The Political Satire/Meme Thread

[Sander 001]

 

[eran0004]

This symbol just flat out has nothing to do with white supremacy. Any schoolboy of the last 20 years should be able to tell you this.

I’m sure those schoolboys are largely unaware of it since the symbol has only started being used in that context in the past year or so.

Sure, when they were in school it was a perfectly innocent symbol. Today though it’s not that simple anymore.

 

[MaxAttack]

I’m sure those schoolboys are largely unaware of it since the symbol has only started being used in that context in the past year or so.

Sure, when they were in school it was a perfectly innocent symbol. Today though it’s not that simple anymore.

I disagree. Meaning is about perception, and only the most weak-willed of fools (in my opinion) would allow internet trolls to change their perception of the "I get to punch you if you look" gesture into some codified masonic handshake for racists.

In fact the whole idea of the troll is to poke fun at and highlight how easily influenced people's perceptions of symbols and words are by media hype.

So really you have a choice. Don't be offended, removing all power from this little troll job, and let groups of blokes use this glorious tradition to punch each other and thus form the bonds of brotherhood long associated with jobs like the military or being a firefighter. Or, you can choose - yes, choose - to believe this is now a membership badge of the KKK, and cause a whole ton of unnecessary bother to a group of chaps who just wanted to have a laugh at their photoshoot, much to the joy of some fat little 4channer somewhere.

I recognise this post comes across somewhat scathing, but I really only have everyone's sanity as my interest.

 

[Northstar]

We also live in a country where in a few months thousands of people will rush out and spends hundreds on a new video game console. What's your point?

 

[Sander 001]

 

[eran0004]

I disagree. Meaning is about perception, and only the most weak-willed of fools (in my opinion) would allow internet trolls to change their perception of the "I get to punch you if you look" gesture into some codified masonic handshake for racists.

In fact the whole idea of the troll is to poke fun at and highlight how easily influenced people's perceptions of symbols and words are by media hype.

So really you have a choice. Don't be offended, removing all power from this little troll job, and let groups of blokes use this glorious tradition to punch each other and thus form the bonds of brotherhood long associated with jobs like the military or being a firefighter. Or, you can choose - yes, choose - to believe this is now a membership badge of the KKK, and cause a whole ton of unnecessary bother to a group of chaps who just wanted to have a laugh at their photoshoot, much to the joy of some fat little 4channer somewhere.

I recognise this post comes across somewhat scathing, but I really only have everyone's sanity as my interest.

It did start as some kind of weird trolling attempt, but now it’s genuinely used as a white supremacy gesture.

 

[Northstar]

It did start as some kind of weird trolling attempt, but now it’s genuinely used as a white supremacy gesture.

Baseball hats are extremely popular in gangs. That doesn't mean everyone that wears a baseball hat is a gangster and if you tried claiming such a thing you would likely be laughed at before your claim even gained a hint of traction. Things like this should be treated much the same way, just because some people do the gesture for a nefarious reason, doesn't mean everyone does it for that same nefarious reason.

 

[TexRex]

Baseball hats are extremely popular in gangs. That doesn't mean everyone that wears a baseball hat is a gangster and if you tried claiming such a thing you would likely be laughed at before your claim even gained a hint of traction. Things like this should be treated much the same way, just because some people do the gesture for a nefarious reason, doesn't mean everyone does it for that same nefarious reason.

Valid, valid argument.

Something as benign as a cap does not identify an individual as having malicious intent. However, as you suggest, there exists the potential for groups with malicious intent to co-opt the cap as a means to identify themselves to individuals within and outside of that group.

Consider a symbol that's been used by a wide array of groups without malicious intent for centuries, either as a means to identify themselves or simply as a part of their language. Along comes a group who co-opt the symbol and fly it proudly as they murder millions upon millions of people. Defying reason, that symbol is now synonymous with that group despite its continued use outside of that group.

Take note that they're not facing the same direction, but if you saw the second example by itself, would the difference be apparent?

 

[Dennisch]

All I can think of with this ok sign situation is that somewhere in a virtual basement, a group of trolls is having some serious fun with themselves.

 

[Sander 001]

It did start as some kind of weird trolling attempt, but now it’s genuinely used as a white supremacy gesture.

True and no amount of false equivalents detract from that.

 

[Northstar]

false equivalents

You're going to need to elaborate as neither of the examples posted are false equivalents.

Granted I'm sure in reality you will just respond as you usually do, with a completely unrelated thing you found on facetitter.

 

[Sander 001]

You're going to need to elaborate as neither of the examples posted are false equivalents.

Granted I'm sure in reality you will just respond as you usually do, with a completely unrelated thing you found on facetitter.

I'm going to have to explain to you how a particular hand gesture is different from a common clothing item

 

[TexRex]

*sigh*

 

[Northstar]

I'm going to have to explain to you how a particular hand gesture is different from a common clothing item

In the context of this discussion, yes! Both are innocuous 99.9% of the time but some people have co-opted them and turned them into nefarious ones. So do go on and explain how they are different.

Also, just for fun, let's look at what the ADL says about the gesture.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

The overwhelming usage of the “okay” hand gesture today is still its traditional purpose as a gesture signifying assent or approval. As a result, someone who uses the symbol cannot be assumed to be using the symbol in either a trolling or, especially, white supremacist context unless other contextual evidence exists to support the contention. Since 2017, many people have been falsely accused of being racist or white supremacist for using the “okay” gesture in its traditional and innocuous sense.

Other, similar-seeming hand gestures have also been mistakenly assumed to have white supremacist connotations as a result of the “okay” hoax. One of these is the so-called “Circle Game,” in which people attempt to trick each other into looking at an okay-like hand gesture made somewhere below the waist.

