The Trump Impeachment Thread

  • Thread starter Dotini
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Will the current Articles of Impeachment ever be sent from the House to the Senate?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
Hey the guy that ignores people!
Hey the guy who can't seem to grasp that posts made by ignored users can be revealed with a single click! Thick much?

Did you miss where I said Trump is guilty and admitted it himself or did you ignore that post cause it didn't give you a reason to chime in and feel superior?
Was it on this page?

*scrolls up*

Ah, nope. Just two other posts from you on this page and neither contains a remark even remotely to that effect. As the only posts of yours that I've seen in a fair amount of time are on this page, I guess I saw no such remark.
 
Something I was trying to explain to PZ in the other thread but I doubt he'll get it or agree.
I adressed that in an edit in the other thread. I realised I read your post wrong. How the investigation started is not relevant to the crimes Trump is being impeached for. If there were violations, then it is a seperate crime.
 
I adressed that in an edit in the other thread. I realised I read your post wrong. How the investigation started is not relevant to the crimes Trump is being impeached for. If there were violations, then it is a seperate crime.
I agree on that, but do you not think it's a slippery slope starting investigations or serving warrants were the basis was a lie and people wrongfully get killed or injured?
Hey the guy who can't seem to grasp that posts made by ignored users can be revealed with a single click!
Then why bother to ignore me??? You have no problem chiming in after clicking that little button I know nothing about. Try clicking the little green button at the top of the page! It does something magical!
 
I agree on that, but do you not think it's a slippery slope starting investigations or serving warrants were the basis was a lie and people wrongfully get killed or injured?
Then why bother to ignore me??? You have no problem chiming in after clicking that little button I know nothing about. Try clicking the little green button at the top of the page! It does something magical!

No as long as the investigations are thorough. However they can be a waste of money and manpower. Swatting are not an accurate comparison though.

It is much worse if people are not held accountable for their crimes. Especially a president of a country.
 
Then why bother to ignore me???
Simples. Because it effectively constitutes opting out of seeing your ramblings, and I can then make the choice to see them in the event that I can't distill their contents from others' replies.

:)
 
Gohmert is probably in the clear on account of the fact that he did not specifically name the whistleblower, but merely included their name in a list of people relevant to the case. Ironically, if anything, those who have confirmed that the whistleblower's name was among those in that list have done the person a greater disservice. That being said, it's pretty clear that most people already know who it is already* - ironically (again), perhaps in this day and age that person would be safer if their name was made public.

The question for me is why are some people (notably Trump himself and Rand Paul) so vehement that the person be publicly named? Clearly, they must believe (or know) that there's good reason to do so. In Trump's case, I wouldn't rule out anything, from political gain to simple personal spite, but Paul? I'm surprised by his repeated calls to out the whistleblower, and although I don't agree with his politics, I reckon that his motives are at least more genuine than Trump's, though that wouldn't be hard.

Wikipedia has a long list of whistleblowers. Some are heroes and others villains or traitors. Some have been killed, fired, forced into hiding or disgrace. The Whistleblower Protection Act is intended to protect the whistleblower from retribution by the employer, not prevent disclosure by the press. The whistleblower in the Trump case is a CIA analyst whose name is now known and published in the open press. He is a registered Democrat thought to have close association with Walter Brennan, Joe Biden and specialization in Ukraine. He was once assigned to the White House but removed for leaks and reassigned to Langley. Possibly Paul believes he is part of an highly organized operation to remove the President from office - sort of an attempted coup d'etat. Highly experienced Special Prosecutor John Dunham has opened a criminal inquiry into all this, with Grand Jury and subpoena powers.
 
The Whistleblower Protection Act is intended to protect the whistleblower from retribution by the employer, not prevent disclosure by the press.

Disclosure to the press can be retribution from the analyst's employer (the US Government). If someone comes to me with a concern, I can't go blabbing to the press about it in an attempt to discredit them or put them in jeopardy.
 
