The Pinnacle of the ICE sports car

[Corsa]

So much incredible engineering to consider, but it's short and sweet for me.
Removing the car from thoughts and thinking strictly of the power plant the Toyota 1LR-GUE.

It's been called an engineering masterpiece.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

It would definitely not be helpful for initiating rotation since the extra weight at the back increases moment of inertia about the center and increases traction at the back. What it would do is make it harder to pull the back in once it gets out, and I can see how that could be used, in certain circumstances, and might even be fun for maintaining a slide. But mid-engine is obviously superior overall or race cars wouldn't be built that way.

You're right, but HFS is also correct that having that inertia does make it easier to initiate rotation. Once you get that inertia moving, it keeps going. On a car with most of the mass at the front, it tends to take a lot of effort and often some violent inputs to get the back end to slide. On a Porsche 911, it doesn't take much because all of those inputs are amplified by the inertia you speak of.

2+2 is one of those things that sounds great in theory and never actually gets used. I wonder how many times I've ever seen someone use the back seat in a Porsche for people.

@axletramp might be able to shed some light on this subject; I recall that he has 2 passengers quite often in his 997.

But even if they aren't used, my point stands. The 2+2 layout is a selling point and adds to the practicality of the car. More luggage space, certainly, but also easier to justify the purchase of the car in the first place, thus contributing to the design's longevity.

 

[Cano]

Altough I really don't have anything really relevant to add (Ford flathead lol) since basically all the top car-engine combos have been thrown out already, I'll still say this is a great thread and has provided a good read from all involved 👍

I think I'm with the 911 people on this one.

 

[Griffith500]

I wouldn't dismiss a Lotus 7 so readily - sure, most engines offered in them are relatively "pedestrian", but that's really the magic of this car: it doesn't matter. Even the turbo 3-pot Caterham used is a hoot, simply due to the purity of the experience that the chassis / platform offers, as ludicrous and impractical as it is.

The way the car allows such immediate appreciation of the engine, and vice-versa, is surely a part of what makes the ICE-powered car great, and is arguably an area that electric powertrains will fall short - once the shock of warp-factor acceleration has worn off, at least... The big question: would an electric 7 be as fun?

It's not just sound that matters, but also feel - I still can't get used to cars being so smooth at idle, I occasionally wonder if it's even still running (at least with stop-start you can still tell when it happens).


I'm really excited to see where Freevalve goes - quiet, clean, frugal and race-ready all in one package? You can add electric turbo-compounding and electric supercharging (with the required storage / transfer stuff) and you'll have something as responsive as NA with the instant monster torque of a constant-volume blower and the efficiency of a turbo.

As far as "Peak ICE" goes, I would love to suggest some motorcycle engines, but that's a very different matter given the greater physical involvement in piloting them, although the connection and mutual complement between chassis and powertrain still matters there as well.

 

[Michelin Man]

Well it's a question with many variables, and in many ways there's no concrete right or wrong answer. But for me my vote would have to go the S2000 and the F20C too. Perhaps I'm a tad biased for my adoration for the S2000, but I simply can't ignore the fact that the F20C was, and still is spectacular 4-cylinder unit, one of if not the best small capacity 4-cylinder engines in recent times/this century perhaps?

Make of it what you will, but the F20C's mighty impressive high specific output for an N/A engine at 125bhp per Litre, something not bettered 'till the 458 if I'm right in saying, but an achievement still mightily impressive for a 2.0L unit that still stands as the highest for such a displacement unless mistaken. Plus the noise and character of a high-revving N/A engine is hard to beat IMO.

I think on top of that, it's put together in a great package making the S2000 what it is as a whole, after all it's still a highly usable (though earlier AP1's "snappy" handling does question that perhaps ) and versatile car. Though one could argue, as many have done and rightly so, that the MX-5 does the same on a more accessible level.

And perhaps a nothing to note is perhaps you could say the K-Series is a better engine since it's not as highly strung, plus it responds to tuning better than the F-Series, partly due to the i-VTEC.

But hey, my vote for still stands for the S2000 if I'm honest, just simply a fantastic sports car IMO.

This one will sound odd, but just about any Volvo with the old redblock 4-cylinder engine.

That's actually quite a good shout really. Sure, the old redblock is not the most efficient or dynamic of unit's, but it's as tough as old boots, it can take a hell of lot of punishment, plus it's tuning potential is pretty impressive too, as a fair bit can be extracted from it, and the amount of power it can take is equally impressive.

But it's a very valid nomination, as from a pure durability, reliability and toughness point of view, the Volvo redblock is a hard choice to ignore. And I suppose that's the beauty of this question, is that depending on what your considerations are for a great ICE, there's multiples answers. Which is why it's been interesting reading this thread so far, as I do agree with a lot of the nominations.

