PP.

No wing to avoid the use of down force compensation during tuning, it will increase the difficulty factor, but I figure The Tuners here are up for the Challenge.

I would hope some of the Top GTP tuners would participate to get some quality work in the field.

ballast is open add weight if you feel it will help.
 
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600PP forgot to put that in THANKS!

No wing to avoid the use of down force compensation during tuning, it will increase the difficulty factor, but I figure The Tuners here are up for the Challenge.

I would hope some of the Top GTP tuners would participate to get some quality work in the field.
At 600PP with no after market wings allowed your not likely to see much more than some GT-R R35s and a couple other super cars with adjustable downforce stock.

Your competition but a lower PP would be more likely to get you a wider selection of cars. It would also be much easier for those learning to drive with no assists to deal with and reduce their possible frustration.
 
I think that finding test drivers may be the challenge. In our latest FITT Challenge we had a total of five test drivers and two of us were also tuners. You will need to recruit the three non tuners that we had and maybe find Ronald and bring him out of retirement.
 
I was hoping for the Drivers to have an interest in the attempt to get some driver assist free time in cars with a bit of competition. If its out of the norm for all participants to run these Driver Settings, it will serve to level the playing field a bit.

600pp is a general area I figure is good on Sports tires, any less PP I would consider switching to comfort series tires.

I will have to take the points presented under serious consideration

Edit
The GT-R Is a Heavy car and with ABS at 0 that weight is a serious amount of moving mass, some other cars MUCH easier to handle withe all the assist off (some will surprise you) The usual cars used for PP specific challenges MAY not turn out to be the best option here. This is where the secondary car submitted comes in play. If the GT-R turns to be the go to car for Tuners, hopefully they have the want to release a tune for a much different secondary car.
 
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Think your preference in driving and tire selection is a bit extreme for the average player but best of luck.:cheers:
 
Think your preference in driving and tire selection is a bit extreme for the average player but best of luck.:cheers:

With the intended goal in mind what would you recommend for this area of regulations and what are others opinions, maybe an acceptable middle ground will atract more drivers attention, and interest.

I was under the impression sports tires were much more widely used by highly regarded drivers here.


The use of a wing may indeed get more cars in and I'm considering changing to allow the wing. As mentioned the details wont be finalized until Sunday.
 
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Look at the Nurburgring PP Laptime thread here in the tunning forum for typically accepted tires for use with a given PP when ABS and Aero are allowed.

With Aero allowed you can probably run one grade lower tires without causing excessive frustration for tuners and test drivers. Past that or with no Aero allowed only the more extreme and hard core types are likely to be interested.
 
Look at the Nurburgring PP Laptime thread here in the tunning forum for typically accepted tires for use with a given PP when ABS and Aero are allowed.

With Aero allowed you can probably run one grade lower tires without causing excessive frustration for tuners and test drivers. Past that or with no Aero allowed only the more extreme and hard core types are likely to be interested.

link please

mid playing GT
 
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=260349

600PP is generally considered the point that Race Hard tires are the norm.
F.I.T.T. recently did a shootout during the 2.10 update that effectively ran 600PP cars on SS tires with ABS1 and Aero. Considering the struggles for most with those restrictions, dropping to SM tires, no Aero and no ABS would be quite extreme.

Can't imagine trying to get my Jag I used in that shootout even close to drivable on SM tires with no Aero. Even with the wing it would be an absolute beast to try and handle on those tires as it would be trying to rip them apart every time you gave it the slightest bit of power, not to mention the issues of controllable braking and general lack of grip in turns. On a side note the Jaguar in question, XKR Coupe '10 can't even reach 600PP fully modified without adding the wing to it. That's a 1360Kg, 764HP, 674ft-lb Torque car by the way.:crazy:
 
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=260349

600PP is generally considered the point that Race Hard tires are the norm.
F.I.T.T. recently did a shootout during the 2.10 update that effectively ran 600PP cars on SS tires with ABS1 and Aero. Considering the struggles for most with those restrictions, dropping to SM tires, no Aero and no ABS would be quite extreme.