Wikipedia has a long list of whistleblowers. Some are heroes and others villains or traitors. Some have been killed, fired, forced into hiding or disgrace. The Whistleblower Protection Act is intended to protect the whistleblower from retribution by the employer, not prevent disclosure by the press. The whistleblower in the Trump case is a CIA analyst whose name is now known and published in the open press. He is a registered Democrat thought to have close association with Walter Brennan, Joe Biden and specialization in Ukraine. He was once assigned to the White House but removed for leaks and reassigned to Langley. Possibly Paul believes he is part of an highly organized operation to remove the President from office - sort of an attempted coup d'etat. Highly experienced Special Prosecutor John Dunham has opened a criminal inquiry into all this, with Grand Jury and subpoena powers.

Nowhere here did you say that the whistle-blower was wrong. Dotini, I think you need just embrace the real you. It's time to buy some MAGA-swag. Wear it proudly, you've really earned it. I know its excruciating for you to not just finally say "Donald Trump can do anything he wants because he is the law". Do it! Get it over with. Don't bottle it up anymore!
 
The Whistleblower Protection Act is intended to protect the whistleblower from retribution by the employer, not prevent disclosure by the press.

This whistleblower's employer is presumably the US government. A smear campaign can be retribution.

The whistleblower in the Trump case is a CIA analyst whose name is now known and published in the open press. He is a registered Democrat thought to have close association with Walter Brennan, Joe Biden and specialization in Ukraine. He was once assigned to the White House but removed for leaks and reassigned to Langley.

...and blew this whistle on Trump's abuse of power, resulting in his impeachment.

Possibly Paul believes he is part of an highly organized operation to remove the President from office - sort of an attempted coup d'etat.

I think this "possible" belief is at the core of the republican position.
 
Nowhere here did you say that the whistle-blower was wrong. Dotini, I think you need just embrace the real you. It's time to buy some MAGA-swag. Wear it proudly, you've really earned it. I know its excruciating for you to not just finally say "Donald Trump can do anything he wants because he is the law". Do it! Get it over with. Don't bottle it up anymore!

Negative, friend. I do not and cannot wear Trump swag, you know that I live in the heart of the most liberal city in the universe and I'd be trampled to death! I do, however, wear CombatCon swag :D. You and all here have known from the beginning that I'm not a fan of Trump. Gore Vidal has said correctly that the first requirement of every politician is tact, something that Trump has not an ounce of. But you are right in that a sitting US President cannot be arrested or tried for common crimes - it's in the law. But he can be impeached. I see no problem with that. Let the chips fall where they may. My personal cup of revenge/justice was filled when I saw - live on TV - Nixon resign in disgrace.

Whether the whistleblower was right or wrong, I simply don't know. I trust we will find out in the fullness of time. I feel no excruciation or joy for Trump. He is a loudmouth New York billionaire playboy who can take care of himself without my assistance one way or another. All I feel is amusement at the eternal folly and vanity of humanity.

I'll be taking the rest of the afternoon off for some errands, including my weekly fencing lesson - today with Spanish rapier.
 
Negative, friend. I do not and cannot wear Trump swag, you know that I live in the heart of the most liberal city in the universe and I'd be trampled to death!

So it's not that you don't want to. Also, my San Francisco outliberals your Seattle any day of the week.

But you are right in that a sitting US President cannot be arrested or tried for common crimes - it's in the law.

It's interesting that this was your response to:

Donald Trump can do anything he wants because he is the law

Your stance is that there are no ethical limits to presidential behavior. You would cluck your tongue and wax disconnectedly about the legal ambiguity even if he was murdering children on a daily basis. I hope you can appreciate how cynical and awful your position is, even if, like everything else, you relegate it to an arms-length "well that's just the way it is".
 
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Whether the whistleblower was right or wrong, I simply don't know. I trust we will find out in the fullness of time.

How?

