The Trump Impeachment Thread

[Danoff]

I think it’s because of my view of those doing it and what I said before about propoganda, but also imo it may just be that they know it will die in the Senate and knew that from the get go.
In that case it would be a waste of time and money.

Nope.

In that case the House did their job and the Senate did not. So far the Senate has already announced that they will not do theirs. Impeachment is a permanent mark on a Presidency. It means that a large fraction of congress thinks that the presidency is guilty of corruption. If the Senate refuses to carry out their oaths of office, and they have effectively said that they won't, then it is also a permanent mark on this Senate.

Winning isn't everything. Sometimes it's enough to simply do the right thing.

 

[Lain]

I bought 62.5 lbs of popcorn to last me the entirety of 2020, but thanks to this thread, I might run out before we even get to Christmas of this year.

 

[Keef]

I bought 62.5 lbs of popcorn to last me the entirety of 2020, but thanks to this thread, I might run out before we even get to Christmas of this year.

That's a lot of miles!

 

[Groundfish]

It's not a national emergency.

The numbers are dropping and have been since 2007
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

They commit less crime than native-born Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#United_States

They pay taxes and don't use welfare etc. to such a degree they are a net contributor to the system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econo...ts_in_the_United_States#Cost-benefit_analysis

They don't vote (despite what Trump claims)
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/05/599868312/fact-check-trump-repeats-voter-fraud-claim-about-california

Well, this will get your goat a bit and I probably shouldn’t bring it up. One word. Schools. Schools schools schools. And...
To me it’s quite funny to hear someone say them (illegal immigrants). Its funny that it offends me to hear that when I am pretty sure the person using ‘them’ (the term ) is far way. It’s dehumanizing for sure, but to me a legal fact and daily reality.
Anyways you guys really have no idea how entertwined my life is very directly daily with the issue, and I won’t go into detail, because it would be a no win maneuver.
But schools parking homes occupied by more than 1-2 families plus increased rent...It’s driving folks away from my state.
Certain parts of CA have undergone complete cultural shift in the last 25 years. I wish I could be more frank with you as I respect your posting style, but my situation is what it is.
Now, lumping ‘them’ together, these people I know and love (ok I’ll say it Mexican folks) is a hard thing to do, In fact hearing someone else do it even kinda almost offends me a bit, particularly when I know what I live daily, I know what’s happened because of it, I’ve lived it out.
But, it’s just not the sort of thing to place on this website. (Specifics)
It’s hard to say in so many words what I want to say and I just cannot, so I will leave it as things have changed greatly in certain parts of CA because of that immigration issue.
I am in a strange position in between it all. Seeing my friends move away to raise their children and buy better homes, it’s very weird.
I love most of the immigrants I know that includes places like Japan and Turkey and Mexico and Argentina and Brazil and Germany and France and England, and their actions are mostly just to work and not cause trouble etc.
There’s just a tipping point where there’s simply too many people in an area with limited resources, let’s just say.
It has broad effects on a community over ten or more years that are not commonly talked about.
So, forgive me if I don’t get into a statistical deal here.
I’ve lived from marriage to murder via immigrants. I really don’t need to see statistics on what I have lived, I guess.
I mean my stance is what it is. The absolute wrong worst thing to do is lump folks into a group like that, but it is what it is.
I mean anyone would have to admit after living as long as we have that seeing the difference between 2 worlds, pre growth and post growth is a very hard thing to deal with. I’ve no idea whether any of this post makes sense or if it even belongs here, but I kinda had to say it.
I am not someone who has studied this issue. I’ve lived it personally, so again forgive me for kinda glancing at a bunch of stats
put up by someone far away and going well, I like him, and I’d guess he has not lived it, if I am wrong I apologize now.
I’ve never seen you post anything poor since I’ve been on this site.
I will let others argue specific statistics and numbers, but I cannot. I live the reality of the policies daily and have for a looong. Time now.

