The No Driving Assist Tuner Challenge

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Two things. I see most of the braking at 50% or less strength in the video most of the time and the stock springs in the G27 are not very progressive. You need an aftermarket kit for that and I intend to get it at some point, but I find the stock pedals pretty good anyway, far superior to the stock DFGT, although they ended up pretty good when I modded them.

70-75 was the peak at the highest speed braking, sorry, you're right mostly are around 50%.

I found this thread made recently by a guy who made a cool and interesting brake spring mod for G27/G25 - he used heavier spring and an option to use extra sensor + valve.

Added valve :

His thread :
Adjustable brake spring G27

His site - taking reserve now : http://www.totalspanishsimulator.com

 

[praiano63]

I already did a preorder. Look very nice , well done.

 

[FastAShecK]

Wow that looks kool. Looks like it solves the travel problem and makes the pedal even more realistic. I bet that addition will call for a higher BB value on G27's using it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I bought the Nixom brake pedal mod for my G27 and love it. It provides three different levels of braking. It provides a much better feel for how hard you are onto the brakes. Well worth the $35 or so.

Everyone raves about it, I'm just lazy...lol.

Thanks for the link Rido. Looks pretty sharp but also looks like he's having trouble meeting his deadlines. Have to keep an eye on it, but I'd probably go with something proven first like the Nixim mod, then I might be able to stay in Hami's rearview...lol.

 

[FastAShecK]

Request could somebody please build my car and share it for me. M3 GTR

My PS3 is FINiSHED so aside from loosing everything on it (including all my 600 cars and all the tuning work I've done on them) I'm crossing my fingers a app I have can unlock my save game to use it on a spare PS3. My bro has my other PS3 and its going to take a 3 hour drive just to get to him to get my PS3 and 3 hours back, I hope to find the time this week to do the run, but I would really appreciate it if somebody could build and share my car for me until I get my PS3 back and hopefully my save game restored.

I'm sure you all can understand the frustration that comes with a finished (BSOD no txt) PS3 and loosing everything.

 

[fbccars924]

When is the next season of this happening? I have a car I think may fare well on this.

 

[FastAShecK]

When is the next season of this happening? I have a car I think may fare well on this.

Plan for the next round will be made when this one is finished. Need to analyze everything to implement improvements. I would love to have you as a Tuner in the next round.

 

[fbccars924]

I have a car already set up. I will be at a disadvantage as my car is under 500pp iirc. but I think it'll fare well.

 

[FastAShecK]

I have a car already set up. I will be at a disadvantage as my car is under 500pp iirc. but I think it'll fare well.

You got from now to start working on it, keep in mind most likely the PP for this even is going to be raised (I'm thinking 575PP on the same SS tires) but nothing is official.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip...It also tells me that when I see low settings like 2/0, if a G27 is used for tuning the low setting is to accommodate the brake pedal, and not the tuner simply using low settings to make her easier to drive in a cheesy way sans ABS.

Obviously our approaches to noABS tuning and driving are different. My only goal with any tuning is to make the car easy to drive fast in repeatable, consistent laps, and if that means 1/0 or 2/0 or 3/1 that's what I'm going to use, because it's faster for me and that held true with the DFGT and the G27 and even the DS3 the few times I tried it, for me. If cheesy = faster then I'm all for cheesy...lol. It's not a skills challenge for me, to see who can run with the highest BB, but the challenge of tuning a car that even someone new to noABS driving can can run consistently with, close or equal to their own ABSon pace.

 

[FastAShecK]

Obviously our approaches to noABS tuning and driving are different. My only goal with any tuning is to make the car easy to drive fast in repeatable, consistent laps, and if that means 1/0 or 2/0 or 3/1 that's what I'm going to use, because it's faster for me and that held true with the DFGT and the G27 and even the DS3 the few times I tried it, for me. If cheesy = faster then I'm all for cheesy...lol. It's not a skills challenge for me, to see who can run with the highest BB, but the challenge of tuning a car that even someone new to noABS driving can can run consistently with, close or equal to their own ABSon pace.

I think you misunderstood. Wow seriously. I will have to spell it out so its really clear. Please excuse the caps but I need to be clear.