In what manner do you propose to find out? The facts are out. The lines drawn are partisan and self-serving. I have a suspicion that you intend to wait to see if the Senate votes to remove to see if the whistleblower was right or wrong. And in doing that, you defer your own judgment of the facts to the very people you have accused of lying and manipulating.

The whistleblower has already been proven right multiple ways. Not just that it is clear that the act was done (from trump's admission, and all corroborating testimony), but also in that Trump's impeachment will occur. The whistleblower would have been right to blow the whistle even if impeachment did not occur from the report. It's still the right call to raise awareness to possible transgressions. This was obviously not frivolous, or it would not have come this far. In fact very substantial complaints about the president have been left by the wayside because they didn't rise to the level of impeachment. So the whistleblower was obviously right to blow the whistle, given that it will have resulted in the 3rd impeachment of a president (a 4th adoption of articles of impeachment).

So the whistleblower was right at least twice over. Once because the matter had substance worthy of investigation. And twice because Trump's admission of guilt and corroboration testimony demonstrates that the transgression has occurred.

All you're waiting for is to find out what the people you already stated are self-serving liars will say about it in the Senate. And for some reason you hold that opinion over the opinion of the House.
 
It’s like taking this political stunt seriously.
Lack of grasp on reality...

Whether the whistleblower was right or wrong, I simply don't know.

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How?

In what manner do you propose to find out? The facts are out. The lines drawn are partisan and self-serving. I have a suspicion that you intend to wait to see if the Senate votes to remove to see if the whistleblower was right or wrong. And in doing that, you defer your own judgment of the facts to the very people you have accused of lying and manipulating.

The whistleblower has already been proven right multiple ways. Not just that it is clear that the act was done (from trump's admission, and all corroborating testimony), but also in that Trump's impeachment will occur. The whistleblower would have been right to blow the whistle even if impeachment did not occur from the report. It's still the right call to raise awareness to possible transgressions. This was obviously not frivolous, or it would not have come this far. In fact very substantial complaints about the president have been left by the wayside because they didn't rise to the level of impeachment. So the whistleblower was obviously right to blow the whistle, given that it will have resulted in the 3rd impeachment of a president (a 4th adoption of articles of impeachment).

So the whistleblower was right at least twice over. Once because the matter had substance worthy of investigation. And twice because Trump's admission of guilt and corroboration testimony demonstrates that the transgression has occurred.

All you're waiting for is to find out what the people you already stated are self-serving liars will say about it in the Senate. And for some reason you hold that opinion over the opinion of the House.
Nope. The truth won't come from the Senate. With regards to Deep Throat, it took the press decades to sleuth it out. I'm hoping - but not betting - the truth will become more clear with further investigations, such as those of the Inspector General and the Special Prosecutor. It must be maddening for you that events - and people's opinions including mine - continue to happen, and do not stop and stand still every time you announce the facts and the truth to us like some all-seeing deity. You have an idiosyncratic ideological vision that is so bizarre to me that I doubt I will ever be able to understand you.
 
Nope. The truth won't come from the Senate. With regards to Deep Throat, it took the press decades to sleuth it out. I'm hoping - but not betting - the truth will become more clear with further investigations, such as those of the Inspector General and the Special Prosecutor.

I honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about. But I'll hazard a guess, at my own peril.

My guess is that you're saying that the "truth" has to do with the motives of the whistleblower. Of course the whistleblower's motives have nothing to do with impeachment. The facts surrounding Trump's case are entirely his. Investigation into the whistleblower shouldn't change the facts of Trump's legal position. The reason I'm hazarding this particular guess about what you mean is that this kind of interpretation is consistent with your usual scope of interest - the seedy manipulative motivations behind someone's actions.

Anyway, if my guess is correct, you're trying to shift the focus off of Trump's legal case and onto a character smear of someone who we have no reason to believe has committed any legal (or otherwise) transgression. And if I'm going to guess at your motives for a moment, I'd guess that's because you can't defend Trump but something in you wants to.

