The Pinnacle of the ICE sports car

[homeforsummer]

The title says Sports car not Supercar, alot of what makes a good sports car is usability as well, which can be a strike against cars that don't have conventional doors or are too wide to have fun on normal roads.

By whose definition?

If we're to start throwing random sports car criteria around then we might as well go down the logical route and suggest that they should have some sporting ability - and since the McLaren F1 has won the world's greatest sports car race outright (Le Mans) it is unequivocally a sports car.

And supercars are sports cars. Before the term became a contraction they were generally referred to as "super sports cars". But by definition, they are sports cars taken to a higher degree of ability, which to me - even though I've been saying for almost a decade on this forum that you can have fun in quite slow cars - makes them closer to the "pinnacle" that this entire thread is discussing.

Being mid engined really isn't vital for a good or even epic sports car, Supercar yeah I guess but not sports car.

I'm not saying it's vital in genera - I've had plenty of fun in FR cars, and plenty in front-wheel drive cars too - but in context of this discussion, it's notable that a lot of mid-engined cars are coming up.

It is, if it contributes to the greatest overall package. The F1 is a more expensive package than the NSX-R, but is it greater overall? Or less more in this case? I can't get past the seating in the F1 - regardless of anything else. I can see why Bovingdon would choose the NSX over the F40, I think I might also. I wonder if he would say the same about the F50.

I've heard a lot of praise for the F1's seating position (it's theoretically optimal, just as a central seat is in a single-seater racing car) but it does make the process of getting in and out a bit of an arse.

As for whether it's greater - it's difficult to tell, since to my knowledge the two have never been put together into direct competition.

I'd forgotten that the NSX-R was our "car of the year" in 2002 though. Perhaps didn't have the absolute toughest competition that year (996.2 C4S came second, 575M third) but given multiple Porsche GT3s, the Zonda, Huayra, Ford GT, 458 Speciale and Cayman GT4 have also all won before, it's certainly up there with the best.

Edit: I love how dated that million pound garage seems, given you could break the million-pound barrier with just one or two cars now...

 

[Danoff]

Ok, I'm going to try a different tack with this thread since we seemed to have thoroughly investigated a sort of all-around prize. The thing is, there really is no reason to try to make one car do it all. Track cars are better at track performance than road cars are, they can be set up without compromises that you just have to have for the road. I think I'd probably not be particularly happy trying to live with an F50 day to day, and I'm guessing that a dedicated track car can out-do it at its own game. So here's an attempt at creating some food-for-thought breakouts of different sports car groups.

All around: Ferrari F50

As discussed above.

Road car: 997 GT3

Having never driven a 911, it's hard to know. I backed off from the RS just because it's wider and stiffer and probably not quite as nice on the road. It's narrower than the F50 which makes parking easier, and it won't cause traffic in front and behind you when you drive it down the road. It has room, it's livable, it works, and you can get it with a PDK, which would be better for use every day than a manual, especially in traffic. My understanding is that it doesn't suffer from the low speed clunky uncertainty of some of the DCTs, but having never driven one, I can't know.

Track car: Ultima GTR

Mid engine, absurd performance, no compromise solution for the track.

Rally car: Impreza WRC

I'm kinda biased here by the road-equivalent of the rally cars. I probably shouldn't be, but the impreza seems like a better platform over all than some of the other rally winners. I dunno, I struggle with this category.

Exposed Car: Ariel Atom v8

Maybe a caterham 7.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

All around: Ferrari F50

Based on Harris's review, I'd say the F50 is probably better suited to the track car position. From the sounds of it, it's just too wide, too fast, and requires too much revving out to come alive on the road.

Road car: 997 GT3

Personally, I'd argue that the GT3 is just too stiff and too hardcore to be classed as a road car. All around, perhaps, but the GT3 doesn't really have a point unless you can track it. I'd also add that I personally think the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 is probably the pinnacle of the GT3s, and it's the one I'd nominate if we're limiting ourselves to the track-focused 911s.

 

[Liquid]

Rally car: Impreza WRC

Honourable mentions for the Lancia Delta Integrale and the Ford Escort RS1600/1800.

 

[homeforsummer]

Based on Harris's review, I'd say the F50 is probably better suited to the track car position. From the sounds of it, it's just too wide, too fast, and requires too much revving out to come alive on the road.

Personally, I'd argue that the GT3 is just too stiff and too hardcore to be classed as a road car. All around, perhaps, but the GT3 doesn't really have a point unless you can track it. I'd also add that I personally think the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 is probably the pinnacle of the GT3s, and it's the one I'd nominate if we're limiting ourselves to the track-focused 911s.

