The No Driving Assist Tuner Challenge

[dr_slump]

Not a braking assist... you lost me there.

 

[FastAShecK]

Why argue about brake balance when its what suits you an how you like to brake on entrance an mid corner, remember that abs is a steering assist not a braking assist, their are so many different styles of braking that require different differentials an brake balance, i use a DFGT an the pedals arent great but thats what you pay for.. my brake balance is usually 3/2 i brake sometimes early for the corner but only very little an maintain brake during mid corner if needed be an then apply throttle known as trial braking.. or you can cadence braking when you apply braking an throttle together but this is only for in cases of losing control.. you can use a higher BB but what that needs is a higher decel for straight line an car setup to support that, with higher BB you need to brake late turn car mid corner an fire it out.. very much like abs1... The best tuners know driving styles an what we like in terms of steering lock etc.. a car tuned by yourself to suit your style will only benefit you i guess..

I trail brake also with high (er) BB I still do most of my braking before I start turning, and I reduce my braking as I increase my turning angle, after I apex I do the opposite and increase throttle as I reduce my turning angle... Never holding brake mid corner at that point I'm getting back on the throttle straightening the wheel. No the Decel does not need to be higher and you don't have to brake late, where do you get that from? I can run the track with a decent 2:08.4XX without locking up one tire the whole lap in my Beemer.

This video works and is a great display of Trail braking SS Tires no ABS over 700PP with my high BB and a DFGT and in that lap at Indy I get pretty deep on the first corner and at the end of other mid track straight. I don't see any Brake late hammer out, it's not my style. I'm a smooth driver as much as I can, smooth on throttle and smooth on brakes.



Grab a car with 700PP fit some Sport Soft Tires on, keep that ABS 0 and see how smooth you got to be to nail fast laps with my higher BB on a DFGT...

I think you failled to see my point. I basically feel input device will impact BB settings used, soooo... Thanks for that advice on braking but if your staying on the brake mid corners, it's YOU that's braking late, you need to keep in mind your sharing your turning ability with your braking ability and while you can do both, you can never do both at the same time as well as you can do one on its own

 

[GTPMcBride]

Lol i dont need to have a contest or who can do what lol am just saying their different ways of braking an not one person brakes the same, i didnt say i didnt brake late i stay on the brake by tiny amounts.. lol well thats how i brake an its my style an it suits me ive only ever used abs 0 so its normal..

 

[FastAShecK]

Lol i dont need to have a contest or who can do what lol am just saying their different ways of braking an not one person brakes the same, i didnt say i didnt brake late i stay on the brake by tiny amounts.. lol well thats how i brake an its my style an it suits me ive only ever used abs 0 so its normal..

I dunno, you came out with the braking lesson as if just saying you trail brake wasn't enough. All trail braking is is staying on the brakes as you turn, turning while your still braking = trail braking. Your example of I must brake late while turning (because I use higher BB that for some reason forced me to use high deccel)was funny, because that is deep trail braking, but still trail braking. I also can only go by what you write, and you wrote "only maintain a little brake mid corner if need be" If the case need be, then you have hit the brakes too late, mid corner you should of already done all your braking and at this point hitting your turning max.

You still failed to see my point. I never commented on how driver style will impact BB, it's not relevant to my point. My point is BEYOND driver style, input device will ALSO impact BB setting what I don't understand is HOW this seems to be so hard to understand, like seriously... Why on earth is it so crazy to believe input device will have an impact on settings??? Holy crap, like seriously, THAT IS MY OPINION allow me to have it thank you very much... If you disagree fine, post up something tangible to dispute the facts I've posted but please stop with the BS...

 

[GTPMcBride]

I mentioned braking late with high BB an this wasnt reffered to you but only an example of different style where you do all your braking in straight then square the corner of as like you had abs1 on.. sometimes i do maybe break late but thats me reaching my limits an if i dont crash then i aint trying hard enough

 

[FastAShecK]

I mentioned braking late with high BB an this wasnt reffered to you but only an example of different style where you do all your braking in straight then square the corner of as like you had abs1 on.. sometimes i do maybe break late but thats me reaching my limits an if i dont crash then i aint trying hard enough

No you wrote """""you can use higher BB but what that needs is a higher Decel, with high BB you need to brake late and fire out""""

Seems like you need to be a little more clear, because """with high BB you need to brake late and fire out"""" sounds like your saying with high BB you need to brake late and fire out.... Excuse me you meant something different, next time say what you mean...