Can't imagine trying to get my Jag I used in that shootout even close to drivable on SM tires with no Aero. Even with the wing it would be an absolute beast to try and handle on those tires as it would be trying to rip them apart every time you gave it the slightest bit of power, not to mention the issues of controllable braking and general lack of grip in turns. On a side note the Jaguar in question, XKR Coupe '10 can't even reach 600PP fully modified without adding the wing to it. That's a 1360Kg, 764HP, 674ft-lb Torque car by the way.:crazy:

All of the points you make are excellent and I'm taking it all into consideration even if no immediate action has been taken.Looking over and considering how best to proceed.
 
I'm in, i'll enter my yellow bird. It's stock with no ballast, only engine and chassis refresh. I've add LSD and suspension and gearbox only. It's 531PP and drive like a pilot dream car with Sport medium.

Sorry but i'll not be able to test. I'm working out of home during the week, i'll carry my PS3 with me but i have to learn again to drive with DS3 :ouch:. My playseat will stay home this time and will wait for me to play 2 week-ends per month.

Have a good night everybody.


1987rufctryellowbirdpor.jpg
 
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So we're allowed to enter 2 cars? Hell yeah, sign me up twice. :D:tup:

We were all talking about an ABS:0 shootout in the FITT thread so this is really nice timing. 👍
 
All of the points you make are excellent and I'm taking it all into consideration even if no immediate action has been taken.Looking over and considering how best to proceed.
Think there are very few production road cars which with your restrictions on no tuner/specialty models that can actually reach 600PP. I know of a couple but they definitely wouldn't be competitive around Nurb GP/D with a R35.
 
Think there are very few production road cars which with your restrictions on no tuner/specialty models that can actually reach 600PP. I know of a couple but they definitely wouldn't be competitive around Nurb GP/D with a R35.

Thanks Guys for jumping in on this, remember all details wont be finalized until Sunday night. Please have a little patience while I try and make this enjoyable and competitive.

What I'm considering is adjusting the parameters, leaning to maybe a 500pp for the Sport mediums, or going for 550pp on Sports Soft, based off the Lap Time leaderboard posted from another event coupled with allowing the GTAuto wing should have it not so extreme, and get more cars in the field.
 
Thanks Guys for jumping in on this, remember all details wont be finalized until Sunday night. Please have a little patience while I try and make this enjoyable and competitive.

What I'm considering is adjusting the parameters, leaning to maybe a 500pp for the Sport mediums, or going for 550pp on Sports Soft, based off the Lap Time leaderboard posted from another event coupled with allowing the GTAuto wing should have it not so extreme, and get more cars in the field.

I'd personally enjoy 500PP with Sport Medium tyres a lot more, especially as that allows FF cars to be competitive. 👍 That said, I have no issue with 550PP on Sports Soft, since it allows some more exotic machinery to enter. 👍
 
Since tuners will be allowed 2 entries why not have 2 classes, a 500PP SM and a 550PP SS?
Thinking I've got a couple cars already that would be pretty fun to drive with those even if they wouldn't be the fastest.
 
I am interested to be both Tuner and Driver :) I don't use any assist after all :D, but my PS3 is in pieces right now, waiting for a new thermal paste, hoping I can get it done sometime next week, if I can get my PS3 running again, put me in for both, I'll post again to confirm. I have Cizeta and Countach '88 tuned for comfort soft at close to 600PP, I can do some little tweaks for sports tires :D. Can I use my own controller sensitivity ? or it has to be 0 like the picture ...

Regarding brake balance, I suggest it to be separate from the tune and free to choose by driver, as with no ABS, brake balance is crucial and different inputs used requires different BB ( stick vs wheel )
 
Since tuners will be allowed 2 entries why not have 2 classes, a 500PP SM and a 550PP SS?
Thinking I've got a couple cars already that would be pretty fun to drive with those even if they wouldn't be the fastest.

Usually I'd agree, but I like the idea of being able to tune 2 cars for the same class. Like Fast said, it allows us to enter a car to win and also a car for personal enjoyment. 👍

Unless you want to combine the two ideas, so you can either tune 2 500PP/SM cars and 0 550PP/SS (or vice versa), or tune 1 car for each.
 