Because of the traditional meaning of the “okay” hand gesture, as well as other usages unrelated to white supremacy, particular care must be taken not to jump to conclusions about the intent behind someone who has used the gesture.

 

[Dennisch]

I'm going to have to explain to you how a particular hand gesture is different from a common clothing item

 

[Sander 001]

In the context of this discussion, yes! Both are innocuous 99.9% of the time but some people have co-opted them and turned them into nefarious ones. So do go on and explain how they are different.

Also, just for fun, let's look at what the ADL says about the gesture.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

That's a different gesture being shown.

 

[Northstar]

That's a different gesture being shown.

1) No, it's not.
2) ...

In the context of this discussion, yes!

Guessing I shouldn't hold my breath for the answer.

 

[Sander 001]

1) No, it's not.
2) ...



Guessing I shouldn't hold my breath for the answer.

From your own link: "By 2019, at least some white supremacists seem to have abandoned the ironic or satiric intent behind the original trolling campaign and used the symbol as a sincere expression of white supremacy, such as when Australian white supremacist Brenton Tarrant flashed the symbol during a March 2019 courtroom appearance soon after his arrest for murdering 50 people in a shooting spree at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand."

NO INVESTIGATION NECESSARY

 

[Northstar]

From your own link: "By 2019, at least some white supremacists seem to have abandoned the ironic or satiric intent behind the original trolling campaign and used the symbol as a sincere expression of white supremacy, such as when Australian white supremacist Brenton Tarrant flashed the symbol during a March 2019 courtroom appearance soon after his arrest for murdering 50 people in a shooting spree at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand."

NO INVESTIGATION NECESSARY

I thought they weren't the same gesture? Also, I see you're just ignoring the rest of it (mainly the bit I posted above) and in fact doing the exact opposite of what they recommend doing.

At this point I'm starting to think you're just here trolling.

Also....

In the context of this discussion, yes!

Since you're apparently far more intelligent than I am, it seems odd you still haven't enlightened me as to the difference between the examples.

 

[Sander 001]

There's enlightenment and then there's providing an education. And education don't come cheap.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:

 

[Northstar]

There's enlightenment and then there's providing an education. And education don't come cheap.

Than it's a good thing public schooling exists, isn't it?

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:

Nope, still waiting...

In the context of this discussion, yes!

You asked if I needed you to explain the difference and I apparently do. So stop pretending to be a boxer and do it!

 

[Sander 001]

Than it's a good thing public schooling exists, isn't it?



Nope, still waiting...



You asked if I needed you to explain the difference and I apparently do. So stop pretending to be a boxer and do it!

I don't see it as the same but I guess there are some that do. So for those folks, we can't overlook this again:

"By 2019, at least some white supremacists seem to have abandoned the ironic or satiric intent behind the original trolling campaign and used the symbol as a sincere expression of white supremacy, such as when Australian white supremacist Brenton Tarrant flashed the symbol during a March 2019 courtroom appearance soon after his arrest for murdering 50 people in a shooting spree at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand."

No, let's protect these potential threats to win internet points.

 

[Northstar]

So for those folks, we can't overlook this again:

But we have no problem overlooking the rest where they say that a vast majority are not white supremacists and we shouldn't jump to conclusions?

There certainly seems to be someone here trying to get "internet points" and it's not me.

Oh, and I really should have a macro for this.

In the context of this discussion, yes! Both are innocuous 99.9% of the time but some people have co-opted them and turned them into nefarious ones. So do go on and explain how they are different.

It's a good thing I decided to not hold my breath!

 

[Dennisch]

I'm pretty sure he is sitting in his basement laughing at everyone.

 

[Sander 001]

But we have no problem overlooking the rest where they say that a vast majority are not white supremacists and we shouldn't jump to conclusions?

There certainly seems to be someone here trying to get "internet points" and it's not me.

Oh, and I really should have a macro for this.



It's a good thing I decided to not hold my breath!

I've been saying all along that we should wait for the conclusion of the investigation and now you're suddenly agreeing with me by saying that nobody "should jump to conclusions."

 

[Northstar]

I've been saying all along that we should wait for the conclusion of the investigation and now you're suddenly agreeing with me by saying that nobody "should jump to conclusions."

These are your posts on the subject prior to my involvement. At no time do you say we should be patient and wait for the conclusion of any investigation.

Causes more polarity? I can't think of many things more important than being adversarial against white supremacism.

Here you apparently forgot arson, murder, robbery, assault and rape exist, just wanted to point that out.

I didn't know the investigation had concluded.

Whatever the case may be, these things creep up gradually so best to remain vigilant and educate people.

--------

Back to our regularly scheduled programming

Here it seems like you don't care what the result of the investigation even is.

True and no amount of false equivalents detract from that.

If anything you seemingly have been arguing their guilt from the beginning.

I've also come to terms with the fact you won't be answering my question, so I'm going to steal your line instead!

Back to our regularly scheduled programming!

 

[Sander 001]

 

[eran0004]

Baseball hats are extremely popular in gangs. That doesn't mean everyone that wears a baseball hat is a gangster and if you tried claiming such a thing you would likely be laughed at before your claim even gained a hint of traction. Things like this should be treated much the same way, just because some people do the gesture for a nefarious reason, doesn't mean everyone does it for that same nefarious reason.

Of course. But the world is not black and white and somewhere in between “the gesture has no connection to white supremacy what so ever” and “the gesture is a only used by white supremacists” there’s reason to investigate.

 

[UKMikey]

But the world is not black and white

It is to those white supremacists. (Sorry.)

 

[Liquid]