All I said was This info basically tells me low BB settings IS NOT CHEESE if it is used to accommodate the pedals AND NOT AS A CHEESY WAY TO TUNE. It's like your flipping it completely and getting crazy defensive over nothing... You said DFGT pedals suck compared to G27's GREAT whoop te do. All I say is I like the TRAVEL better on the DFGT, and this allows higher (less cheesy low) settings to accommodate low travel. If you like it or not dropping to 2/0 BB is cheeeeeese UNLESS there is a logical reason for the overly low settings. WHY are you seemingly upset when I find a logical reason? It's such a common thing among G27 drivers that they complain about lock up on tunes with higher BB settings always the Tuners confused because they don't experience the same thing, it's like you take criticism of the G27 personal or something... If you spend some time ABS off with the DFGT maybe you will see how 0/0 is basically a neat way to get ABS 1 ish braking from a ABS 0 setting. THAT is the point. Dropping to near 0 BB levels DEFEATS the purpose of a competition like this.....

 

[trackripper123]

Erm, what? Johnnypenso wasn't having a go at all there, merely stating his opinion.

Anyhow, I'm sure the tuners would appreciate some feedback too, alongside all the chit-chat in this thread.

 

[praiano63]

I think this would be the best solution.
Depending of testers hardware and driving style.

BRAKE BALANCE : OPEN/OPEN

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

^ +1 BB open to driver, not tune dependent.

 

[dr_slump]

--- snip ---

I do have a DFGT AND I also do prefer a BB of 1/0, 2/0, 3/1 in by far the most cases.
Many cars will have lock ups even with 1/0.
However, I always set it so that I can use the full potential of the brakes, but also have a maximum amount of control. Basically, my aim is that they CAN lock, but preferably as late as possible. Late in relation to rest travel of the brake pedal.

Having brakes which lock at about 50%, according to ridox, is just a big waste and, in combination with my driving style, nonsense for me. I hate to drive digital, meaning always to walk full on throttle and, in this case essential, brake. I want to have the possibility to modulate the brakes. Not like an on/off switch.
There's a reason why brakes are analog, and it's not because it weren't possible in real.

But maybe the way I drive is a sloppy way and the reason why I'm that slow.

THAT is the point. Dropping to near 0 BB levels DEFEATS the purpose of a competition like this.....

In this case you better make a: "Who's badass enough for 10/10 BB no ABS challenge".

 

[dr_slump]

--- snip ---

I do have a DFGT AND I also do prefer a BB of 1/0, 2/0, 3/1 in by far the most cases.
Many cars will have lock ups even with 1/0.
However, I always set it so that I can use the full potential of the brakes, but also have a maximum amount of control. Basically, my aim is that they CAN lock, but preferably as late as possible. Late in relation to rest travel of the brake pedal.

Having brakes which lock at about 50%, according to ridox, is just a big waste and, in combination with my driving style, nonsense for me. I hate to drive digital, meaning always to walk full on throttle and, in this case essential, brake. I want to have the possibility to modulate the brakes. Not like an on/off switch.
There's a reason why brakes are analog, and it's not because it weren't possible in real.

But maybe the way I drive is a sloppy way and the reason why I'm that slow.

THAT is the point. Dropping to near 0 BB levels DEFEATS the purpose of a competition like this.....

In this case you better make a: "Who's badass enough for 10/10 BB no ABS challenge".


EDIT:

Oh and just saying:
I have no problem in driving, let's say, ridox's Stagea with 5/3 BB, but I'm struggling with Xande's RX-7 with 1/1 BB, because of the messy balance.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip..... If you spend some time ABS off with the DFGT maybe you will see how 0/0 is basically a neat way to get ABS 1 ish braking from a ABS 0 setting. THAT is the point. Dropping to near 0 BB levels DEFEATS the purpose of a competition like this.....

As I've mentioned a couple of times already, I have both wheels and use the same brake balance on both wheels. I learned no ABS driving on the DFGT and just moved to the G27 around Christmas. It was a seemless move with no retuning required and the same brake balances, 2/0, 3/1 etc. I can lock up at 2/0 but it takes more pedal travel to do it. I'd rather use 95% of the pedal than 50% of the pedal for braking as it's more accurate. If you lock up at 50% the rest of the pedal range is useless and that's a wasted opportunity to me.

As Slump says, I don't want the brakes or throttle to be like an on/off switch and that's how it feels to me with higher BB's. There are no heroics to using higher BB's, but if it works for you that's great, it just doesn't work for me. Not that I can't drive the a car with higher BB, but for me so much of being fast and consistent is being confident in what the car will do and I just don't have that same confidence with higher brake balances.