It must be maddening for you that events - and people's opinions including mine - continue to happen, and do not stop and stand still every time you announce the facts and the truth to us like some all-seeing deity.

I mean I don't require that you worship me, but it is accepted. I don't know why you would expect me to be maddened or even have the expectation that people would stop and listen when I announce the facts. People ignore facts constantly, I'm quite used to it. Thanks for your concern though.

You have an idiosyncratic ideological vision that is so bizarre to me that I doubt I will ever be able to understand you.

Can one ever really know an all-seeing diety? It's tough. I think you're misplacing the word "ideological" here. I'm simply stating the facts, facts which you do not care to dispute, and following them to their logical conclusion. That it's not going to be carried out (in the Senate) is well known to me. Is it ideological to want them to do their jobs but realize that they almost certainly won't? Well... I don't think that's the right word. Principled might be a little closer. ;)

Stand up for your principles @Dotini. Are we a nation of laws or a nation of men?
 
I honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about. But I'll hazard a guess, at my own peril.

My guess is that you're saying that the "truth" has to do with the motives of the whistleblower. Of course the whistleblower's motives have nothing to do with impeachment. The facts surrounding Trump's case are entirely his. Investigation into the whistleblower shouldn't change the facts of Trump's legal position. The reason I'm hazarding this particular guess about what you mean is that this kind of interpretation is consistent with your usual scope of interest - the seedy manipulative motivations behind someone's actions.

Anyway, if my guess is correct, you're trying to shift the focus off of Trump's legal case and onto a character smear of someone who we have no reason to believe has committed any legal (or otherwise) transgression. And if I'm going to guess at your motives for a moment, I'd guess that's because you can't defend Trump but something in you wants to.



I mean I don't require that you worship me, but it is accepted. I don't know why you would expect me to be maddened or even have the expectation that people would stop and listen when I announce the facts. People ignore facts constantly, I'm quite used to it. Thanks for your concern though.



Can one ever really know an all-seeing diety? It's tough. I think you're misplacing the word "ideological" here. I'm simply stating the facts, facts which you do not care to dispute, and following them to their logical conclusion. That it's not going to be carried out (in the Senate) is well known to me. Is it ideological to want them to do their jobs but realize that they almost certainly won't? Well... I don't think that's the right word. Principled might be a little closer. ;)

Stand up for your principles @Dotini. Are we a nation of laws or a nation of men?
I think our basic difference is on the term "facts". I get the message that facts are always and only what you say they are, end of story. At this point, conversation breaks down.
 
I think our basic difference is on the term "facts". I get the message that facts are always and only what you say they are, end of story. At this point, conversation breaks down.

The conversation breaks down when your response is "nuh-uh", with no attempt to explain why his "facts" are incorrect or his logic erroneous.

Simply saying "you're wrong" is not a rebuttal. You should be prepared to display your reasoning if asked. And yes, that opens you up to other people analysing your "facts" and logic for flaws. But that's as it should be if you're actually interested in finding the truth.

If you just want to shut conversation down, "nuh-uh" is exactly what you should be doing.

We are a nation of corrupt men.

So it would appear. This seems undesirable.
 
...if you're actually interested in finding the truth.

Hasn't the truth already been found? Or do truth, guilt and the like already exist outside of social constructs like universities, legal systems, trials and forums?

"The very nature of the fact that I say I disagree and you say you don't is a disputed fact," Collins told committee Democrats. "It'll be the first impeachment that is partisan on facts that are not agreed to."
https://news.yahoo.com/washington-pulled-apart-partisan-divide-over-facts-015743807.html
 
Hasn't the truth already been found?

Perhaps it has. The options are that one of the parties to the conversation has it or none of them do.

Or do truth, guilt and the like already exist outside of social constructs like universities, legal systems, trials and forums?

Don't get all postmodern on us and vomit a thesaurus onto the forums again.

