The Trump Impeachment Thread

[Groundfish]

No it's not. American's love to protest, Republicans, Democrats, and everyone else. From down here in upside-down land, it seems like half the country is in a constant hissy fit about whatever the latest moral panic is.

When you actually live here, things are different. Unless you are in Berkeley. Or Berzerkley as most rational people call it.
I’d say maybe you may know as much about real America as you get from the news.
People are going to jail over all the corrupt and false accusations and unlawful granting of warrants to do a witch hunt.
As far as polls lol. Polls are a joke.
Like I said before wait a few weeks and watch what happens...

 

[Danoff]

When you actually live here, things are different. Unless you are in Berkeley. Or Berzerkley as most rational people call it.
I’d say maybe you may know as much about real America as you get from the news.
People are going to jail over all the corrupt and false accusations and unlawful granting of warrants to do a witch hunt.
As far as polls lol. Polls are a joke.
Like I said before wait a few weeks and watch what happens...

To sum up...

"Nuh uh"

and

"witch hunt"


You can see how this doesn't actually change minds right?

 

[Groundfish]

To sum up...

"Nuh uh"

and

"witch hunt"


You can see how this doesn't actually change minds right?

I am not here trying to change people’s minds about anything.
I am simply calling it as it is and looking to have stimulating discussion.
Trying to forcefully dictate what people think is not my m o.
Imo people end up espousing many strange things when they come strictly from academic positions with academic ‘thought experiments’
and fail to come from reality.

 

[Danoff]

I am not here trying to change people’s minds about anything.
I am simply calling it as it is and looking to have stimulating discussion.
Trying to forcefully dictate what people think is not my m o.
Imo people end up espousing many strange things when they come strictly from academic positions with academic ‘thought experiments’
and fail to come from reality.

So you calling it what it is and trying to have a stimulating discussion is saying "nuh uh" and "witch hunt". You might want to develop your conversational technique a little.

 

[Joey D]

As far as polls lol. Polls are a joke.

You're not a lawyer, but you are a statistician? Great. Then I assume you understand the science that goes into extrapolating data from polls then. While not 100% accurate, it doesn't take much of a leap to think that around half the country supports impeachment. Even if you draw a line along political affiliations, you'd probably get around a 50/50 split on for and against.

I am simply calling it as it is and looking to have stimulating discussion.

Are you? Because any time anyone brings up anything that you don't agree with it's propaganda. Most people here are giving you well-reasoned counterpoints backed up with evidence and you're just dismissing them as @Danoff points out.

 

[Groundfish]

So you calling it what it is and trying to have a stimulating discussion is saying "nuh uh" and "witch hunt". You might want to develop your conversational technique a little.

Wait a minute.
I explained before. Not everyone chooses to believe in the same premises as everyone else.
Not everyone has a desire to express themselves as the sole purveyor of what is a good premise. I don’t.
I do think it’s fair to point out that no one has dominion over logic.
Logic can only be applied. I think very differently than you do.
Our premises on matters differ, just as they do in all of modern academia govt society and reality in general.
These are philosophical matters here. I understand the philosophical underpinnings and support my positions.
There’s nothing wrong with that.
Play the ball please.

 

[Danoff]

Wait a minute.
I explained before. Not everyone chooses to believe in the same premises as everyone else.
Not everyone has a desire to express themselves as the sole purveyor of what is a good premise. I don’t.
I do think it’s fair to point out that no one has dominion over logic.
Logic can only be applied. I think very differently than you do.
Our premises on matters differ, just as they do in all of modern academia govt society and reality in general.
These are philosophical matters here. I understand the philosophical underpinnings and support my positions.
There’s nothing wrong with that.
Play the ball please.

Somehow this excuses "nuh uh" and "witch hunt" as a "stimulating discussion". Look, if you don't want to have a conversation, just don't post. If you do want to have a conversation, post something substantive. This bit where you drop in "witch hunt" and "I know you are but what am I" is really not contributing to anything meaningful.

