The Renault Alpine- official pics of the new A110
- Thread starter RocZX
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- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
The waistline is no taller than the tires.
- 11,826
- Marin County
The damn-near-universally accepted worst part about the Alfa 4C is the Engine and gearbox. The Caterham 7 (at least most versions) has a normally aspirated (or in the case of the 620, supercharged) high output 4 cylinder. Those aren't boring at all. Its the sort of sludgy 200-250hp turbo 4 cylinders that I think are so utterly boring. They sound boring, they have boring throttle response, they have boring power delivery, they are heavy, they need lots of cooling, and they don't even (generally) make cool turbo noises. They are engines for appliances. There are a few notable exceptions....like the 4G63 which is an absolutely incredible engine, and some of the Cosworth I4T's are good. The 2.3 ecoboost ain't too bad I suppose, but it still runs out of puff fairly early on the tacho.
- 11,826
- Marin County
- 4,229
- UK
I used to own an S2000, so my opinion's a bit bias when i say i think it sounds better than the 4C.
I still love the sound of the 4C though, and i know i'm probably plucking at straws.. but i imagine there's going to be an acoustic difference, with how the mic on the recording equipment picks up the engine sound (something in front of the mic as opposed to something behind it), of a mid-engined hardtop compared to a front-engined soft top, (though the S2K could be fitted with a hardtop).
- 11,826
- Marin County
I used to own an S2000, so my opinion's a bit bias when i say i think it sounds better than the 4C.
I still love the sound of the 4C though, and i know i'm probably plucking at straws.. but i imagine there's going to be an acoustic difference, with how the mic on the recording equipment picks up the engine sound (something in front of the mic as opposed to something behind it), of a mid-engined hardtop compared to a front-engined soft top, (though the S2K could be fitted with a hardtop).
Ever heard a K20-powered Elise?
- 4,229
- UK
No. The prospect does sound mouthwatering though.Ever heard a K20-powered Elise?
I remember reading about a B16 engined S1 Elise though, many years ago. I think it was frowned upon by Lotus, because they'd already made plans to use the Toyota engine, but hadn't got around to it (they were still using the K series Rover unit at the time).
- 11,826
- Marin County
This may be approaching getting off topic, but I post this here because I hope the Renault Alpine has character like this:
- 4,229
- UK
If the *Alpine* ends up with a 4 pot that sounds like that, i doubt anybody will be disappointed.
The mic/audio recording equipment in that vid, is clearly placed within the internals of the engine though.
*Brought back on topic*
- 8,721
Even if they made it a V4, there's no chance it'll use that crank configuration (180 degree, same as the venerable VFR 800 and Aprilias; Ducatis are ~70 degree), if it's going to be uneven firing, which is generally not a good idea for NVH, it'll use the 360-crank. It'd more likely be even-firing, like the old Cologne / Essex Ford V4s, so basically a folded-up boxer. The VMax is a beast, though (but notice how the stock exhaust makes it sound like a boxer, ignoring the intake - that's the 180 degree interval despite the crossplane-like firing overall, which the X-pipe restores by merging the banks briefly).
The problem with turbo cars in general is that the force feeding historically causes people to abandon normal tuning concepts, and the same applies for sound.
In short, this sounds like the 360 crank V4:
And this sounds like a 1950s GP / Indy car:
They just have to pick the right one; I personally prefer a mixture:
More subtle variations are hard to get without a proper tubular manifold, for instance TVR did a great job with its AJPV8 powered cars, which is also a mixture of sorts.
The Megane Rs are like the first type, and the packaging is very tight. The current BTCC cars mostly if not universally use something that sounds like the middle option, but is most probably tubular.
Incidentally, the sound belies a performance advantage through bunching pulses up in a specific way, like with the current F1 cars - notice Ferrari's was the cleanest-sounding last year, Mercedes the roughest; the Ferrari sounds rougher this year... Unfortunately, it affects efficiency, so it's a compromise.
Ferrari pics here.
Mercedes pics here.
The defining character of the "reference" vehicles posted is the intake sound, something of a difficulty with a turbocharged car. The sound is still there, it just tends to get quieter as boost builds due to the flow changing the acoustics of the tubes; all you're left with (that can escape the ducting) is all that whooshing.
Those "boring" VAG turbo fours sometimes use a "noise pipe" that connects the car's interior to the intake manifold acoustically, using a membrane in the pipe like a speaker. Since turbos usually have an interesting intake manifold configuration, sound wise, that could be very successful. But VW removed theirs (and replaced it with a speaker...) because it's extra complication, and it affected throttle response somehow.