@Eunos_Cosmo
I like that we can find agreement that we both support the constitution, we just disagree as to who represents the greatest danger to it!

 

[Chrunch Houston]

From Donald to Nancy, with prayers and love.

 

[eran0004]

From Donald to Nancy, with prayers and love.

I don’t see the point of writing that letter, certainly not in such an upset mood. It only makes him seem guilty.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

From Donald to Nancy, with prayers and love.

I just read the letter I posted.
His defence of himself is dead on. Of course some of it is just Trump being Trump. I know how you lefties hate that.

I voted for Clinton. I became a Republican during his impeachment. It wasn't about sex. But that was the constant lie of the Democrats.

Do not quote me unless you have read the entire letter.

 

[Groundfish]

I just read the letter I posted.
His defence of himself is dead on. Of course some of it is just Trump being Trump. I know how you lefties hate that.

I voted for Clinton. I became a Republican during his impeachment. It wasn't about sex. But that was the constant lie of the Democrats.

Do not quote me unless you have read the entire letter.

My chips are down that the dang guy is tellin it like it is.
If it turns out I am wrong, I wil be sad and admit America has died.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

My chips are down that the dang guy is tellin it like it is.
If it turns out I am wrong, I wil be sad and admit America has died.

Pay no attention to the pack of wild dogs here. Post facts, and let them speak for themselves.

 

[Scaff]

Well, this will get your goat a bit and I probably shouldn’t bring it up. One word. Schools. Schools schools schools. And...
To me it’s quite funny to hear someone say them (illegal immigrants). Its funny that it offends me to hear that when I am pretty sure the person using ‘them’ (the term ) is far way. It’s dehumanizing for sure, but to me a legal fact and daily reality.
Anyways you guys really have no idea how entertwined my life is very directly daily with the issue, and I won’t go into detail, because it would be a no win maneuver.
But schools parking homes occupied by more than 1-2 families plus increased rent...It’s driving folks away from my state.
Certain parts of CA have undergone complete cultural shift in the last 25 years. I wish I could be more frank with you as I respect your posting style, but my situation is what it is.
Now, lumping ‘them’ together, these people I know and love (ok I’ll say it Mexican folks) is a hard thing to do, In fact hearing someone else do it even kinda almost offends me a bit, particularly when I know what I live daily, I know what’s happened because of it, I’ve lived it out.
But, it’s just not the sort of thing to place on this website. (Specifics)
It’s hard to say in so many words what I want to say and I just cannot, so I will leave it as things have changed greatly in certain parts of CA because of that immigration issue.
I am in a strange position in between it all. Seeing my friends move away to raise their children and buy better homes, it’s very weird.
I love most of the immigrants I know that includes places like Japan and Turkey and Mexico and Argentina and Brazil and Germany and France and England, and their actions are mostly just to work and not cause trouble etc.
There’s just a tipping point where there’s simply too many people in an area with limited resources, let’s just say.
It has broad effects on a community over ten or more years that are not commonly talked about.
So, forgive me if I don’t get into a statistical deal here.
I’ve lived from marriage to murder via immigrants. I really don’t need to see statistics on what I have lived, I guess.
I mean my stance is what it is. The absolute wrong worst thing to do is lump folks into a group like that, but it is what it is.
I mean anyone would have to admit after living as long as we have that seeing the difference between 2 worlds, pre growth and post growth is a very hard thing to deal with. I’ve no idea whether any of this post makes sense or if it even belongs here, but I kinda had to say it.
I am not someone who has studied this issue. I’ve lived it personally, so again forgive me for kinda glancing at a bunch of stats
put up by someone far away and going well, I like him, and I’d guess he has not lived it, if I am wrong I apologize now.
I’ve never seen you post anything poor since I’ve been on this site.
I will let others argue specific statistics and numbers, but I cannot. I live the reality of the policies daily and have for a looong. Time now.