 

[Groundfish]

Somehow this excuses "nuh uh" and "witch hunt" as a "stimulating discussion". Look, if you don't want to have a conversation, just don't post. If you do want to have a conversation, post something substantive. This bit where you drop in "witch hunt" and "I know you are but what am I" is really not contributing to anything meaningful.

Nice straw man. Well done.
Maybe it is YOU who should not post if you believe you are the sole purveyor of logic and truth on an opinion sub forum.
Differing premises and ideologies should be just that, and it’s enjoyable to discuss these differing opinions when it’s respectful.

 

[Danoff]

Nice straw man. Well done.
Maybe it is YOU who should not post if you believe you are the sole purveyor of logic and truth on an opinion sub forum.
Differing premises and ideologies should be just that, and it’s enjoyable to discuss these differing opinions when it’s respectful.

What on Earth? Look this is your post:

"When you actually live here, things are different. "
"People are going to jail over all the corrupt and false accusations and unlawful granting of warrants to do a witch hunt."
"As far as polls lol. Polls are a joke."

I've bolded your actual "argument". And somehow this makes me holier than thou? Or this is "differing premises"? There's no meat here. It's a nothingburger of a post. You posted the intellectual equivalent of "I'm rubber and you're glue".

 

[Groundfish]

@Danoff
Watch the videos of Lindsey Graham above.
People are going to jail over this witch hunt. FISA warrant process was corrupt, the whole thing was corrupt.
And just give me a break. Please. I am not going to do it but I could do a hundred quotes on here where you have claimed a premise is a truth, when in fact it’s just a belief. Far be it for me to get offended by hypocritical behavior from anonymous folks online so I don’t choose to take action on that.
In order to maintain intellectual integrity I must call premises I do not personally hold into questions because the arguments that have been applied to them via deductive reasoning have often been valid.
I am not going to waste my time all day in he said she said like some miller lite beer commercial tastes great less filling though because there’s no value in that.

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff
Watch the videos of Lindsey Graham above.
People are going to jail over this witch hunt. FISA warrant process was corrupt, the whole thing was corrupt.
And just give me a break. Please. I am not going to do it but I could do a hundred quotes on here where you have claimed a premise is a truth, when in fact it’s just a belief. Far be it for me to get offended by hypocritical behavior from anonymous folks online so I don’t choose to take action on that.
In order to maintain intellectual integrity I must call premises I do not personally hold into questions because the arguments that have been applied to them via deductive reasoning have often been valid.
I am not going to waste my time all day in he said she said like some miller lite beer commercial tastes great less filling though because there’s no value in that.

 

[huskeR32]

People are going to jail over this witch hunt.

Who? Do you mean the people who plead guilty?

 

[Danoff]

Who? Do you mean the people who plead guilty?

Excellent point, and absolutely worthy of noting. However, and I don't mean to pick on you here...

@Groundfish posted a mostly non-sequitur and entirely non-substantive response to the notion that republicans do not have "hissy fits" (they've been hissy fit champions for like 12 years running at least). And he's been systematically trying to divert all attention away from his nonsensical response by changing the subject to "witch hunts", me, the news, and even logic. He has absolutely refused to engage in the slightest on the actual topic, which is that Republicans throw hissy fits constantly.

By engaging in the witch hunt, you give him the out he's looking for. I suppose you figured I had covered it and were moving on, and that's fair. The most effective way to deal with this kind of argument tactic (which is Trump's), at least in my experience, is to keep the spotlight on the topic at hand, and ignore all attempts to distract to other things. I do get that it can get boring though.

edit:

Back at @Groundfish for a moment. This is the same nonsense you do with impeachment from one end to the other. I had a string of posts, like I dunno, must have been 6 of them where I said "that's not a defense". The point, and you seem to have no taken it to heart, was that you're constantly deflecting from the actual topic. It's intellectually dishonest. Depending on the nature of the deflection it may be non-sequitur, appeal to hypocrisy (whataboutism), or other logical fallacies. None of it helps bolster your point.