 

[GTPMcBride]

What am refferring to is that you said something about 0/0 or whatever bb it was, is like abs1 so you didnt JUST mention about INPUT DEVICES you said in a round about way how they cheat abs0 an thats harsh.. i understand what you mean but just chill out you provide a good place for no abs drivers, an as these little things get fixed it will get better.. but you need to chill as i aint against you or anyone.. peace out

 

[GTPMcBride]

Lol i wont even watch that hybrid its against my religion lmao

 

[FastAShecK]

Also, WHAT!?!?!? You reference braking late and firing out is where you do all your braking in a straight line then square the corner? That doesn't make sense lol if your doing all your braking in a straight line and then square the corner (as if with abs?) that doesn't sound like your braking late and firing out at all.... Just forget about it Bro, I got your message, driver style will impact setting used, thanks.

Lol i wont even watch that hybrid its against my religion lmao

Wouldn't yah just love to drive that bad boy in GT5..... I have...

 

[GTPMcBride]

Lol nice photo's thou i dont think PD had this in mind lol.. you either love it or hate it..

 

[Davis]

Wouldn't yah just love to drive that bad boy in GT5..... I have...

That last picture makes me want to dump one of those engines in an RX-7 TC. Now that would be fun!

 

[FastAShecK]

That last picture makes me want to dump one of those engines in an RX-7 TC. Now that would be fun!

RX-LS7 is quite a blast, American Muscle with Japanees Handling.

 

[FastAShecK]

Nice, UnBricKeD my JBPS3 whoot whoot. Save game is gonzo, gonna have allot of work to do getting things back in order but, got my main system back up without spending 6 hours on the road

Not much to say on the competition, the testers didn't test all cars. I had no help with the sharing of my car so it's not been driven lol you guys basically did what you wanted, so call it however you want...

 

[dr_slump]

Not much to say on the competition, the testers didn't test all cars. I had no help with the sharing of my car so it's not been driven lol you guys basically did what you wanted, so call it however you want...

Well, I finally got an unmodified M3 GTR and am building it to your specs right now. I could theoretically put it on share, it's on another account though. And you'd have to extend deadline by about 1 week or so.

One question: Aftermarket rims, yes or no?

EDIT
Another question:

Deadline for testers will be extended a week to aloe more iltime and more testers to join.

So... is it the 21th as listed in the OP or one week later?

EDIT 2:

I post my test results, although I only did 1 run per car instead of the planned 2.

My testing results:

Drivers choice are ranks and NOT points!!!


VTiRoj - NSX Type-R - 2:05.696 - Well, it's a NSX and therefore damn fast.
It does have terrible gearing though, too long, too tall, I'm sorry Roj. Apart from that it's an easy and fast drive. I felt quite comfortable with it. Very stable and the brakes are good. It may not be the fastest NSX, but it's bulletproof and every 🤬 could drive fast with it.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 2

trackripper123 -Ruf RGT - 2:05-919 - Wonderful exit, it's great fun to drive this thing. Very nice gearing - 6th gear is topping out just before braking for turn 1, feature?
Feels very direct and follows the line you want to drive. Fantastic drive, feels very smooth and it's the most enjoyable car I tested.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 1

FastaSheck - BMW M3 GTR - 2:06.476 - A sweet car, although I think a CSL would have been faster. The car is pretty stable. It does have enough power to get sideways though if you force it, which is actually not a bad thing. Time is surprisingly good, even with a noticeable amount of understeer. I remember the CSL to be much less understeering. Anyway, the brakes are excellent, the car brakes much better than I expected.
All in all a round tune, fast and should work for everybody.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 6