And again, based on the tunes I've driven so far, which is all of them, it seems most of the tuners prefer lower BB's as well. Doesn't mean you're wrong, you have to do what works for you, but when you tune for a crowd, you have to figure out what's going to work for most drivers as opposed to your personal preferences if you want broad appeal to your tune.

And the one car with a lower BB that I mentioned in an earlier post as having trouble with, is the same one Slump had trouble with, Xande's RX-7. Nice car, handles really well, great tune, but the brake balance is off, the rear locks up before the front and makes it difficult to get the full braking potential from the car.

 

[fbccars924]

You got from now to start working on it, keep in mind most likely the PP for this even is going to be raised (I'm thinking 575PP on the same SS tires) but nothing is official.

It's done already. It's plenty fast if I add any more horsepower it'll throw the balance off.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip..... If you spend some time ABS off with the DFGT maybe you will see how 0/0 is basically a neat way to get ABS 1 ish braking from a ABS 0 setting. THAT is the point. Dropping to near 0 BB levels DEFEATS the purpose of a competition like this.....

As I've mentioned a couple of times already, I have both wheels and use the same brake balance on both wheels. I learned no ABS driving on the DFGT and just moved to the G27 around Christmas. It was a seemless move with no retuning required and the same brake balances, 2/0, 3/1 etc. I can lock up at 2/0 but it takes more pedal travel to do it. I'd rather use 95% of the pedal than 50% of the pedal for braking as it's more accurate. If you lock up at 50% the rest of the pedal range is useless and that's a wasted opportunity to me.

As Slump says, I don't want the brakes or throttle to be like an on/off switch and that's how it feels to me with higher BB's. There are no heroics to using higher BB's, but if it works for you that's great, it just doesn't work for me. Not that I can't drive the a car with higher BB, but for me so much of being fast and consistent is being confident in what the car will do and I just don't have that same confidence with higher brake balances.

And again, based on the tunes I've driven so far, which is all of them, it seems most of the tuners prefer lower BB's as well. Doesn't mean you're wrong, you have to do what works for you, but when you tune for a crowd, you have to figure out what's going to work for most drivers as opposed to your personal preferences if you want broad appeal to your tune.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

And again, based on the tunes I've driven so far, which is all of them, it seems most of the tuners prefer lower BB's as well.

Every no ABS tuner will be influenced by their input device when setting BB - most are low as they use stock wheel/pedal. Imagine if one tuner has a modded pedal which allows higher BB, it will have high BB than usual, but it might not work for certain testers with stock pedal or DS3.

Doesn't mean you're wrong, you have to do what works for you, but when you tune for a crowd, you have to figure out what's going to work for most drivers as opposed to your personal preferences if you want broad appeal to your tune.

I think this only applies for ABS tune ( BB does not really affect braking unlike no ABS ), with no ABS tune, BB should be separated from the tune, and be driver dependent, as different input device favor different BB, then the driver skill + style + experience also plays into the equation Even some driver who like to trail brake into corner will prefer a bit more BB at the rear than usual - even more so with FF cars ( to reduce understeer )

Putting the tuner's BB as reference would be good, but anyone else who drive the car should find a BB that's best suited their input device and style.

 

[FastAShecK]

Wow 10/10 intense. 5/5 is already too much lol... I dunno but based off what I see it appears as though most G27 users from what I see use very very low BB even with the ABS still on (that says something . ), I also look at Birds of a Feather flocking together as just a little Trucker Hat syndrome, not much tangible in that. Where I have the most issue is G27 drivers all experiencing something the Tuner does not when testing tunes with higher BB. When something like this occurs enough I begins to ask "why". In this case my opinion is that there is a variation in Travel distance between pedal sets calling for different BB settings.

I think there is nothing Heroic about high BB (yeah, superstar BB drivers lol, you guys are a lil too much, not everybody is out to act like they are the best just because they question the accepted norms) I have no respect for ABS times this is just my opinion, but even still I see nothing "Heroic" about ABS-0 driving, I just see it as "assist free" as as apposed to the accepted norm "assist free ABS-1", ABS in GT5 is very much an "assist".... ALL times posted with ABS are mearly times posted with drivers using driver assist, plain and simple...

