The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Will the current Articles of Impeachment ever be sent from the House to the Senate?


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The political system as it currently stands in the US kind of needs the Democrats to be as cut-throat as the Republicans. One can argue that the system shouldn't be like that and that the rules should be changed, and if the GOP was an opponent that was willing to stick to a gentleman's agreement not to push laws to their breaking point for the sake of marginal advantage then maybe compromise could be reached, but that's clearly not the situation.

The GOP needs to face consequences for how they've chosen to pursue politics under Trump. Appeasement will give ultimately worse results, in the same way that you don't bargain with a disobedient child. All you're teaching them is that they can misbehave and get away with it. It feels bad, but people have to be shown that there are lines that you do not cross in a well ordered society.

Completely agreed. I'm getting tired of waiting for the Democrats to realize this. Some of the younger ones, like AOC and Ilhan Omar do seem to understand, but they aren't really in a position yet to make anything happen.

This isn't and shouldn't be about vengeance. This should be about creating a society in which people can disagree without it coming to violent insurrection.

Yep. But this also seems out of reach in the current moment. Because the same side that keeps grabbing power and going unchallenged is also the side with the voters who, somehow, imagine themselves martyrs and victims of pretty much everything around them. Until they embrace reality, they're always going to have one quivering finger on the trigger. Literally and figuratively.

But yeah, I agree. It seems unlikely. And to be fair, there's a real danger that trying to impose order on the situation could result in a civil war. But at this point there's probably arguments in favour of that if it results in a government that is more just and responsive to it's people.

They still haven't gotten over the first Civil War. Can you imagine the persecution complex they'd develop if they were forced to give up being 🤬 a second time? I shudder to think.
 
The political system as it currently stands in the US kind of needs the Democrats to be as cut-throat as the Republicans. One can argue that the system shouldn't be like that and that the rules should be changed, and if the GOP was an opponent that was willing to stick to a gentleman's agreement not to push laws to their breaking point for the sake of marginal advantage then maybe compromise could be reached, but that's clearly not the situation.

The GOP needs to face consequences for how they've chosen to pursue politics under Trump. Appeasement will give ultimately worse results, in the same way that you don't bargain with a disobedient child. All you're teaching them is that they can misbehave and get away with it. It feels bad, but people have to be shown that there are lines that you do not cross in a well ordered society.

This isn't and shouldn't be about vengeance. This should be about creating a society in which people can disagree without it coming to violent insurrection.



But yeah, I agree. It seems unlikely. And to be fair, there's a real danger that trying to impose order on the situation could result in a civil war. But at this point there's probably arguments in favour of that if it results in a government that is more just and responsive to it's people.

Completely agreed. I'm getting tired of waiting for the Democrats to realize this. Some of the younger ones, like AOC and Ilhan Omar do seem to understand, but they aren't really in a position yet to make anything happen.



Yep. But this also seems out of reach in the current moment. Because the same side that keeps grabbing power and going unchallenged is also the side with the voters who, somehow, imagine themselves martyrs and victims of pretty much everything around them. Until they embrace reality, they're always going to have one quivering finger on the trigger. Literally and figuratively.



They still haven't gotten over the first Civil War. Can you imagine the persecution complex they'd develop if they were forced to give up being 🤬 a second time? I shudder to think.

I don't think the democrats need to or should behave anything like the republicans, but I do want to see action. I want to see the senate shifted with more states. I want to see supreme court term limits. I want to see Trump held accountable by the court system (not by democrats). I'd like to see deep prosecution of all of the bad actors who have shown up, disbarring of lawyers who have unfaithfully represented their profession (otherwise what is the bar for really). I'd like to see prosecution of corrupt police, and a legal structure that makes this more possible going forward. I'd like to see a push for ending gerrymandering and supporting the interstate national vote compact. These are not the things that AOC or Omar are talking about - they're talking about pushing the political agenda.

The democrats need to shore up the national political structure, or we're going to go through this again.

A civil war is not a realistic possibility. Sure, the crazy people can try, but they're going to be very unsuccessful. They'd need to fracture the military to have a chance at it, and I don't see the beginnings of that, or realistic possibility of that, as of today.
 