You can't even take the smallest argument, like Republicans having hissy fits, and actually argue the topic. I don't know if it's intentional, or it's just a lack of intellectual discipline, but it's tiresome.

 

[Sander 001]

 

[Scaff]

@Danoff
Watch the videos of Lindsey Graham above.
People are going to jail over this witch hunt. FISA warrant process was corrupt, the whole thing was corrupt.
And just give me a break. Please. I am not going to do it but I could do a hundred quotes on here where you have claimed a premise is a truth, when in fact it’s just a belief. Far be it for me to get offended by hypocritical behavior from anonymous folks online so I don’t choose to take action on that.
In order to maintain intellectual integrity I must call premises I do not personally hold into questions because the arguments that have been applied to them via deductive reasoning have often been valid.
I am not going to waste my time all day in he said she said like some miller lite beer commercial tastes great less filling though because there’s no value in that.

You mean like Clinton was going to jail?

 

[Groundfish]

@Scaff
Well played.

 

[huskeR32]

@Groundfish posted a mostly non-sequitur and entirely non-substantive response to the notion that republicans do not have "hissy fits" (they've been hissy fit champions for like 12 years running at least). And he's been systematically trying to divert all attention away from his nonsensical response by changing the subject to "witch hunts", me, the news, and even logic. He has absolutely refused to engage in the slightest on the actual topic, which is that Republicans throw hissy fits constantly.

By engaging in the witch hunt, you give him the out he's looking for. I suppose you figured I had covered it and were moving on, and that's fair. The most effective way to deal with this kind of argument tactic (which is Trump's), at least in my experience, is to keep the spotlight on the topic at hand, and ignore all attempts to distract to other things. I do get that it can get boring though.

Sorry man, definitely didn't mean to help him dodge you, I was just honestly baffled by the notion that people pleading guilty to crimes is somehow proof that crimes aren't happening, and I couldn't help but ask.

Of course, he just dodged me as well... Which begs the question, @Groundfish, why are you even here? If you don't have the ability to provide even one coherent response to anybody, what's the point?

 

[Groundfish]

f course, he just dodged me as well... Which begs the question, @Groundfish, why are you even here? If

I’m not going to respond to nonsense that’s for sure.
I’m not sure how to respond to obviously loaded questions?

 

[Northstar]

I’m not going to respond to nonsense that’s for sure.

Well yeah, it would be weird if you responded to your own posts.

 

[Groundfish]

There’s an ideology that is prevalent here among many that is based on certain premises.
The arguments made from those premises are not inconsistent.
The premise about human rights is a great example.

 

[Danoff]

There’s an ideology that is prevalent here among many that is based on certain premises.
The arguments made from those premises are not inconsistent.
The premise about human rights is a great example.

Can you relate this to impeachment somehow?

He asks, expecting to be ignored

 

[TenEightyOne]

There’s an ideology that is prevalent here among many that is based on certain premises.
The arguments made from those premises are not inconsistent.
The premise about human rights is a great example.

Wrong thread, but you'll have fun in the correct one.

 

[Groundfish]

Look I felt the need to respond. I should explain that imo as I said above you will have to watch for a couple weeks what will happen.
Investigations are ongoing into the corruption that has been ongoing in what is commonly now called the witch hunt.
Now, some of you have called me a dodger, but please understand I have a career and simply don’t have time to break every post down and respond within less than a minute. I’m sorry I can’t do that. Further, in response directly to you @Danoff...You are not the sole person here who defines reality for the rest. Please.

 

[Imari]

When you actually live here, things are different. Unless you are in Berkeley. Or Berzerkley as most rational people call it.
I’d say maybe you may know as much about real America as you get from the news.

Of course, I'm stuck here in upside-down land. I do the best with what I've got. Which is media, discussion forums, and the few live-in-captivity Americans that we keep down here.

Like I said before wait a few weeks and watch what happens...