Praiano - Muira - 2:06.542 - Ahh the brakes are slightly too rear biased. Relatively difficult drive, although the rest is nice. LSD accel great, traction good, but as soon as a tire skids -> dead Oldie but goldie if you drive it careful. It's also pretty hard on curbs, just saying.
Not the absolute best car for inexperienced drivers, but fast if you get the hang of it. 2-3 gear is a little wide for my taste. Always great to see such an old car keeping up with modern cars.
Brake kills a little the drivers choice rank, sorry.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 4

VTiRoj - BMW M5 - 2:06.897 - Damn heavy and a bit a spongy front. 2-3 gear could be better (I think I could say this for every car I tested ). What else... oh it doesn't sound too bad. Seriously, it's an easy drive and very stable, possibly the opposite of tail happy (front happy perhaps?). Great car for everybody, very easy to push and drive on the limit. However, why is it that fast?

Drivers Choice (rank) - 3 (Don't think I had thaaaat much fun driving it, it was more the fact that I could push it as hard as I wanted and it always followed good as gold.)

xande1959 - Audi RS6 - 2:07.840 - Understeers a little much, tune could have been way more aggressive. Rear doesn't move a millimeter sideways. I also could hardly find the brakes...
However, it's much faster than I thought, no idea how that was possible. I see some more potential in this car, but anyway, it's by far the easiest car to drive. May be great for beginners.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 7

xande1959 - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R - 2:08.119 - Understeer in neutral, on throttle. I definitely see similarities in tuning style between your two cars. I found the brake setting to be quite bad, you either overbrake rear or have no brake power at all. Feels heavier than a BMW M5 with over 1800kg, although this one only has about 1050kg. Rear is rock solid, no chance that it will ever oversteer EXCEPT if you brake...
It's also pretty hard on curbs. But if you fix the brake balance, it's by far the easiest and most forgiving RWD car in this shootout. So yeah, fix one thing and it should be a great car for anybody with any skill level.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 9

Ridox2JZGTE -Nissan STAGEA 25T - 2:08.392 - Awkward!
It pushes on throttle in a very ugly way, then it somehow starts to spin and the rear gets alive, but not really in a fun way...
Brake balance of 3/1 would have been better, I found 5/3 too high.
More initial turn in needed and way more rotation on exit. And please not this strange wobbly and recalcitrant behaviour. I pretty much disagree with the whole tune with exception of the transmission. The tranny is not too bad, although I honestly wouldn't mention it if the rest weren't that bad, sorry. I also can't use the full AWD traction advantage. I never found a good balance, it fights against you, the car hates you, it drives like a donkey on crack...
Ehh... well, maybe not thaaat bad, but still, you get the point.
Just don't ask me how it was faster than the Yellowbird, although I even drove the RUF faster than Jonny. DON'T ASK!!!

Oh and 2:07 is possible, does this make it better in any way? Nah!
Drivers Choice (rank) - 8

Praiano - Yellowbird - 2:09.158 - Yeah the Yellowbird, I love it. I must say I wasn't entirely happy with the tune, it understeers too much in my eyes. Yes understeer, that's correct.
Problem is, if you drive it on the limit it either under or oversteers, but never seems to really find a neutral balance. This is not necessarily a bad thing, most people nearly 🤬 in their pants anyway when driving this car and will be more than happy with the increased drivability. The tune doesn't have big flaws, it's a really sweet one actually. Times may not be that good since it's a Yellowbird, but I had fun driving it at least.

Drivers Choice (rank) - 5 (This is actually not fair, I love this car and I had loads of fun driving it. But I think it's mostly because of the car and not the tune, although it's a good tune.)

 

[FastAShecK]

Yeah Aftermarket Rims are on her. How much difference if any do aftermarket wheels make, and if so do the slightly different sizes among options make a difference as well?

That all sounds fair, I can extend the testing one more week

Thank you for building and trying out the M3 GTR I'm actually more surprised than you are I bet lol Nice Time with it too.

I had a CSL built to spec with her, and the times I got with it were a 1/4 sec slower than the GTR even with the HP deficit. The CSL vs the GTR at the same weight the CSL has 15hp less to hit the same PP with no wing. It was really really close between the 2 for me in the end.

 

[dr_slump]

I had a CSL built to spec with her, and the times I got with it were a 1/4 sec slower than the GTR even with the HP deficit. The CSL vs the GTR at the same weight the CSL has 15hp less to hit the same PP with no wing. It was really really close between the 2 for me in the end.