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I don't think the democrats need to or should behave anything like the republicans, but I do want to see action.

I don't think you get the latter without the former, at this point. I don't like it, but I don't see how else anything can get done.

I want to see the senate shifted with more states. I want to see supreme court term limits.

What compromise can you honestly envision Republicans making on issues like this? If the Democrats continue to refuse to play the same game the Republicans have been playing for decades now, these things have no chance of happening. Zero.

I'd like to see a push for ending gerrymandering and supporting the interstate national vote compact.

Everything I said above is doubly true here. These are the foundations of the current built-in advantage the Republicans have. They won't give an inch on it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of politics by Republican tactics anymore than you do. But if you think they're prepared to cooperate, even a little bit, on any of these things you've mentioned, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona I'd love to sell you.

These are not the things that AOC or Omar are talking about - they're talking about pushing the political agenda.

What's the difference between the things you listed, and a "political agenda?" Things on the "political agenda" list are things you don't agree with? Is it that simple?

Statehood for D.C. or Puerto Rico is a political action. SCOTUS term limits are a political action. Voting rights and tossing the Electoral College are political actions.

The democrats need to shore up the national political structure, or we're going to go through this again.

Completely agree. And we're back to the need to play the game the way the Republicans have established. If they're given a choice, they're not going to give up an ounce of the current power structure they've built themselves.
 
What compromise can you honestly envision Republicans making on issues like this? If the Democrats continue to refuse to play the same game the Republicans have been playing for decades now, these things have no chance of happening. Zero.

Walk me through it. What I've seen suggests that a simple majority is needed in the senate to do this.

Everything I said above is doubly true here. These are the foundations of the current built-in advantage the Republicans have. They won't give an inch on it.

The interstate compact is a push at the state level, and not every state. I'm less clear on whether gerrymandering fixes can (or must) happen above the state level.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of politics by Republican tactics anymore than you do. But if you think they're prepared to cooperate, even a little bit, on any of these things you've mentioned, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona I'd love to sell you.

I don't see that republican tactics are helping the republicans. The only thing I see helping the republicans is a stacked deck.

What's the difference between the things you listed, and a "political agenda?" Things on the "political agenda" list are things you don't agree with? Is it that simple?

The things I'm talking about are the political structure of the country, not the political policies of the country. Minimum wage, or healthcare plans, for example, do not affect how the political system functions.

Completely agree. And we're back to the need to play the game the way the Republicans have established.

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you mean by that. Because at the moment, that means inciting a mob to assassinate congress.
 
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Walk me through it. What I've seen suggests that a simple majority is needed in the senate to do this.

Yeah, that's my understanding as well. Perhaps my stance isn't as clear as I thought, and/or perhaps I misread what Imari was getting at when I signaled agreement with him.

What I think the Democrats need to do is stop caring about the idea of compromise. Adding new states, or new SCOTUS seats, can be done with simple majority votes that are, on paper, now available to Democrats.

Problem is, in the past they wouldn't have had the will to see such things through. They still foolishly pursue a least some semblance of compromise. They start waffling whenever the idiots of this country start hollering about "socialism," a word whose meaning seems to have become, essentially, "anything that's a little too progressive for the likes of Jim Bob."

I don't think the Democrats should subvert the rules or laws of this country. I just think they need to show a willingness to wield the power the voters have given them in a way they haven't in a long time.

For any of the things you've said you want to see, the Democrats need to give up any notion of getting them done in a bipartisan manner. That's not going to happen.

So when I say the Democrats need to play the same game as the Republicans, I mean they need to stop tying one hand behind their back by pursuing compromise; the Republicans gave up that notion long ago. But I'm certainly not advocating that they mimic the outright corruption that we've seen the last four years. My apologies that I didn't make all of that clearer. Hopefully my position is more clear now?

The interstate compact is a push at the state level, and not every state. I'm less clear on whether gerrymandering fixes can (or must) happen above the state level.

True. I guess I read you bring that into a conversation about national politics as a call to abolish the Electoral College. But I perhaps assumed too much. As far as gerrymandering, I see no reason why Congress couldn't enact federal guidelines about how states can (or more importantly, can't) draw district lines. Of course, any such bill will be met with frantically hollered accusations of socialism, and we're right back to where I fail to see the Democrats standing their ground.