I don't think either of those things are actually the case, from what I've heard.

Certainly not with regards to the GT3 - 996s were possibly a little extreme (though I wonder if that's one of the cars that no longer seems so bad, two decades down the line) but I'm led to believe 997s and 991s are fairly liveable. The 911R I drove certainly didn't seem too extreme for the road and that's mostly a mix of GT3 and GT3 RS.

 

[Sage Ages]

This kind of a difficult question for me to answer. The emphasis on ICE suggests that the engine should be the centerpiece, but since we're discussing sports cars and not just the engine itself, I'd have to find an accompanying chassis. I can name a few engines that I think are worthy of such a title, but not many sports cars.

 

[mustafur]

When it comes to Rally cars it would have to be the Lancer Evolution VI, Mitsubishi where soo confident in the car in the late 90s they kept it under group A rules which is basically Production spec and still beat the WRC Prototype based Impreza, Focus and Corollas.

Sure they had probably the best driver but that is a serious feat for a Car.

 

[MisterWaffles]

For my pick of the best ICE vehicle ever made, I'm going to go with the Ferrari 458. Take any version of the range you want but my personal choice would be the vanilla 2009-spec model in Rosso Scuderia, please. I could make many points about why this car is so great including the engine itself, the styling, the handling or the sound this beauty makes. I suppose since I'm making a bold statement I should back up my opinion.

First off, the engine. The Ferrari 458 features the venerable F136f 4.5L V8. The best part is that the RPM redline has been increased to 9,000. The 458 features one of the best acceleration soundtracks that a V8 could offer. The high redline means the excitement continues building higher and higher when the speed increases. The high redline doesn't nessicarily aid in performance or help with fuel economy, but it's one of the most damn enjoyable things to listen to.

Did I mention that critical reception for this car has been exceptionally high? Jeremy Clarkson called "one of the all-time greats". Chris Harris drove it in a beautifully edited video showcasing how much fun the car was. Fifth Gear chose the 458 over the 12c simply because it was more fun, not because it was faster. The 458 seems to have a soul or pleasurful quality that makes people who drive it seem to cling to it. The handling, engine, styling and sound all seem to play into the overall package to create the perfect driving experience for them.

IMO The styling is bold and dynamic. It looks sculpted and beautiful, yet somehow is also a functional piece of aerodynamics. The McLaren 12c traded its looks for functioning aerodynamics, yet somehow Ferrari came out with a stunning design that does both of those things.

Sure, the Ferrari 458 is certainly not the most advanced machine out there, the car isn't even that fast around the track anymore. It may not be very economic or affordable, it may not live up to the classics in some people's opinions, the 458 even caries a negative social stigma with it. But the reason this car is so great is because the passion behind it burns as red-hot as the paint. It's a passion that resonates with the car enthusiast to create an experience like no other. No celebrity driving the 458 to flaunt their wealth would ever understand what the car is really about.

The 458 is about pure passion and providing an experience that makes you yearn for more every time you see it. It's not a track weapon or a feat of technical engineering, it's just a hoot and that's all it needs to be.

​

 

[05XR8]

Don't forget it's a great grocery getter. Saw a 458 owner, pick up groceries from Woolies in South Melbourne.

 

[Inferno251]

All this talk of the demise of the ICE reminds me of this Top Gear clip at the ending of Season 13 (c. 2009):

 

[05XR8]

All this talk of the demise of the ICE reminds me of this Top Gear clip at the ending of Season 13 (c. 2009):

Best ending to a TG episode, ever.

There's still an AMV12? Yes?

 

[AlvaroF]

If I had lots of money today the first thing I would do is buy an Aston Martin V12 Vantage S with the 7 speed manual. The only thing that keeps me from naming it the pinnacle is that the platform is now really old and I keep thinking that this car came too late. So did the GT8 or GT12.

 

[Danoff]

The Lambo Huracan Performante. All the reviewers seem to love it. Engine is in the right spot, naturally aspirated, dual clutch is the way I'd have it, active aero for improved performance... hard to beat. Apparently it's not bad to live with either.

 

[AlvaroF]

When it came out I didn't like the Huracan. It was shrunken down Aventador and looked tame, in a very Lambo sense of the word. But the Performante just does it for me. And having tried it in Assetto Corsa (it's not real life, I know) I was blown away by it. Probably one of my favourite modern cars. I must say pretty damn close to the pinnacle.

 

[05XR8]

Revisiting my choice, after watching this.