That's a little strange.

 

[FastAShecK]

That's a little strange.

Yeah its the same with the normal M3 vs CSL, the M3 at the same weight no wing 50/50 has to have about 15hp less to hit the same PP. The CSL in the same 525pp Spec would of only been at 425hp. The faster CSL gets its nads clenched a bit to hit the same PP, if I could of got them to the same hp I'm sure the CSL would of tore it up. Its one of my favorite cars in the series, and almost as fast with 15hp less.

 

[VTiRoj]

VTiRoj - NSX Type-R - 2:05.696 - Well, it's a NSX and therefore damn fast.
It does have terrible gearing though, too long, too tall, I'm sorry Roj. Apart from that it's an easy and fast drive. I felt quite comfortable with it. Very stable and the brakes are good. It may not be the fastest NSX, but it's bulletproof and every 🤬 could drive fast with it.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 2

I agree that I could've shorted the upper gears to squeeze some extra speed out of it, but I do like my longer lower gears since it keeps the wheelspin down at low speeds. I guess I was going for safety over speed since it was my first proper go with no ABS.

VTiRoj - BMW M5 - 2:06.897 - Damn heavy and a bit a spongy front. 2-3 gear could be better (I think I could say this for every car I tested ). What else... oh it doesn't sound too bad. Seriously, it's an easy drive and very stage, possibly the opposite of tail happy (front happy perhaps?). Great car for everybody, very easy to push and drive on the limit. However, why is it that fast?

Drivers Choice (rank) - 3 (Don't think I had thaaaat much fun driving it, it was more the fact that I could push it as hard as I wanted and it always followed good as gold.)

Front happy. Yeah I just wanted the M5 to be really easy to drive without ABS, same deal as the NSX. I was actually surprised how tame the M5 could be, despite having so much power and weight under it.

Oh and it's fast because it's a BMW... with a 540bhp V10. Makes up a ton of time down the straights.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

snip...

Ridox2JZGTE -Nissan STAGEA 25T - 2:08.392 - Awkward!
It pushes on throttle in a very ugly way, then it somehow starts to spin and the rear gets alive, but not really in a fun way...
Brake balance of 3/1 would have been better, I found 5/3 too high.
More initial turn in needed and way more rotation on exit. And please not this strange wobbly and recalcitrant behaviour. I pretty much disagree with the whole tune with exception of the transmission. The tranny is not too bad, although I honestly wouldn't mention it if the rest weren't that bad, sorry. I also can't use the full AWD traction advantage. I never found a good balance, it fights against you, the car hates you, it drives like a donkey on crack...
Ehh... well, maybe not thaaat bad, but still, you get the point.
Just don't ask me how it was faster than the Yellowbird, although I even drove the RUF faster than Jonny. DON'T ASK!!!

Oh and 2:07 is possible, does this make it better in any way? Nah!
Drivers Choice (rank) - 8

Oops, I feel very bad now

 

[dr_slump]

I agree that I could've shorted the upper gears to squeeze some extra speed out of it, but I do like my longer lower gears since it keeps the wheelspin down at low speeds. I guess I was going for safety over speed since it was my first proper go with no ABS.


Front happy. Yeah I just wanted the M5 to be really easy to drive without ABS, same deal as the NSX. I was actually surprised how tame the M5 could be, despite having so much power and weight under it.

Oh and it's fast because it's a BMW... with a 540bhp V10. Makes up a ton of time down the straights.

Oh I accidentally wrote "stage"... No idea how that happened, must be caused by the auto correction feature of my browser (I hate it). It should say "stable" instead.

Oops, I feel very bad now

Well, it's at least not the slowest car. Also, as I wrote above, a 2:07 time should be possible. I simply didn't feel comfortable enough to push it harder to faster times.
You feel a little better now?