I don't see that republican tactics are helping the republicans. The only thing I see helping the republicans are a stacked deck.

The deck is stacked because of their tactics. I'm not sure how you can separate the two.

The things I'm talking about are the political structure of the country, not the political policies of the country. Minimum wage, or healthcare plans, for example, do not affect how the political system functions.

Okay, I see the distinction you were going for now. Fair enough.

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you mean by that. Because at the moment, that means inciting a mob to assassinate congress.

I hope the clarification I provided at the beginning of this post clears this up?
 
I don't think the Democrats should subvert the rules or laws of this country. I just think they need to show a willingness to wield the power the voters have given them in a way they haven't in a long time.

I'm totally with you then.
 
Sadly, I don't think they've got the stones to stick with it. They've caved, over and over again, in the name of bipartisan cooperation. Every time, the GOP takes every inch offered, cooperates on nothing, and establishes a new dividing line, which the Democrats then turn around and surrender in yet another "compromise" at the next opportunity. Hoping for the national Democratic party to actually get anything meaningful done is folly. I hope they prove me wrong, and soon, but I've watched this cycle happen way too many times to be optimistic.
Today's democratic leadership are just moderate Republicans. Of course they'd compromise with actual Republicans.

Aside from being an obvious platitude, Biden's message of "unity" is very ineffective and even somewhat inappropriate to be used right now. Why should the Democratic party try unify with the side that thinks they rigged the election and refused to substantively call out what happened on Wednesday, let alone the fact that they have virtually no policy goals in common? Does Biden honestly think that after all that's transpired, the Democratic base wants unity with those who are actively regressing this country?
 
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I... don't think there's such a thing any more. The party has moved on wayyyy too much away from those whom you might have used to call that. Maybe there should be a Rino party. It keeps with the elephant and donkey animal motif.
True. By "actual Republicans" I meant elected officials with the "R" in front of their name. Of course the Republican party is now just the Trump cult and openly advocating for fascism and the subversion of one of the most American values of America, fair and democratic elections.
 
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McConnell has usually been able to keep the Republicans in line behind him. Wonder if his decision will influence their’s.
 
25th? Let's heal instead. :rolleyes:

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Invoking the 25th amendment would not set a horrible precedent at all. It would set a milestone precedent that the President really is not above the law and cannot abuse his office for his own personal gain.

Oh well, any future President of any political colour can now do what they want and say "Well you didn't remove Trump, so why me? It's a baaaad precedent."
 
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Oh well, any future President of any political colour can now do what they want and say "Well you didn't remove Trump, so why me? It's a baaaad precedent."

I don't think history will treat pence well on this one. The precedent he's setting is that when you've got pence as your VP, you can attack the country and not worry about the 25th.
 
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25th? Let's heal instead. :rolleyes:

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Invoking the 25th amendment would not set a horrible precedent at all. It would set a milestone precedent that the President really is not above the law and cannot abuse his office for his own personal gain.

Oh well, any future President of any political colour can now do what they want and say "Well you didn't remove Trump, so why me? It's a baaaad precedent."
Breaking: Mike Pence confesses in writing to being a delusional coward.
Let's be fair to Pence here... he's right, 25A is not intended to punish or usurp. But he's also wrong that it was designed to address Presidential disability or incapacity.

It was designed so that a President who was "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" could be replaced by a Vice-President who is not unable to do so. That certainly could encompass medical matters, and Section 3 has been used for that reason, but it is not limited to that. If the President were kidnapped, or locked in his bunker with no external means of communication, he'd be "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" - with no medical requirements necessary.

On his previous behaviour alone, including the breadth of the Bill of Rights he's run right through his arse crack, Trump has shown that he qualifies. That was before he incited a riot against the Legislative Branch then said it was appropriate to do so.

Pence is clearly in self-preservation mode... or "mother" has instructed him.
 
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Let's be fair to Pence here... he's right, 25A is not intended to punish or usurp. But he's also wrong that it was designed to address Presidential disability or incapacity.