@Eunos_Cosmo
I like that we can find agreement that we both support the constitution, we just disagree as to who represents the greatest danger to it!

I take it you checked the immigration status of every single one of these people you interacted with?

No, if course you didn't.

Hate to break it to you, but you've successfully been conditioned to equate Mexican looking with illegal with bad.

The numbers do not lie, illegal immigration has been dropping for over a decade, immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are less likely to commit criminal acts, are not a net burden on the system and voter fraud is a myth.

 

[Groundfish]

@Scaff
You’ve no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Scaff]

Pay no attention to the pack of wild dogs here.

Play the ball, not the people. Digs and insults are covered quite clearly in the AUP.

Post facts, and let them speak for themselves.

That letter plays fast and loose with the very concept of facts, certainly in regard to the ommision of a good number of them. All of which have been covered in this thread multiple times.

Lets start with just one observation, Trump's legal witness who said that no indictable crime had been committed, so impeachment was invalid. Its odd he makes this argument, given that he directly contradicts himself, given that he said the exact opposite when in the same position during Clinton's impeachment.

https://www.businessinsider.com/rep...ey-contradicted-impeachment-testimony-2019-12

Just one example of an inconvenient fact.

@Scaff
You’ve no idea what you are talking about.

Then you will have no problem proving me wrong, however stick to facts, not unproven anecdotes.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

That letter plays fast and loose with the very concept of facts, certainly in regard to the ommision of a good number of them. All of which have been covered in this thread multiple times.

What in that letter is false? There are facts, and Trump's opinions. I'm sure you know the difference. What facts are wrong?

 

[Scaff]

What in that letter is false? There are facts, and Trump's opinions. I'm sure you know the difference. What facts are wrong?

See my edit above for one example.

You can then add in the omission of fact, that the three other expert witnesses all agreed that the standard for impeachment had been met.

 

[McLaren]

From Donald to Nancy, with prayers and love.

It’s clear he’s speaking from a highly personal approach.

However, with as much passion as he put into a 6 page letter to one person, it’s a shame he can’t funnel that into an idea/speech most of America could actually get behind and isn’t divisive.

 

[TheGeologist]

It’s clear he’s speaking from a highly personal approach.

However, with as much passion as he put into a 6 page letter to one person, it’s a shame he can’t funnel that into an idea/speech most of America could actually get behind and isn’t divisive.

I seriously doubt he actually wrote this

 

[Imari]

Pay no attention to the pack of wild dogs here. Post facts, and let them speak for themselves.

A letter from the accused saying he didn't do it isn't exactly the sort of evidence that acquittals are made of. Primary sources for the defences that he's claiming would seem to be more reasonable. I mean, isn't that why we have trials and evidence, so that we don't have to take the word of the accused?

 

[ryzno]

And it begins.

Should be live right now.

 

[Joey D]

I seriously doubt he actually wrote this

Most letters by people in power (politicians, CEOs, etc.) aren't actually written by them. They dictate it, or at least a rough outline of it, and someone else writes it while polishing it to make it seem professional. Hell, even the CEO of where I work doesn't write his own Xmas message to the staff, his administrative assistant does.

And it begins.

How dare they make Congress work in the week before Xmas! Don't they know these people have families, vacation homes, and extravagant parties thrown by faithful lobbyists they need to attend! /s

Really though, I'm shocked that they're bothering to work at all in the month of December. It seems like if there's one thing the US government is really good at, it's not working.

 

[Groundfish]

Hate to break it to you, but you've successfully been conditioned to equate Mexican looking with illegal with bad

Apparently you failed to read even one word of my previous post.
You know nothing about it.
So now you call me a liar?
Nice very nice. Par for the course.
I will repeat, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH REGARD TO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE WHERE I LIVE.
YOU LACK THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THIS MATTER THAT I LIVE EVERY DAY
YOU ALSO LACK THE ABILITY TO COMPREHEND WHAT I WROTE APPARENTLY
Jesus Christ.