We have to remember that cars need to be quiet in this day and age, and the interesting configurations tend to be harder to silence (in a way almost precisely because they sound "better").
In that sense it's increasingly difficult to get good sounding everyday engines, and that means it costs more, so it has to be a very important part of the car's overall design to justify it.
- 11,826
- Marin County
Even if they made it a V4, there's no chance it'll use that crank configuration (180 degree, same as the venerable VFR 800 and Aprilias; Ducatis are ~70 degree), if it's going to be uneven firing, which is generally not a good idea for NVH, it'll use the 360-crank. It'd more likely be even-firing, like the old Cologne / Essex Ford V4s, so basically a folded-up boxer. The VMax is a beast, though (but notice how the stock exhaust makes it sound like a boxer, ignoring the intake - that's the 180 degree interval despite the crossplane-like firing overall, which the X-pipe restores by merging the banks briefly).
The problem with turbo cars in general is that the force feeding historically causes people to abandon normal tuning concepts, and the same applies for sound.
In short, this sounds like the 360 crank V4:
View attachment 334850
And this sounds like a 1950s GP / Indy car:
View attachment 334848
They just have to pick the right one; I personally prefer a mixture:
View attachment 334849
More subtle variations are hard to get without a proper tubular manifold, for instance TVR did a great job with its AJPV8 powered cars, which is also a mixture of sorts.
The Megane Rs are like the first type, and the packaging is very tight. The current BTCC cars mostly if not universally use something that sounds like the middle option, but is most probably tubular.
Incidentally, the sound belies a performance advantage through bunching pulses up in a specific way, like with the current F1 cars - notice Ferrari's was the cleanest-sounding last year, Mercedes the roughest; the Ferrari sounds rougher this year... Unfortunately, it affects efficiency, so it's a compromise.
Ferrari pics here.
Mercedes pics here.
The defining character of the "reference" vehicles posted is the intake sound, something of a difficulty with a turbocharged car. The sound is still there, it just tends to get quieter as boost builds due to the flow changing the acoustics of the tubes; all you're left with (that can escape the ducting) is all that whooshing.
Those "boring" VAG turbo fours sometimes use a "noise pipe" that connects the car's interior to the intake manifold acoustically, using a membrane in the pipe like a speaker. Since turbos usually have an interesting intake manifold configuration, sound wise, that could be very successful. But VW removed theirs (and replaced it with a speaker...) because it's extra complication, and it affected throttle response somehow.
We have to remember that cars need to be quiet in this day and age, and the interesting configurations tend to be harder to silence (in a way almost precisely because they sound "better").
In that sense it's increasingly difficult to get good sounding everyday engines, and that means it costs more, so it has to be a very important part of the car's overall design to justify it.
Unfortunately, tubular headers are nearly useless on a turbo car. OEM's almost universally choose cast iron log manifolds due to longevity and cost issues because the performance tradeoff just isn't there. They do make a turbo engine sound better, but that's about all they do. Which leaves most turbo 4 cylinders sounding rather boring from the factory.
Regarding intake, my brother's car (Focus ST) has a sound tube which amplifies intake noise to a degree that is rather absurd for a turbo engine. Despite the fact that it's 'genuine', it sounds artificial. If it's a turbo engine, I would prefer to hear....turbo. I like the way Pagani developed the Huayra in this regard. It's turbo and you ****ing know it. It doesn't sound as good as a Zonda, to me, but at least it sounds honest.
Interestingly, due to the unique way in which turbochargers dampen high energy pressure waves (because its a big block of dense cast iron) I think that turbochargers actually make rotaries sound better. Rotary engines, of course, do not have exhaust valves so there is literally nothing to dampen the energy of the exhaust pulses as they exit the engine which causes lots of harmonic havoc with the metal in header and exhaust. You effectively need to either wrap the entire exhaust in some sort of thermal blanket (which I basically did), have 3 cats + 2 mufflers (factory) or have a resonator that is *actually* the length of the entire midpipe (mind train exhaust) to quell this annoying metallic rininging/raspy noise. Turbochargers do this job very well.
That's why FD's sound beautiful and n/a FC's with flowmasters (rattlemasters) sound worse than just about anything despite the engine being largely the same. Also, rotary engines absolutely destroy glasspack mufflers, usually in a matter of hours.