It was designed so that a President who was "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" could be replaced by a Vice-President who is not unable to do so. That certainly could encompass medical matters, and Section 3 has been used for that reason, but it is not limited to that. If the President were kidnapped, or locked in his bunker with no external means of communication, he'd be "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" - with no medical requirements necessary.

On his previous behaviour alone, including the breadth of the Bill of Rights he's run right through his arse crack, Trump has shown that he qualifies. That was before he incited a riot against the Legislative Branch then said it was appropriate to do so.

Pence is clearly in self-preservation mode... or "mother" has instructed him.

I agree that Pence is due a small amount of respect for that message, which does show some recognition of the importance of the moment and the seriousness of what is being asked of him. Pence seems to be focused on a diagnosis for the demonstrated lack of action in the Capitol Riot. He's looking for proof that the president is unable to act. I'd argue that this is not required. All that is required is evidence that the president is unable to act. The president has a means of recourse to take back the office, even over Pence's objections, so I do not think that proof should be required in an emergency situation.

The question Pence should be asking himself is, did the president clearly fail to discharge the duties of his office? Is there an explanation for this that suggests that it is no longer an issue? The answer to both is clear and obvious. Diagnosis can come later, the president can demonstrate that he is sound of mind and explain the failure to discharge his duties and regain his office.

Pence is failing to do his duty here, just as the senate did earlier last year in failing to remove Trump from office following clearly impeachable action.
 
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Is that a ****ing copout? That seems like a ****ing copout.

It was reported that Trump recently called Pence a pussy and I...I think it might be true.
 
Pence is trying to save his political career. I'm sure he wants Trump out, but at the same time he knows those are the people that will elect him. To me, it sounds like he's telling Congress to figure it out and he wants no part of it.
 
The whole "Now is the time for healing" message is mostly correct - but it's like saying that someone with a cancerous tumour the size of a baseball is 'mostly healthy'.

Yes, the country does need to unite, and the time for healing needs to begin ASAP... but unless the cancer at the heart of US politics is dealt with first, its malign influence will only hinder attempts to bring the country back together. That said, it is not clear just how far and how deep the cancer of Trumpism has spread, and efforts to excise the stench of Donald Trump from the political landscape in America could well prove to be a painful and difficult path, even if he is convicted.

I agree that Pence is wrong in his assessment that removing Trump will set a 'terrible precedent'... on the contrary, letting him get away with an act of treason is setting a terrible precedent. The only way Pence and other previous Trump enablers can redeem themselves is to support future efforts to ensure that Trump faces the legal consequences for everything he has done wrong, including sedition. I hope that they may wish to defer that time until the situation is less volatile (the only reasonable justification for inaction now...), but I won't hold my breath.
 
Pence is trying to save his political career. I'm sure he wants Trump out, but at the same time he knows those are the people that will elect him. To me, it sounds like he's telling Congress to figure it out and he wants no part of it.
Which means they're both unfit for their offices, doesn't it?
 
Which means they're both unfit for their offices, doesn't it?

This seems like a fair point. Trump clearly demonstrated a failure to discharge the duties of his office. Pence followed by demonstrating his own failure to discharge the duties of his office. Both are clear, and there is no reason to think that the situation has changed. If there were an equivalent of the 25th amendment for the VP, we should be invoking that now. To be clear, Pence's reasons for his failure are better than Trump's lack of reasons for his - but a double fault is exactly the sort of thing that has been finding leaks in our system of checks and balances for the last 4 years.
 
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At this point, after a week of inaction, I don't support using the 25th either. It's up to Congress now. We literally have 7 days to the hour left of Trump in office and an impeachment and whatever trial the Senate can come up with (they'll probably not bother until they reconvene) will do the trick. The Biden administration can do the rest.

As for the meaning of the 25th, I absolutely agree that it clearly says "incapacity" which implies mental stability, and Trump is friggin crazy. But they waited to long.

I'm disappointed that Pence didn't mention he supports impeachment in that letter. I get his excuses against the 25th but at least he could support Congress.
 
But they waited to long.

I believe it was yesterday that the president gave a speech indicating that he would do it all over again, and threatened congress over impeachment. This is an on-going situation, not a resolved one.
 
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