"The very nature of the fact that I say I disagree and you say you don't is a disputed fact," Collins told committee Democrats. "It'll be the first impeachment that is partisan on facts that are not agreed to."
https://news.yahoo.com/washington-pulled-apart-partisan-divide-over-facts-015743807.html

It's hard to really disagree on facts that are sufficiently established. One can disagree with the conclusions drawn, but usually not with the facts.

If there's disagreement on the facts then either the facts have been insufficiently established or one side is being disingenuous. I think everyone's pretty much on the same page about what actually happened in Trump's phone call with Zelensky, so that sort of rules out the first part. In fact, I think almost everyone is even on the same page about what Trump intended with that phone call, he wanted to use the tools at his disposal (namely, aid funds and meetings with his august self) to make a foreign power investigate one of his political opponents.

Now as far as interpreting whether that action is something that would warrant impeachment and removal from office is another thing. People can have varying opinions on whether allowing this type of behaviour of all politicians would be damaging to the American political process in general, and whether it's an example of the President attempting to involve foreign powers in American elections. It's pretty clearly bribery, but since that's the negative terminology for bargaining there's even room for discussion there around whether this was a relevant and appropriate way to investigate potential wrongdoing by an American citizen.

Note that in all the above however, it's opinions where there's room for disagreement. Not facts. If you think that there are statements about Trump's actions that are factually incorrect, by all means point them out. But I think what people are really disagreeing over is their interpretation of Trump's factual actions and their potential impact. Likewise, I think the linked article is misusing the word "facts" when it means "opinions" or "interpretations".
 
Regarding historical perspective and partisan politics.

The two previous impeachment proceedings which seem highly relevant here, and which keep coming up, are Nixon and Clinton.

Articles of impeachment adopted against Richard Nixon:

article 1 - obstruction of justice
On June 17, 1972, and prior thereto, agents of the Committee for the Re-election of the President committed unlawful entry of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in Washington, District of Columbia, for the purpose of securing political intelligence. Subsequent thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his close subordinates and agents, in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede, and obstruct the investigation of such illegal entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible; and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities.

article 2 - abuse of power
Using the powers of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, impairing the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposes of these agencies.

article 3 - contempt of congress
In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has failed without lawful cause or excuse to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgment as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by the Constitution in the House of Representatives.
[/quote]

Some republicans voted for these, but mostly it's democrats voting for them. For the most part, the charges here are not that Nixon overtly engaged in criminal acts, but engaged in a criminal cover-up of other bad actors. So the charges here are primarily that he had a disregard for the process of justice. In short, this is three flavors of obstruction of justice.

Articles of impeachment adopted against Bill Clinton:

article 1 - perjury
Article I charged that Clinton lied to the grand jury concerning:
  1. the nature and details of his relationship with Lewinsky
  2. prior false statements he made in the Jones deposition
  3. prior false statements he allowed his lawyer to make characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
  4. his attempts to tamper with witnesses
article 2 - obstruction of justice
Article II charged Clinton with attempting to obstruct justice in the Jones case by:

  1. encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
  2. encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
  3. concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
  4. attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
  5. permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
  6. attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Currie
  7. making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses.

Some democrats voted for these, but it was overwhelmingly republicans that voted for these.

Interesting to me is that the facts surrounding these cases, and surrounding Trump's case, are basically not in dispute. Everyone knows Nixon engaged in cover-up. Everyone knows Clinton lied under oath in order to get away with sexual harassment. Everyone knows Trump bribed Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden.

I read an article just the other day by someone who worked on all 3 cases, and who characterized Clinton's impeachment as basically "about sex", at which point I basically stopped reading. It floors me that democrats still think Clinton's impeachment did not rise to what she called "a threat to national security" because it was fundamentally "about sex". The facts are not in dispute, he lied under oath in order to get away with a crime. This demonstrates a disregard for the US legal process, and is very clearly obstruction of justice. He was placing his own personal interests above the interests of the nation

Likewise, Nixon apologists (yes they exist today) characterize Nixon as basically falling on his sword out of loyalty to his subordinates. He, of course, would not have condoned their actions, but they were his men and he was going to protect them even if it meant he was taken down. The facts are not in dispute, but somehow the motives are characterized as being pure. Who could possibly argue with loyalty?