- 8,721
The point was only that subtle changes, even in the smallest possible cast manifolds (the two log items I posted), can yield vastly different sounds - if castings were practical (mainly weight) in this way, you could make any sound with them you could with a proper tubular item.
Tubular manifolds are a bad idea for turbocharged cars only because of the typical execution: thin walls and hence thin welds. Welded-up thick-gauge cast pipe-sections perform admirably, and some OEMs use manifolds exactly like that (also a little bit of knowledge of metallurgy goes a long way, specifically heat treatment and stress relaxation). The Evo 9 manifold I posted a picture of would be fine - effectively a "tubular-cast" manifold, and it has the ideal pulse separation for a twin-scroll turbo if needed. There's nothing stopping the use of separate castings, either, except the space for couplings.
Turbos extract "acoustic energy" from the exhaust because they extract pressure (which is all sound is) and heat energy from the exhaust, by converting both to kinetic energy in the nozzle of the turbine. So it has a dramatic effect on the amplitude of the pressure pulse variation. It's this amplitude that is difficult to silence: merging pulses out of phase offsets the peaks and troughs greatly (i.e. making it quieter) before you get to any silencing hardware, which is why it's universal on cars these days.
Rotaries have two disadvantages: fewer pulses (or rather fewer phases, because fewer rotors, analogous to fewer cylinders) to merge in order to reduce mean variation, and the rapid onset of opening of port area causing much faster blowdown, and hence higher pressure peaks. Even though it's only maintained for a shorter time, it's this amplitude that destroys glasspacks, and incites vibration (rasp) in the pipes themselves.
I agree that if a sound tube is included, it should be balanced - "unnoticeable", even. But saying a turbo car should sound like an S2000 and then that it should sound like a turbo seems to me to be conflicting objectives!
- 11,826
- Marin County
I agree that if a sound tube is included, it should be balanced - "unnoticeable", even. But saying a turbo car should sound like an S2000 and then that it should sound like a turbo seems to me to be conflicting objectives!
I never claimed that. I claimed that an S2000 sounds better than a 4C. This alludes to my bias towards n/a engines and that this Renault Alpine should be one.
Yes I can.
- 8,721
That's fine, I like NA engines too.
The sound tube can make a turbo engine sound more like an NA engine, if done right - the LFA is an example of the approach "done right", and it's not even turbo (nor does it actually use a "tube", per se)! The easier way is to use that generation / cancellation tech with the car's sound system; Renault have form on that front, I believe.
The V6 might well be NA, if they make it, but it won't offer much more performance or, crucially, refinement over a turbo four that way, and will be a big step up in emissions and fuel consumption (assuming typical displacements). A four cylinder is not likely to have more than 200 bhp in NA trim; not unlike the reborn 86, and for the same reasons. I don't think that'll be acceptable for a car this size and intended cost ("premium"). There's still the prospect of (eventual) hybrid integration to consider.
It's unfortunately a sign of the world we live in at this moment in time. Not even Honda is using NA engines in performance models any more, and look at Ferrari! No better time to tackle that "boring" moniker with something interesting instead.
- 5,065
- Fort Worth
- That_sneaky_azN
Seeing how well Renault Sport has done in terms of performance, I would feel that it would be better if the engine for this Alpine be that of a performance-driven (obviously) N/A Inline-4 developed by R.S., naturally aspirated for the sake of heritage.
RocZX
Premium
- 8,849
- New York
Alpine to show new concept/production car at LeMans http://www.lemans.alpine-cars.com
First model will be the 911 of Alpine.
First model will be the 911 of Alpine.
AutoCarAutoCar
Downhill Dino
Premium
- 11,753
- Maryland
- DownhillDinosaur
I'm in, 100%, let's go Alpine. Well, immediate impressions says, Porsche, Audi, and... RX-7. Very nice.
- 157
- South Korea
- BLUeR909
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- BLUeR909
- 9,232
- Valongo
- Hcclipper
Nice, very nice. It almost looks like a sedan from some angles, but the overall design is good. You can really tell that Alpine was going for a "modern A110" look, while using some of the details from its predecessor. You know, things like the "crossed" lamps and such. And other than the side profile and maybe the rims, I can't really see what else the Alpine VGT gave this car as inspiration, haha.
Well, if anything, the other brand that used that name won't give Alpine/Renault much grief, if you know what I mean...
Well, if anything, the other brand that used that name won't give Alpine/Renault much grief, if you know what I mean...
- 9,232
- Valongo
- Hcclipper