When I jump in a car with 2/0 the brake pedal becomes basically as free as with ABS-1 so what's the point of even taking it off? I don't think this makes me special, in fact most people on this board will probably nail faster times with my car because I'm a weekend warrior driver, don't spend enough time actually playing the game to get good enough to be at that kind of level. Then I hear people say 0-ABS with a DFGT is impossible, makes my eyebrow raise, No, it's not impossible. I have to question why it is they think this. Only thing I've done different is clean my 5 year old pedals and that was a HUGE improvement. Maybe it's something people having issues with the DFGT need to consider doing.

Comparing a G27 & DFGT, I analyze the situation & come up with a 30% variation in travel distance in the brake pedal, take a step back to try and be objective when looking at that FACT (I knows that's hard), suddenly the BB situation makes perfect sense... The G27 already having mods to solve this and also further improve the feel of the pedal, so without question the G27 is the superior option. So what....

Imagine this, if we could copy the driver input from a full lap of a driver using a G27 and apply them to a 2nd lap again using a G27. It being a game & all variables the same the 2 laps should be 100% identical. Well if we do the same thing, BUT we change the brake pedal to the pedal off a DFGT keeping the motion of the foot exactly the same. Not only will the 2 laps be different, the one with the DFGT will roughly have 30% less brake pressure used across the lap, the Test would end at the very first corner where the DFGT brake pedal is not applied enough causing the car to fly right off the track as if the driver forgot to slow down for the turn. The rest of the lap Fubarred at this point.

The Different travel distance to do the same Job will require a 30% variation in motion used, that is a FACT, not my opinion... With 30% less travel, you are roughly 30% more likely to use a little too much brake and lock up (hmmmmmmm), where having that extra 30% travel the driver does not need to be as precise to do the same job. A reduction in BB is a great way to compensate for this... If the G27 had another inch less travel, could you imagine how precise one would have to be to do the same job, or how easy it would be to give too much and lock up..... On the flip side, think about if you had 3 inches MORE travel, think about exactly HOW that would affect things, sometimes pushing to an extreme to make the variation much larger it becomes clear even though at reduced percentages it's obviously not going to be as much. It is literally impossible for you to carry your driving style from a DFGT to a G27 without adjustment to how your foot moves to do the same job... Those are the facts, so excuse me if I don't buy some of the stuff said when the facts don't support it.

I apologize, it's just feels as though me saying something negative about the G27 has struck people personally, like I'm belittling them or something. The wheel is just an accessory, as great as the G27 may be, it's not perfect, and it's not a family member being insulted.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My testing results:

Overall I have to say well done:tup:👍 I expected BB's all over the place but most of them settled down into the territory I find comfortable and easy to run with. A wide variety of cars to drive was also nice.

trackripper123 -Ruf RGT - 2:05-845 - No surprises here. Great handling, brakes, grip. Well done.
DC - 10

VTiRoj - NSX Type-R - 2:06.010 - Very good, lots of lateral grip, balanced. Slight understeer exiting, a little too tight for my tastes, LSD Accel a touch high. A great car for someone learning noABS, relatively easy to drive fast.
DC - 9

Praiano - Muira - 2:06.311 - Great handling, grip, brakes, only downside was the brakes were slightly too biased to the rear.
DC - 9

VTiRoj - BMW M5 - 2:07.481 - Great handling, brakes, grip. Easy to drive to the limit.
DC - 10

xande1959 - Audi RS6 - 2:08.498 - Pleasant drive, a liittle sluggish, very stable and predictable, good first car for NoABS drivers to learn on.
DC - 7

xande1959 - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R - 2:08.552 - Good handling car, stable and predictable, easy to drive for a first time ABS'er, except for the unbalanced braking. Too much rear brake, kept locking up the rear even with moderate brake pressure.
DC - 6

Praiano - Yellowbird - 2:09.358 - What can I say, it's a Yellowbird!!! Elusive grip, 99% of the weight behind you, hard to drive, but lots of fun when you start to nail it.
DC - 7

Ridox2JZGTE -Nissan STAGEA 25T - 2:10.562 - Rido's tunes and I just don't agree...lol. I found the car sluggish and slow to respond, tranny unsuited to the track, brake balances far higher than necessary. Difficult to drive repeatable, consistent laps.
DC - 4

The crowd is on it's feet, he's a cinderalla boy...​

​

 

[praiano63]

My testing results:

Oveall I have to say well done:tup:👍 I expected BB's all over the place but most of them settled down into the territory I find comfortable and easy to run with. A wide variety of cars to drive was also nice.