 

[infamousphil]

I'm sorry... what was the question? Have we seen the best of fossil fueled engines and or cars that will EVER BE BUILT? Probably not because as long as we are willing to be shocked and awwed into Co2 induced comas, there'll always be a corporate interest in refining crude oil and someone with the next best tech to burn it.

 

[Corsa]

I wouldn't dismiss a Lotus 7 so readily - sure, most engines offered in them are relatively "pedestrian", but that's really the magic of this car: it doesn't matter. Even the turbo 3-pot Caterham used is a hoot, simply due to the purity of the experience that the chassis / platform offers, as ludicrous and impractical as it is.

The way the car allows such immediate appreciation of the engine, and vice-versa, is surely a part of what makes the ICE-powered car great, and is arguably an area that electric powertrains will fall short - once the shock of warp-factor acceleration has worn off, at least... The big question: would an electric 7 be as fun?

It's not just sound that matters, but also feel - I still can't get used to cars being so smooth at idle, I occasionally wonder if it's even still running (at least with stop-start you can still tell when it happens).


I'm really excited to see where Freevalve goes - quiet, clean, frugal and race-ready all in one package? You can add electric turbo-compounding and electric supercharging (with the required storage / transfer stuff) and you'll have something as responsive as NA with the instant monster torque of a constant-volume blower and the efficiency of a turbo.

As far as "Peak ICE" goes, I would love to suggest some motorcycle engines, but that's a very different matter given the greater physical involvement in piloting them, although the connection and mutual complement between chassis and powertrain still matters there as well.

Well, agreed to a point. If we're talking about a chassis/frame that allows us to appreciate the ICE onboard then the winner would be on two wheels, a Kart or F1 machine.
I'm confused are we talking about a stand-alone engine, or the best chassis engine combo ever made?

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

I'll make some honourable mentions
Toyota GT-One Road Car (TS020)

Lister Storm.

Ranault Espace F1.

You guessed right!
I was playing Gran Turismo 2 lately LOL

Edit :
Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR.

TVR Speed 12.

 

[Epic B]

I wouldn't dismiss a Lotus 7 so readily - sure, most engines offered in them are relatively "pedestrian", but that's really the magic of this car: it doesn't matter. Even the turbo 3-pot Caterham used is a hoot, simply due to the purity of the experience that the chassis / platform offers, as ludicrous and impractical as it is.

The way the car allows such immediate appreciation of the engine, and vice-versa, is surely a part of what makes the ICE-powered car great, and is arguably an area that electric powertrains will fall short - once the shock of warp-factor acceleration has worn off, at least... The big question: would an electric 7 be as fun?

It's not just sound that matters, but also feel - I still can't get used to cars being so smooth at idle, I occasionally wonder if it's even still running (at least with stop-start you can still tell when it happens).


I'm really excited to see where Freevalve goes - quiet, clean, frugal and race-ready all in one package? You can add electric turbo-compounding and electric supercharging (with the required storage / transfer stuff) and you'll have something as responsive as NA with the instant monster torque of a constant-volume blower and the efficiency of a turbo.

As far as "Peak ICE" goes, I would love to suggest some motorcycle engines, but that's a very different matter given the greater physical involvement in piloting them, although the connection and mutual complement between chassis and powertrain still matters there as well.

Yeah, I think free valve engines have a lot of potential. Koenigsegg's prototype free valve engine is already substantially smaller, lighter, more powerful and more efficient than an engine with cams. And that's even before we get into stuff such as direct injection, electric superchargers or the Atkinson and Miller cycles. Or homogeneous charge compression ignition, which Mazda is working on bringing to market. Free valve engines have tons of potential and I can't wait to see one get to market.

As for whether an electric 7 would be as good as a gas drinking 7, I imagine it would have a weight penalty and not be much quicker than a gas 7. The fastest 7s can already hit 60 in around 3 seconds I think. Some electrics are pretty impressive but I can't fault the 7 given what it can do with normal engines.

Also, I'm gonna give a vote to this thing:

Like the 7, the BAC Mono does a lot with a small engine and is even more impractical.

 

[05XR8]

Well, agreed to a point. If we're talking about a chassis/frame that allows us to appreciate the ICE onboard then the winner would be on two wheels, a Kart or F1 machine.
I'm confused are we talking about a stand-alone engine, or the best chassis engine combo ever made?

The pinnacle of the internal combustion sports car.