I watch with anticipation. I was merely pointing out that Republicans getting pissed off wasn't rare, mostly because Americans seem perpetually pissed off. Look at your reply, you seem at least mildly miffed over this witch hunt and the fake polls, none of which I mentioned or even alluded to.

 

[Joey D]

Well yeah, it would be weird if you responded to your own posts.

Damn, are you a democratic socialist because I'm feeling the Bern!?!

There’s an ideology that is prevalent here among many that is based on certain premises.
The arguments made from those premises are not inconsistent.
The premise about human rights is a great example.

So in essence libertarian bad, conservative good? That's a rather strange way to look at things. If you truly embrace the right then you should embrace libertarianism. In its simplest form, it basically says leave me alone and let me live my life while keeping what's mine, well mine.

ow, some of you have called me a dodger, but please understand I have a career and simply don’t have time to break every post down and respond within less than a minute. I’m sorry I can’t do that. Further, in response directly to you

When you're engaged in a discussion and clearly online, you're dodging questions if you purposely ignore them. I get it, sometimes things get missed, but some of the questions you were directly asked no less than six times over the course of several days, all with multiple replies by you afterward. And yes, I get you have a career, most of, if not all of us do. No one expects you to answer the second something is posted, but if you have the time to pop in numerous times throughout the day and offer whatever it is you're offering, then I think it stands to reason you have the time to construct a well-reasoned response to questions being asked of you. It's also OK to say I don't know, no one is an expert on everything and sometimes you really don't know.

mostly because Americans seem perpetually pissed off

Well if you're Donald Trump or R Kelly, you're probably pissed on.

 

[TexRex]

In the case of Trump, the whole Ukraine thing began approximately six months ago, while the Democrats have been calling for his impeachment for three years.

Heh...good stuff. When you so desperately want to defend Trump but can't because you realize he's done the things of which he's accused and you see how others end up looking when attempting to deflect with obscurant notions and beer commercials, all that's really left is to point the finger at those attempting to hold him accountable.

And how nice it was of Trump to validate those calls for impeachment by committing impeachable offenses. When under such scrutiny, I'd expect someone to make a concerted effort to...you know...not be corrupt. That's clearly not how he rolls.

I don't know if that's a meaningful distinction. The origins of Clinton's impeachment were in the Whitewater investigation which Ken Starr joined as Independent Counsel in 1994. Failing to find anything related to Whitewater to convict Clinton on, Starr ended up 4 years later with the Lewinsky affair.

Pfft. Details.

You're not a lawyer, but you are a statistician? Great. Then I assume you understand the science that goes into extrapolating data from polls then. While not 100% accurate, it doesn't take much of a leap to think that around half the country supports impeachment. Even if you draw a line along political affiliations, you'd probably get around a 50/50 split on for and against.

For what it's worth, I take opinion polls with a grain of salt. This includes the one that says a majority of Americans support impeachment...and I'm a part of that supposed majority. It has nothing to do with attributing the opinions of the few to the many, rather there are a number of things at play that affect the accuracy, such as response and nonresponse biases, and that's without even considering manipulation during the poll's implementation. I also take issue with the way results are utilized; they're basically fodder for a group's bandwagon fallacy.

 

[Keef]

@Dotini Today, the Judiciary Committee released its report outlining the actual crimes committed. Do those crimes describe "abuse of power" and "obstruction of congress" well enough for you?

 

[Biggles]

Investigations are ongoing into the corruption that has been ongoing in what is commonly now called the witch hunt.

Really? That's Trump's line: "a lot of people are saying". It's weird that an independent, free-thinking person like yourself would parrot that line. It's not a "witch hunt' - it may be a politically motivated investigation, we're used to those. You know, like the BS birth certificate investigation, or the Benghazi investigation, or the "widespread voter fraud" investigation. We've been told for a long time by Fox News (& various individuals on GTPlanet) that Comey, Brennan, Clapper & McCabe are going to be indicted & will "throw each other under the bus" in the process. We've been told that Hillary Clinton would be "locked up".Instead, we've seen a parade of Trump's close associates being indicted & convicted of crimes. We've seen Trump's university sued & shut down, his charitable foundation censured & shut down.