Usually I'd agree, but I like the idea of being able to tune 2 cars for the same class. Like Fast said, it allows us to enter a car to win and also a car for personal enjoyment. 👍

Precisely what I'm after with that.

Unless you want to combine the two ideas, so you can either tune 2 500PP/SM cars and 0 550PP/SS (or vice versa), or tune 1 car for each.

I think this would be a lot of work for people involved making things very complicated. Scary to think about. Maybe if this takes off and the idea is well received among participants it can be explored running 2 class in the same event each class with 2 cars per tuner.

I'm taking everything into consideration and waiting to officially make changes so I adjust the rules as little as possible. Please keep the suggestions coming :)
 
Yeah probably best to start off small and expand if there's demand for it later. 👍
 
No aides is a bit over rated in my opinion. All that we allow in most competitions is ABS 1 anyway. So aren't we just talking about the same tuning with a less aggressive brake balance? Not sure that I would approach tuning any differently without the use of ABS?
 
No aides is a bit over rated in my opinion. All that we allow in most competitions is ABS 1 anyway. So aren't we just talking about the same tuning with a less aggressive brake balance? Not sure that I would approach tuning any differently without the use of ABS?

In a nutshell, this for me.
 
To give better perspective about tunes made by no ABS driver, take a look and give some driving time on some of my 2.11 tunes at Deadnutseven Tunes :

Deadnutseven Tunes

These tunes were made with consistent lap time in mind ( Deadnuts way :) ), and highly optimized for racing at Deadnutseven and not just for time trial or driving feel. Best to try the tune and drive it at the track it was made for, drive it without ABS, see if you can get into the lap time target consistently, most of the tune can get a bit lower than the target time on a good lap. My recommended tunes :

Scion FR-S 12' - 410PP on Trial Mountain Reverse - CS, target time 1:45 by Ridox2JZGTE - can get lower than target, my PB is 1:44.759.

MASERATI GranTurismo S '08 - 425PP on Trial Mountain Reverse - CS, target time 1:45 by Ridox2JZGTE - can get lower than target, my PB is : 1:44.9xx - went lower to 423PP at pre race warm up.

MINI COOPER S Countryman '11 - 415PP on Laguna Seca- SH, target time : 1:44 by Ridox2JZGTE
- can get lower than target, PB was around 1:43.8xx

I do not specify BB for these Deadnuts tune, I wrote the BB I used when tuning, I recommend a BB for ABS 0 wheel user and BB for ABS 1, feel free to use any of them or your own BB that you are comfortable with.

Try these with no ABS, grip real, tire wear off and of course online ( lounge ):D Check the notes at the end of the tunes for tips and infos of how to get the most of the car on the track.

Until someone drove my tune the way it was made : no ABS, please don't say it's the same tuning done with ABS + less aggressive BB, the driving style alone would make tune varied differently :D The Scion and Maserati are a blast to drive at Trial Mountain Reverse and I am sure a good ABS 1 driver would make into target time without breaking a sweat :sly:

The difference I think is not simply only in brake balance, my BB mostly in high range - sometimes even higher than most ABS 1 driver, and most of tunes submitted for FITT, well .. always end up last or given worse review in driver's choice. Ronald for example seems to had a hard time driving my tunes done without ABS.

@FastASheck : If you have free time, give these tunes some laps, just to give you an idea, the sort of tunes made by no ABS driver ( I think I may be the only one here in GTP who made all my tunes without ABS ) , the PP are pretty low so it would be easy to drive and there's a target time, so it will be fun too. Give me some feedback too if you don't mind :cheers:
 
@Ridox2JZGTE - I have noticed a few things about your approach in the last few FITT challenges. You obviously believe that your tuning is solid and you do not need any feedback or suggestions for improvement. For every bit of feedback given, you seem to have a justification for why the tune is still great or you mention that the tune was done with no ABS as the reason that it did not fit the test driver. When asked what is different about ABS tuning, you tell people to drive your tunes to feel the difference. Well, I cannot find the difference. I really don't see what would be so different about an ABS 0 tune vs. ABS 1 other than brake balance. Can you help describe what needs to be different to really make ABS 0 work? Just curious. Maybe I can learn something here?
 