When I type "sports car" in my browser, the first pic in Google, is this:

When I search "pinnacle internal combustion sports car", I get this:

 

[Griffith500]

Of course, now we're supposed to argue over 6 pages about what actually constitutes "sports" in sports car, and whether the MX-5 truly qualifies etc. etc.

It is very pretty, still. Despite that gaping whale-shark maw. For me, for sure, styling matters a lot. But not necessarily for an out-and-out tool.


Anyway, a thought: without anywhere to drive these things, what exactly is the point? The MX-5 might not have historically been much of a "driver's car", but it always allowed immediate enjoyment of the open road. Your average GT car can do the same, but perhaps overly cosseted and smoothing out much of the imperfections on the way - does that count as well?

 

[mustafur]

It gets me everytime:

 

[Volksauto]

One of the greatest examples of a sports car would be the AC cobra or Shelby cobra.
Carroll Shelby asked AC if the could modify their Ace model for a v8 ICE, they agreed and Carroll used the ford 260ci, 289ci, and 427ci engines to create the AC Ace Cobra.
Lightweight frame and body, powerful engine, tailhappy, and beautiful to look at.

 

[Danoff]

@homeforsummer

Chris Harris likes the F40 better, though turbo is kindof a deal breaker for me.

 

[homeforsummer]

It would definitely not be helpful for initiating rotation since the extra weight at the back increases moment of inertia about the center and increases traction at the back. What it would do is make it harder to pull the back in once it gets out, and I can see how that could be used, in certain circumstances, and might even be fun for maintaining a slide. But mid-engine is obviously superior overall or race cars wouldn't be built that way.

Sorry, missed this until now.

As @Beeblebrox237 says, there's a pendulum effect to a car like the 911. Trail-brake or lift-off mid corner and that extra weight hanging out there certainly makes itself felt - and it's something you can use to your advantage on a circuit (not so much the road) to help the car rotate.

The initial movement won't necessarily be as quick as with something mid-engined, where most of the mass is concentrated between the axles rather than forward or aft of them (not that modern 911s struggle for turn-in response anyway, certainly now the quickest ones have four-wheel steering, but it's all relative), but once that mass is actually moving the effect is more pronounced.

I wouldn't dismiss a Lotus 7 so readily - sure, most engines offered in them are relatively "pedestrian", but that's really the magic of this car: it doesn't matter. Even the turbo 3-pot Caterham used is a hoot, simply due to the purity of the experience that the chassis / platform offers, as ludicrous and impractical as it is.

I've driven three or four Sevens and engine-wise the 3-cylinder is definitely the weakest - it just doesn't have the responses that make the four-cylinder ones great.

The Seven is a brilliant car, but all other things being equal (i.e. no increase in weight, no penalty in response) you'd want a more exotic engine, surely?

The big question: would an electric 7 be as fun?

It's not just sound that matters, but also feel - I still can't get used to cars being so smooth at idle, I occasionally wonder if it's even still running (at least with stop-start you can still tell when it happens).

That's an interesting one, but I'd say "possibly".

Caterhams are ultimately all about response - ultra-quick steering, sharp brakes, snappy throttle response. None of those things would change as an electric car. You'd lose some sound obviously, but then much of what you hear at speed in a Seven is wind noise anyway (regardless of whether the roof or doors are on or off!). And you'd lose some vibration, but Sevens are possibly a little too vibratory for my tastes - on poorly-surfaced roads, enough to cloud some of the steering feel they otherwise offer.

But you'd have really, really sharp response to the accelerator pedal and even assuming some kind of battery-related weight penalty, probably a pretty mighty power/torque:weight ratio. I'd love to try one, at the very least.

@homeforsummer

Chris Harris likes the F40 better, though turbo is kindof a deal breaker for me.

Yeah, same. To be fair, he's fairly positive about the F50 too. On the basis of never having driven either though, I'm going with the car that won our group test years ago when we put the 288/F40/F50/Enzo together!

I'll admit the F50's styling isn't quite up there with the F40 though.

 

[Populuxe]

I'll admit the F50's styling isn't quite up there with the F40 though.

Definitely agree with this. The looks of the F50 haven't aged well at all.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

@homeforsummer

Chris Harris likes the F40 better, though turbo is kindof a deal breaker for me.

Yeah, same. To be fair, he's fairly positive about the F50 too. On the basis of never having driven either though, I'm going with the car that won our group test years ago when we put the 288/F40/F50/Enzo together!

I'll admit the F50's styling isn't quite up there with the F40 though.