I guess it isn't the pinnacle of the ICE I feel it is. Moreso, as was pointed out, showing the potential of the 911.

 

[desmodan]

If you want the true definition of the pinacle of the ICE it's probably best to step back from the whole sports/super car debate .
This will carry 5 people , in luxury , across a plowed field , while towing a horse box and hit 60 in just over 5 seconds .

 

[homeforsummer]

If you want the true definition of the pinacle of the ICE it's probably best to step back from the whole sports/super car debate .
This will carry 5 people , in luxury , across a plowed field , while towing a horse box and hit 60 in just over 5 seconds .

And it doesn't really handle. Range Rovers have an impressive breadth of abilities but beyond the sphere of luxury or offroad vehicles they're far from being the pinnacle of anything - too large, too isolating from anything you might consider driver feedback, and too heavy to be any sort of entertainment.

Edit: And not really the pinnacle of internal combustion either. Even the top supercharged 5-litre V8 isn't a hugely special engine, even if it sounds okay.

 

[Heldenzeit]

Revisiting my choice, after watching this.


I guess it isn't the pinnacle of the ICE I feel it is. Moreso, as was pointed out, showing the potential of the 911.

Supposedly really comfortable too! Boss needs to give me a ride....

 

[Turbo]

View attachment 714562 If you want the true definition of the pinacle of the ICE it's probably best to step back from the whole sports/super car debate .
This will carry 5 people , in luxury , across a plowed field , while towing a horse box and hit 60 in just over 5 seconds .

I can see where you're going with that, but I argue the G-Class is more so the pinnacle than the Rover. The G-Class can do all of those things you listed, but also has superb off-road capability as well. They can literally tackle any surface.

 

[homeforsummer]

And those are even less competent on the actual road.

 

[Joey D]

If we're going to talk about all-around use, I think something like the Volvo V90 Cross Country is probably more in line with being a "pinnacle".

It has a ton of passenger room, it's luxurious, can tow 3,500 lbs, AWD, extremely safe, and hits 60 in around 6 seconds. It's also halfway decent to drive on the road and its 2.0-liter T6 engine has 316hp thanks to a turbo and supercharger all while gettings around 23 mpg.

While I don't think it's the actual pinnacle of what's capable with a ICE, it does seem like a better chose than a Land Rover or G-Wagon.

 

[Turbo]

And those are even less competent on the actual road.

That's true, but it wasn't exactly designed to be a track star. From what I've heard, G-Classes deliver a quiet, comfortable ride on the pavement, and has good off-road performance. It does handle poorly, but so does basically every vehicle over 5000lbs.

As of right now, it is not possible for a vehicle, car or SUV, to have both superb on and off road performance. There must be some sort of trade-off. However, the G-Class and the V90 XC that @Joey D mentioned are the closest to being great on and off road.

 

[TexRex]

"Usain Bolt may be fast but I bet he sucks on a rugby field."

Is there really a debate over what sport is being referenced when talking of sports cars? I don't really think a Veyron is a sports car, but it's sure as 🤬 more of a sports car than a Range Rover is.

 

[AlvaroF]

On the topic of off road stuff, I've got to say that the E400 4x4² is probably my pinnacle. Yes, it's not a production car, yes it might not be as competent all rounder as a V90 Cross Country, like @Joey D mentioned, but as far as engineering exercises and what they were able to achieve is damn impressive and rather fascinating.

 

[homeforsummer]

G-Classes deliver a quiet, comfortable ride on the pavement

Not in my experience. I'd say a Range Rover - even a shiny, fancy new one - is better off road than a G-class is on it.

But as @TexRex highlights, the SUV discussion is fairly moot anyway. The thread is about sports cars, and even if it was about automobiles in general, Range Rovers and G-classes are far from being the pinnacle even if they do go further into the wilderness than regular cars.

 

[Epic B]

"Usain Bolt may be fast but I bet he sucks on a rugby field."

Is there really a debate over what sport is being referenced when talking of sports cars? I don't really think a Veyron is a sports car, but it's sure as 🤬 more of a sports car than a Range Rover is.

The Veyron is definitely a supercar but it does lean more towards being a GT. But I'd still say it deserves to be here. I don't think the Ranger Rover is really sporty, except maybe the Range Rover Sport SVR, which I still think doesn't belong here.

 

[Galaxander96]

My personal vote would be for the Honda S2000 F20C NA 4cyl. Not only does it sound amazing and rev to 9k rpm, it had the record for the highest specific output of a naturally aspirated engine for roughly a decade before the Ferrari 458 Italia edged that out.

derp, can't delete my post.