 

[Joey D]

Apparently you failed to read even one word of my previous post.
You know nothing about it.
So now you call me a liar?
Nice very nice. Par for the course.
I will repeat, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH REGARD TO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE WHERE I LIVE.
YOU LACK THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THIS MATTER THAT I LIVE EVERY DAY
YOU ALSO LACK THE ABILITY TO COMPREHEND WHAT I WROTE APPARENTLY
Jesus Christ.

Perhaps instead of flying off the handle, you could provide some more context? All you pretty much said was, I know what I know but I'm not going to explain it but it's true because I experience it. That literally says nothing.

But going back and reading your post, it does come across as "Mexicans = Bad"

 

[Touring Mars]

Apparently you failed to read even one word of my previous post.
You know nothing about it.
So now you call me a liar?
Nice very nice. Par for the course.
I will repeat, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH REGARD TO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE WHERE I LIVE.
YOU LACK THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THIS MATTER THAT I LIVE EVERY DAY
YOU ALSO LACK THE ABILITY TO COMPREHEND WHAT I WROTE APPARENTLY
Jesus Christ.

And with that can we please move back to the subject of the thread. Please feel free to elaborate on the issues you raise in your post in more relevant threads, but for now let's keep this thread on topic - especially at this particular moment.

-

As for the impeachment process, I have to admit, I hae ma doubts as they say here in Scotland. I don't doubt for a moment the main thrust of the arguments against Trump's conduct - or indeed the wisdom of it... but unfortunately the whole process does look extraordinarily partisan...

I've been trying to understand the argument against impeachment and it boils down to this: that the President did indeed request an investigation on the Bidens on the suspicion that they were involved in the corruption that the new Ukrainian president was supposedly in favour of challenging. Trump decided that withholding foreign aid prior to an investigation into corruption involving Joe Biden (and thus presumably involving US public funds) was in the interests of the US - he probably also figured that this was a legitimate way of doing something illegitimate (killing two birds with one stone) i.e. to help kill Joe Biden's political career in the process of establishing the US-Ukraine relationship on a new footing. It's the bit about Biden's political career that is hard to prove (though it is somewhat obvious), and the question is how legitimate was the other motivation (about addressing corruption in Ukraine)?

The fact is, though, that Trump will not be impeached and the partisan nature of the investigation and the impeachment process/votes will likely only serve to galvanise Trump's core message, which is that the Democrats are just trying to get rid of him through any means possible, barring an election.

That said, there is a lot of reasons why this whole affair makes Trump and his style of government look really bad, and it is a pity that not more Republicans have been openly critical of his highly unorthodox (and some may even say chaotic) methods. But, by the same token, the Democrats are not painting themselves in a great light by unanimously backing impeachment, seemingly irrespective of the reasoning behind it.

 

[Danoff]

From Donald to Nancy, with prayers and love.

I counted 3 paragraphs of actual defense. The rest of it is just distraction (@Groundfish's favorite debate tactic). The 3 paragraphs have been lampooned many times over in this thread as weak, or in some cases evidence that Trump is actually guilty of it.

Mostly Republicans are aware that he is guilty, and are just distracting with noise about any and everything else. Trump is a big proponent of that as well.

 

[UKMikey]

As for the impeachment process, I have to admit, I hae ma doubts as they say here in Scotland. I don't doubt for a moment the main thrust of the arguments against Trump's conduct - or indeed the wisdom of it... but unfortunately the whole process does look extraordinarily partisan..

This makes it sound like it's a question of optics rather than right or wrong. Is this the case?

The fact is, though, that Trump will not be impeached and the partisan nature of the investigation and the impeachment process/votes will likely only serve to galvanise Trump's core message, which is that the Democrats are just trying to get rid of him through any means possible, barring an election

I'm not sure whether you can galvanise a message. Perhaps what might end up being galvanised is Trump's core support who would follow him whatever he says or does anyway.