One of my favourite car videos, that. The F40 is, to borrow Harris's words, the supercar to end all supercars. But as a sports car that represents the pinnacle of ICE sports cars, I personally feel that the F50 is the better fit. Again, to quote Chris, "It has the most desirable powertrain of any supercar, really, it does. It's not the fastest, but the way it revs, the noise it makes, the gearshift are the best of the best." That, to me, indicates that this car is the pinnacle of ICE sports cars. It's not the F40, but if it's even possible I think the F50 is even more dominated by its engine. The noise is one of the best I've ever heard from any car. The specs read like a truly great racing car: 520 bhp at 8000 rpm, 1230 kg dry weight, double wishbones and pushrods at all four corners, carbon tub, MR layout, and a six speed manual gearbox onto which the rear suspension is mounted.

 

[Danoff]

Yeah, same. To be fair, he's fairly positive about the F50 too. On the basis of never having driven either though, I'm going with the car that won our group test years ago when we put the 288/F40/F50/Enzo together!

I'll admit the F50's styling isn't quite up there with the F40 though.

One of my favourite car videos, that. The F40 is, to borrow Harris's words, the supercar to end all supercars. But as a sports car that represents the pinnacle of ICE sports cars, I personally feel that the F50 is the better fit. Again, to quote Chris, "It has the most desirable powertrain of any supercar, really, it does. It's not the fastest, but the way it revs, the noise it makes, the gearshift are the best of the best." That, to me, indicates that this car is the pinnacle of ICE sports cars. It's not the F40, but if it's even possible I think the F50 is even more dominated by its engine. The noise is one of the best I've ever heard from any car. The specs read like a truly great racing car: 520 bhp at 8000 rpm, 1230 kg dry weight, double wishbones and pushrods at all four corners, carbon tub, MR layout, and a six speed manual gearbox onto which the rear suspension is mounted.

I'm having trouble coming up with anything that could dethrone the F50 in terms of pure track driving experience.

Despite my criticism of the 911 as a whole, the modern ones seem to be genuinely amazing (despite an improperly placed engine) and they have the added benefit of the PDK transmission, which I would take over a traditional manual. They're a bit heavier though than the F50, and not as "notable", since there are so many variants and they get a bit lost. Honestly, @homeforsummer seems to have hit it out of the park with those two being listed at the top.

I'm tempted to try other considerations like cost, but that's such a slippery slope, and comfort (like a Rolls for example), but Rolls is almost about making you forget you're in a car - which seems to undermine the point.

 

[mustafur]

@homeforsummer

Chris Harris likes the F40 better, though turbo is kindof a deal breaker for me.

The reason the F50 gets alot of slack is the power and speed was down on the F40(F50 had higher claimed power but less at the wheels then a F40 in reality),so alot of people felt it went backwards.

The F40 would be a very special car if not for the fact Turbos are overly used these days and we really don't rate them any more as anything special.

 

[Tornado]

Ferrari's handling of the car when it was new caused a lot of bad blood as well.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The F40 would be a very special car if not for the fact Turbos are overly used these days and we really don't rate them any more as anything special.

Clearly you've not watched the video or you would have heard these lines: "Because it's so mechanical the way it boosts if you hold the throttle steady it still adds boost, which is moderately terrifying." and "It isn't normally aspirated but yet its turbocharging adds to the excitement." This isn't anything like a modern turbocharged car.

 

[mustafur]

Clearly you've not watched the video or you would have heard these lines: "Because it's so mechanical the way it boosts if you hold the throttle steady it still adds boost, which is moderately terrifying." and "It isn't normally aspirated but yet its turbocharging adds to the excitement." This isn't anything like a modern turbocharged car.

I know it's not like a modern turbo, it's a really laggy high range 80s turbo that has been talked up as something special because of it's lag.

 

[Danoff]

Closing comment "I'd rather have [the original NSX-R] than a Ferrari F40 all day long".

 

[05XR8]

The NSX-R, is the last of its kind. Every sports/supercar went bonkers after it. I'd have it above any car today. Only one car to own forever? The NSX-R would be it.

 

[homeforsummer]

Would love an NSX-R, but it doesn't feel like the end-game to me implied by the term "pinnacle". Gordon Murray used the NSX for inspiration for the McLaren F1 for instance, but ultimately went a lot further with everything - I mean, one of the NSX-R's primary goals is light weight, but despite having a V12 the F1 is 130kg lighter than the NSX-R... That's as a result of lots of expensive materials and componentry obviously, but if using the best materials isn't representative of the pinnacle, what is?

It's interesting to see the parallels between a lot of cars mentioned here though. Mid-engined seems to be vital, as does naturally-aspirated, as does rear-wheel drive. Open- or closed-top doesn't seem as important. Minimal driver aids does, though that raises another interesting conundrum - if a car doesn't use all the technology available to it, can it be considered the pinnacle?