Praiano - Muira - 2:06.311 - Great handling, grip, brakes, only downside was the brakes were slightly too biased to the rear.
DC - 9

Praiano - Yellowbird - 2:09.358 - What can I say, it's a Yellowbird!!! Elusive grip, 99% of the weight behind you, hard to drive, but lots of fun when you start to nail it.
DC - 7

The crowd is on it's feet, he's a cinderalla boy...​

Nice job Johnny. A 3/1 for the miura would fit better you're right, but no time to set the car before my travel 2 weeks ago.
I'm sure that we must let the BB OPEN depending of tester hardware.

The YB is a very fun car...... i love it around the ring with ABS. I'll try to put a foam ball under the break pedal like some people use.... waiting for a special spring or pedal.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

My testing results:

Oveall I have to say well done:tup:👍 I expected BB's all over the place but most of them settled down into the territory I find comfortable and easy to run with. A wide variety of cars to drive was also nice.

snip..

Ridox2JZGTE -Nissan STAGEA 25T - 2:10.562 - Rido's tunes and I just don't agree...lol. I found the car sluggish and slow to respond, tranny unsuited to the track, brake balances far higher than necessary. Difficult to drive repeatable, consistent laps.
DC - 4

My car is a turtle , I figured this would happen as it was the exact same tune from Wagon Shootout for Deep Forest Reverse, It uses 5 speed close ratio gearbox, a tune that was made for ABS 1, but I entered it anyway just for fun:tup:Great time though, would have been better drive with lower BB.

 

[trackripper123]

My testing results:

Oveall I have to say well done:tup:👍 I expected BB's all over the place but most of them settled down into the territory I find comfortable and easy to run with. A wide variety of cars to drive was also nice.

trackripper123 -Ruf RGT - 2:05-845 - No surprises here. Great handling, brakes, grip. Well done.
DC - 10

Yay feedback!
Thanks for driving it, that RGT tune is my best tune to date I think, certainly I was very pleased with it when I finished it. Glad others found it as good as I did.

 

[VTiRoj]

My testing results:

VTiRoj - NSX Type-R - 2:06.010 - Very good, lots of lateral grip, balanced. Slight understeer exiting, a little too tight for my tastes, LSD Accel a touch high. A great car for someone learning noABS, relatively easy to drive fast.
DC - 9

VTiRoj - BMW M5 - 2:07.481 - Great handling, brakes, grip. Easy to drive to the limit.
DC - 10

Very happy with those results and in the M5's case, very surprised too. 👍

 

[xande1959]

xande1959 - Audi RS6 - 2:08.498 - Pleasant drive, a liittle sluggish, very stable and predictable, good first car for NoABS drivers to learn on.
DC - 7

xande1959 - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R - 2:08.552 - Good handling car, stable and predictable, easy to drive for a first time ABS'er, except for the unbalanced braking. Too much rear brake, kept locking up the rear even with moderate brake pressure.
DC - 6


fantastic time you put in this small mammoth AUDI RS 6 the mazda rx-7 gave me work but it was the first time without abs too learn even congratulations:tup:

 

[dr_slump]

Xande can I ask you why you decided to put 200kg ballast at +5 instead of +50 in your RS6?
It would've increased PP by only 1 point (fixed with 0.1% more powerlimiter, ridicilous).

 

[xande1959]

Xande can I ask you why you decided to put 200kg ballast at +5 instead of +50 in your RS6?
It would've increased PP by only 1 point (fixed with 0.1% more powerlimiter, ridicilous).

I'll be honest with you this car was scheduled for (DEEP FOREST CIRCUIT FITT) used 200 kg to decrease PP in ballast position + 5 perhaps alerting me now you could have put +50 would make little difference anyway thanks:tup:

 

[GTPMcBride]

Why argue about brake balance when its what suits you an how you like to brake on entrance an mid corner, remember that abs is a steering assist not a braking assist, their are so many different styles of braking that require different differentials an brake balance, i use a DFGT an the pedals arent great but thats what you pay for.. my brake balance is usually 3/2 i brake sometimes early for the corner but only very little an maintain brake during mid corner if needed be an then apply throttle known as trial braking.. or you can cadence braking when you apply braking an throttle together but this is only for in cases of losing control.. you can use a higher BB but what that needs is a higher decel for straight line an car setup to support that, with higher BB you need to brake late turn car mid corner an fire it out.. very much like abs1... The best tuners know driving styles an what we like in terms of steering lock etc.. a car tuned by yourself to suit your style will only benefit you i guess..