 

[Danoff]

The fact is, though, that Trump will not be impeached and the partisan nature of the investigation and the impeachment process/votes will likely only serve to galvanise Trump's core message, which is that the Democrats are just trying to get rid of him through any means possible, barring an election.

He will be impeached, he just won't be removed from office. Impeachment is always a partisan process in the US. It was for Nixon (and the moment it wasn't, he resigned), and it was for Clinton as well.

I have a theory that we will never see the Senate remove a president from office. Because if the votes have gone south in the Senate, the President will resign (like Nixon), and if they haven't, removal won't happen. It seems very unlikely that the Senate would ever actually exercise that power directly.

Republicans have mounted approximately no legal defense here. Mostly they've gone after every other issue they can think of. Procedural issues, outing the whistleblower, retribution, character attacks on the democrats, threats. Basically anything non-substantive. The actual legal issue at hand is essentially settled. Trump admitted guilt, and all testimony corroborates his own admission of guilt.

I ask you, and everyone in this thread, what would you have the Democrats do? Choose not to impeach, even though the President has admitted guilt publicly, and all testimony corroborates his guilt, simply because the Republicans are making too much noise and refuse to live up to their own oaths of office?

 

[Groundfish]

@Touring Mars
I will refrain from off topic posts. You summed it up.
I will do my best to avoid this section of the site going forward.

All, with these emotionally charged issues it’s just too much for me.
I will leave you alone. Do not expect further postings from me since my posts will not lead to good debate but will inevitably become pointless and combative.
I don’t wanna go there anymore so thanks for the discussion and I wish you all well, even you @Scaff. I still maintain what I said in my original post about the fact that your postings are all well reasoned.
This just isn’t my forte, and I will not continue.
The topic was just summed up anyways.

Cheers and may you all debate logically and peaceably.

 

[Biggles]

I just read the letter I posted.
His defence of himself is dead on. Of course some of it is just Trump being Trump. I know how you lefties hate that.

I voted for Clinton. I became a Republican during his impeachment. It wasn't about sex. But that was the constant lie of the Democrats.

Do not quote me unless you have read the entire letter.

The letter can be summarized pretty succinctly: Trump is a snowflake - he can dish it out but is a big cry baby when somebody stands up to his abusive behaviour.

 

[ryzno]

Really though, I'm shocked that they're bothering to work at all in the month of December. It seems like if there's one thing the US government is really good at, it's not working.

From what I heard it won't reach the Senate till January.

@Touring Mars
I will refrain from off topic posts. You summed it up.
I will do my best to avoid this section of the site going forward.

All, with these emotionally charged issues it’s just too much for me.
I will leave you alone. Do not expect further postings from me since my posts will not lead to good debate but will inevitably become pointless and combative.
I don’t wanna go there anymore so thanks for the discussion and I wish you all well, even you @Scaff. I still maintain what I said in my original post about the fact that your postings are all well reasoned.
This just isn’t my forte, and I will not continue.
The topic was just summed up anyways.

Cheers and may you all debate logically and peaceably.

Don't feel like that man. It's good to debate people.
Trust me, I'm not the most liked or have the best posts in this section or agreed with posts.
I'm sure you know this site well but don't let it detour you.
I've had posts I posted where I was wrong and agreed with the rebuttal, I've also had posts where they claim I'm wrong and I still won't agree with them. It happens. Hell I don't even really come here for GT anymore but I do appreciate hearing other opinions.
It is what it is and you get international opinions too!

I'm not trying to tell ya what to do but don't let it get to ya. We need people that have different opinions here!

Peace, love and chicken!

 

[Danoff]

The Senate is sorely missing this fellow right here:

 

[UKMikey]

I know it's kinda ironic that these are organised by moveon.org but...

https://www.trumpisnotabovethelaw.org/event/impeach-and-remove/search/