 

[Epic B]

Would love an NSX-R, but it doesn't feel like the end-game to me implied by the term "pinnacle". Gordon Murray used the NSX for inspiration for the McLaren F1 for instance, but ultimately went a lot further with everything - I mean, one of the NSX-R's primary goals is light weight, but despite having a V12 the F1 is 130kg lighter than the NSX-R... That's as a result of lots of expensive materials and componentry obviously, but if using the best materials isn't representative of the pinnacle, what is?

It's interesting to see the parallels between a lot of cars mentioned here though. Mid-engined seems to be vital, as does naturally-aspirated, as does rear-wheel drive. Open- or closed-top doesn't seem as important. Minimal driver aids does, though that raises another interesting conundrum - if a car doesn't use all the technology available to it, can it be considered the pinnacle?

I think it makes sense to have categories for cars with and without driving aids. Sometimes it's just as impressive what you can do without tech as what you can do with it. The McLaren F1 is impressive for what it does without tech, as is a Caterham 7. Something like the 911 Turbo would be an impressive "tech" car given how it can achieve extreme acceleration thanks to tech such as a twin clutch transmission and all wheel drive. I'd say the 911 GT3 would fit somewhere in between, especially since the 991 GT3 got a twin clutch box.

 

[Danoff]

Would love an NSX-R, but it doesn't feel like the end-game to me implied by the term "pinnacle". Gordon Murray used the NSX for inspiration for the McLaren F1 for instance, but ultimately went a lot further with everything - I mean, one of the NSX-R's primary goals is light weight, but despite having a V12 the F1 is 130kg lighter than the NSX-R... That's as a result of lots of expensive materials and componentry obviously, but if using the best materials isn't representative of the pinnacle, what is?

It is, if it contributes to the greatest overall package. The F1 is a more expensive package than the NSX-R, but is it greater overall? Or less more in this case? I can't get past the seating in the F1 - regardless of anything else. I can see why Bovingdon would choose the NSX over the F40, I think I might also. I wonder if he would say the same about the F50.

Edit:

Looks like probably not: http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/202830/millionpound_garage.html
https://drivetribe.com/p/jdm-an-addiction-aPmPtW9vTnucDkKisi9t-g?iid=NsnejWymQKe5yDVPRkKAFQ

 

[05XR8]

Would love an NSX-R, but it doesn't feel like the end-game to me implied by the term "pinnacle". Gordon Murray used the NSX for inspiration for the McLaren F1 for instance, but ultimately went a lot further with everything - I mean, one of the NSX-R's primary goals is light weight, but despite having a V12 the F1 is 130kg lighter than the NSX-R... That's as a result of lots of expensive materials and componentry obviously, but if using the best materials isn't representative of the pinnacle, what is?

It's interesting to see the parallels between a lot of cars mentioned here though. Mid-engined seems to be vital, as does naturally-aspirated, as does rear-wheel drive. Open- or closed-top doesn't seem as important. Minimal driver aids does, though that raises another interesting conundrum - if a car doesn't use all the technology available to it, can it be considered the pinnacle?

I'll go back to the 959. Has everything from every era(styling dated back to the 1930s, turbo tech, innovative engine configuration, lightweight materials in body and wheels, computer tech, awd, etc.), bar an electric engine.

Good thread @Danoff 👍

 

[mustafur]

Would love an NSX-R, but it doesn't feel like the end-game to me implied by the term "pinnacle". Gordon Murray used the NSX for inspiration for the McLaren F1 for instance, but ultimately went a lot further with everything - I mean, one of the NSX-R's primary goals is light weight, but despite having a V12 the F1 is 130kg lighter than the NSX-R... That's as a result of lots of expensive materials and componentry obviously, but if using the best materials isn't representative of the pinnacle, what is?

It's interesting to see the parallels between a lot of cars mentioned here though. Mid-engined seems to be vital, as does naturally-aspirated, as does rear-wheel drive. Open- or closed-top doesn't seem as important. Minimal driver aids does, though that raises another interesting conundrum - if a car doesn't use all the technology available to it, can it be considered the pinnacle?

The title says Sports car not Supercar, alot of what makes a good sports car is usability as well, which can be a strike against cars that don't have conventional doors or are too wide to have fun on normal roads.

Being mid engined really isn't vital for a good or even epic sports car, Supercar yeah I guess but not sports car.

 

[Nessy]

I'd like to nominate the NA 4 rotor 'Scoot' RX7. Maybe there's quite a few reasons why it shouldn't be considered the pinnacle but I thought it would still make a nice addition to the mix.