More severe than Clinton obstructing justice and perjuring himself to get away with a crime, and more severe than Nixon's obstruction justice to help others get away with a crime, is Trump obstructing justice in order to try to get away with a crime. Nixon's transgression was basically the second half of Trump's (the attempt at cover-up). Although I have to say that Nixon's version of cover-up was much less dangerous than Trump's. Burying evidence is not as bad as threatening and harassing the people that would bring it forward. Trump's obstruction of justice is also more severe than Clinton's, but it's also more similar to Clinton's. Clinton was attempting to tamper with one witness (Lewinsky), whereas Trump was attempting a wholesale tampering of many many witnesses and others who might bring information forward. Since Clinton's scope was smaller, he was more successful.

In order to compare Trump's abuse of power charge (for bribery) against the other two, we'd need to compare it against Clinton's perjury, and Nixon's break-in. Now, as far as I know, Nixon was never actually tied to the break-in itself. We'd have to suppose he was to make a direct comparison, and since that evidence seems to not exist, at this point I'll excuse Nixon from the comparison. Clinton's perjury was entirely a self-serving move which threw Jones under the bus. Trump's bribery was entirely a self-serving move which threw the nations of Ukraine and the US under the bus. Trump comes out Trump on that one.

So in terms of severity of obstruction of justice, I rank them this way:

Trump > Nixon > Clinton

And in terms of abuse of power, I rank them this way:

Trump > Clinton

Now, I know technically Nixon has his own abuse of power charge, but really it's a re-framing of his obstruction of justice charge, which is why I'm dropping it for this comparison.

Democrats still today want to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to impeachment. Clinton's was apparently, despite clear and overwhelming evidence, frivolous and a vendetta by the republicans. But with Trump suddenly they have principles. Similarly, Republicans were all about the letter of the law when it came to Clinton, and viewing the clear and present danger of someone who was willing to forsake the law for personal gain. And yet with Trump they think it's frivolous and silly, despite clear and overwhelming evidence.

I find it fascinating the none of the facts are in dispute here. It's clear that all 3 deserved to be impeached and removed from office. It's also clear that party-line cronies attempted to support all 3. In Nixon's case, public opinion turned on principle, and the cronies bowed out, so he resigned. In the latter two, public support seems to be strong despite all of the evidence, so the cronies hang on and defend.

Democrats got it right with Nixon. Republicans got it right with Clinton. Democrats have it right with Trump.
 
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There is one overarching difference between the current impeachment and the previous two (I was not around for the first impeachment). In the case of Nixon and Clinton, serious calls for impeachment began only after the wrongdoing came to light. In the case of Trump, the whole Ukraine thing began approximately six months ago, while the Democrats have been calling for his impeachment for three years.
 
There is one overarching difference between the current impeachment and the previous two (I was not around for the first impeachment). In the case of Nixon and Clinton, serious calls for impeachment began only after the wrongdoing came to light. In the case of Trump, the whole Ukraine thing began approximately six months ago, while the Democrats have been calling for his impeachment for three years.

I don't know if that's a meaningful distinction. The origins of Clinton's impeachment were in the Whitewater investigation which Ken Starr joined as Independent Counsel in 1994. Failing to find anything related to Whitewater to convict Clinton on, Starr ended up 4 years later with the Lewinsky affair.
 
It is rare to see Republicans get this pissed off.



No, not rare at all. They are pissed off at immigration, socialism, Mueller, Kavanaugh hearing, climate change etc. basically everything that sets off Trump.

That said, how disrespectfull can you be to protest at an unrelated event about recognising genocide in armenia.:banghead: There were decendants of genocide survivors in that room!
 
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