I don't doubt that there are those in FBI & CIA, the State Department & other branches of government who loathe Donald Trump - certainly after everything that has gone down ... I also imagine there are others who like & support Trump. That would seem to reflect the reality of the situation in the United States in general. The thing about Trump is that it's not about differences in opinion about government policy - which in Trump's case seems unusually erratic & confused - it's that Trump makes everything personal. He insults everybody & anybody who holds an opinion in opposition to him, no matter how trivial the subject. Sooner or later all that bad karma is going to catch up with Trump (bigly).

 

[Groundfish]

o in essence libertarian bad, conservative good? That's a rather strange way to look at things. If you truly embrace the right then you should embrace libertarianism. In its simplest form, it basically says leave me alone and let me live my life while keeping what's mine, well mine.

There’s a reason we need a govt. It’s almost a necessary evil. My understanding of libertarians is from reading their platform. I mean abolishing a lot of essential services like a fire department for starters is just a non starter. Allowing complete and total free market capitalism? I mean to me it’s an ideology with a fantastic name, but that’s about it. I mean we are way off topic, but
Imo in the USA we have a fantastic Constitution, there’s no need to switch ideologies to one that imo wants anarchy and trusts people will do the right thing.
Hey do what you want as long as you don’t infringe on others rights is no basis for a system of govt.
People will always have disputes and fight over a finite amount of resources. Looking at the platform, I just can’t support it.
I also am not 100 percent behind the right, it’s not as if it’s not just as loaded with corruption as the left.
One reason I have the position I do is because from the beginning pretty much no one wanted Donald Trump involved in govt. Maybe it’s weakness on my part and idealism, but I do dream of an outsider being able to return the USA to a less corrupt govt and further uphold the principles of the Constitution.
So I am hoping that (idealism) maybe this situation will ferret out some corruption.
But I will wait and see. My position is they’ve been trying to get him out from day one and haven’t been able to yet, so maybe he can successfully disrupt the old boy network in Washington.

eally? That's Trump's line: "a lot of people are saying". It's weird that an independent, free-thinking person like yourself would parrot that line. It's not a "witch hunt' - it may be a politically motivated investigation, we're used to those

Yeah I’m not parroting that. I’ve just seen a large number of major news networks caught lying, the whole system is fraught with lies and a lot of them dislike the President. I’d love it if he’s vindicated by the Senate ferreting out corrupt dishonest people as a result of this impeachment.
I support the constitution above all else.
Like I said I’m probably too idealistic.

 

[Biggles]

I also am not 100 percent behind the right, it’s not as if it’s not just as loaded with corruption as the left.
One reason I have the position I do is because from the beginning pretty much no one wanted Donald Trump involved in govt. Maybe it’s weakness on my part and idealism, but I do dream of an outsider being able to return the USA to a less corrupt govt and further uphold the principles of the Constitution.

Yeah - there's a lot of lying & corruption in political life. It's possible an outsider would be able to return the USA to a less corrupt govt. HOWEVER the chances that that person would be Donald Trump, whose trademark characteristic even before entering politics has been lying & corruption? Not likely. And Trump has delivered on the lying & corruption on a level exceeding anybody's expectations. You'd have to be truly myopic ... or intensely partisan, not to see this.

Yeah I’m not parroting that. I’ve just seen a large number of major news networks caught lying, the whole system is fraught with lies and a lot of them dislike the President. I’d love it if he’s vindicated by the Senate ferreting out corrupt dishonest people as a result of this impeachment.
I support the constitution above all else.
Like I said I’m probably too idealistic.

LOL. People dislike President Trump because, glaringly obviously, he's a terrible person. "Vindication" by the Senate? You mean you're rooting for Republican corruption to win out over Democratic corruption. Why?