@Ridox2JZGTE - I have noticed a few things about your approach in the last few FITT challenges. You obviously believe that your tuning is solid and you do not need any feedback or suggestions for improvement. For every bit of feedback given, you seem to have a justification for why the tune is still great or you mention that the tune was done with no ABS as the reason that it did not fit the test driver. When asked what is different about ABS tuning, you tell people to drive your tunes to feel the difference. Well, I cannot find the difference. I really don't see what would be so different about an ABS 0 tune vs. ABS 1 other than brake balance. Can you help describe what needs to be different to really make ABS 0 work? Just curious. Maybe I can learn something here?


You said you can't find the difference, may I ask if you ever tried my FITT tune entries with ABS 0 and your own BB ( this crucial ), then see if you can drive it the same way as you were with ABS 1. Try the latest entry of mine at your own Shootout ( wagon FITT ). My 525PP Stagea, it was tuned with ABS 0 and tested by a friend with ABS 1. For me that car rotated just fine into any corner with aggressive trail braking and throttle play. But most testers with ABS 1 gave different impression that what I experienced when tuning it, including you.

For now, , may I suggest to give those 3 Deadnutseven tunes some laps at the track they were made for with no ABS, then with ABS 1, you should feel the difference, the car will need different driving style, most of my no ABS tunes will be more prone to understeer when driven with ABS 1, and brake balance is up to you, as in my opinion brake balance is driver oriented not tune/car oriented. That's why I often make tunes at Deadnutseven, where BB is up to the driver not governed by the tune as we are all mixed ( ABS 0 and ABS 1 drivers racing together in a similar lap time car )

My tuning approach leads to some unique settings, mainly in LSD and wheel alignment, check my LSD settings, camber, toe and ARB on those 3 cars I mentioned above, they usually would not fit well for most ABS 1 tuner/driver.
If you still can't find the difference, then why test driver like Ronald in the past has been having hard time driving my car even with his own BB to suit his wheel setup ( both ABS 0 and ABS 1 ). The majority of his review always revolves around understeer and difficulties under braking.

I never said about how my tunes were solid or do not need improvements, I am still learning to make tunes for ABS 1 drivers, trust me, it's not easy as I always tune without ABS and I have driving styles that grows without ABS since day one ( release day ). It is what it is when most testers having hard time driving my no ABS tuned cars, they are different than how most ABS 1 car drive.
You will get even better idea if you tests my Touge Hot Version entries shootout hosted by MAt123, those cars were tuned with no ABS and no compromise for ABS 1 testers - high BB, and aggressive LSD + suspension settings for Eiger and MT Akina. And the tests score are always above 90 out of 100 :D.


Maybe you should try to enter a FITT Shootout without using ABS, then you'll see how hard it is, even setting a BB that works for both ABS 0 and ABS 1. This should be a good shootout to try.

To make ABS 0 works, one should drive with ABS 0 regularly until proficient ( rarely have wheel lock ups ), driving style mainly in corner entry and braking will be the main concern when migrating from ABS 1 - very noticeable on high power FF car on low grip tires.

Stock cars are great for learning, I always practice no ABS at Daytona Road Course, with 500+PP cars and Comfort Medium, that's my method to be smooth on throttle and brake. I often challenge myself driving wild car in stock form like Cizeta V16T, YellowBird, McLaren F1 and MP4, Lancia Stratos, LeMans classic race cars ( Ford GT40, Mark IV, Jag and P330 ), sometimes tuned Muscles with close to 600PP. All on comfort medium, some of the GTP member here have been in my practice room - they were all capable with ABS 0, and they said it's a totally different approach in driving compared to ABS 1, I think tune will be the same.

For those who never seen my driving without ABS, this is an example - sorry if a bit off topic with a video of my hybrid car :

Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 with Twin Turbo kit, engine tuning stage 3, custom LSD and suspension, stock transmission, all other upgrades, weight reduction.

The car has 800+HP/6800rpm and 630+ lb ft/6300rpm and weight around 1300+kg, with comfort soft tire and over 610PP, still can be pushed hard at Spa :) V8 rumble and turbo = EPIC. Time is 2:44.019. BB 9/6, grip real, no ABS.

 
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