 

[xande1959]

xande1959 - Audi RS6 - 2:07.840 - Understeers a little much, tune could have been way more aggressive. Rear doesn't move a millimeter sideways. I also could hardly find the brakes...
However, it's much faster than I thought, no idea how that was possible. I see some more potential in this car, but anyway, it's by far the easiest car to drive. May be great for beginners.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 7

xande1959 - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R - 2:08.119 - Understeer in neutral, on throttle. I definitely see similarities in tuning style between your two cars. I found the brake setting to be quite bad, you either overbrake rear or have no brake power at all. Feels heavier than a BMW M5 with over 1800kg, although this one only has about 1050kg. Rear is rock solid, no chance that it will ever oversteer EXCEPT if you brake...
It's also pretty hard on curbs. But if you fix the brake balance, it's by far the easiest and most forgiving RWD car in this shootout. So yeah, fix one thing and it should be a great car for anybody with any skill level.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 9

dr-slump actually brake was a wrong choice but tried everything but I could not in the rx-7 tried to put moves ballast it. but not had better idea I tried something once in a while use of the so-called motor brake brake sensitivity increases but it was my first time without abs. as for the AUDI RS6 ' 02 like this car but I feel that I can improve I'll try. thanks buddy for the performance. congratulations:tup:

 

[praiano63]

Praiano - Muira - 2:06.542 - Ahh the brakes are slightly too rear biased. Relatively difficult drive, although the rest is nice. LSD accel great, traction good, but as soon as a tire skids -> dead Oldie but goldie if you drive it careful. It's also pretty hard on curbs, just saying.
Not the absolute best car for inexperienced drivers, but fast if you get the hang of it. 2-3 gear is a little wide for my taste. Always great to see such an old car keeping up with modern cars.
Brake kills a little the drivers choice rank, sorry.
Drivers Choice (rank) - 4


Praiano - Yellowbird - 2:09.158 - Yeah the Yellowbird, I love it. I must say I wasn't entirely happy with the tune, it understeers too much in my eyes. Yes understeer, that's correct.
Problem is, if you drive it on the limit it either under or oversteers, but never seems to really find a neutral balance. This is not necessarily a bad thing, most people nearly 🤬 in their pants anyway when driving this car and will be more than happy with the increased drivability. The tune doesn't have big flaws, it's a really sweet one actually. Times may not be that good since it's a Yellowbird, but I had fun driving it at least.

Drivers Choice (rank) - 5 (This is actually not fair, I love this car and I had loads of fun driving it. But I think it's mostly because of the car and not the tune, although it's a good tune.)

Praiano - Muira - 2:06.542
Thanks Dr ,i'm happy with this for the Miura. The tune is not a special track tune, i've made the car with an existant setting just before leaving my home 2 weeks ago. The brake balance is bad, more time was needed. But , i think it's a still a very good all around base to start a good specific Miura tune.

Praiano - Yellowbird - 2:09.158
Again this tune is not track specific, i've made it for the nordschleife, only the gearbox was adapted.
The car balance is not for agressive driving. I wanted to let this for other kind of cars. My goal with the YB was to let it easy and fast, same weight and power as original, no ballast , and at the ideal racing speed.

Thanks for your test, good job.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°

 

[FastAShecK]

I've actually become rather fond of the STAGEA 260RS (body kit and RB26DET in the STAGEA with ATTESA) since testing out the STAGEA here, quite a decent ride and the body kit looks decent too.

 

[praiano63]

I've actually become rather fond of the STAGEA 260RS (body kit and RB26DET in the STAGEA with ATTESA) since testing out the STAGEA here, quite a decent ride and the body kit looks decent too.

Where are we at with this shootout ???

Has it fallen into a medieval shelve ????

 

[FastAShecK]

Yeah, mideval sleep to say the least. My fault for poor organization and poor management. It was my first attempt to host and I was not expecting there to be an issue with cars being shared or not. I know for next time but I will take careful time to plan it out before I try this again.

Thanks for participating, I apologize for letting it fall apart.

 

[praiano63]

Yeah, mideval sleep to say the least. My fault for poor organization and poor management. It was my first attempt to host and I was not expecting there to be an issue with cars being shared or not. I know for next time but I will take careful time to plan it out before I try this again.

Thanks for participating, I apologize for letting it fall apart.

Ok, no problems, but we need to link the first page in the FITT thread. There is a some very good tunes here for anybody enjoy...👍

 

[FastAShecK]

no prob, go for it