The Trump Impeachment Thread
- Thread starter Dotini
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- eran0004
That’s like asking the defence attorney for a report on the evidence against their client. It raises some good points, but there is also very clear bias.
Danoff
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He admitted it
Also, saying "the evidence does not support" over and over does not make it so.
DesertPenguin
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That last one though. 
It's like he's trying to defend himself on an elementary school playground
It's like he's trying to defend himself on an elementary school playground
Danoff
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That last one though.
It's like he's trying to defend himself on an elementary school playground
Yea, I love the idea that if you don't consider the inquiry "legitimate", you can't obstruct. It's like obstruction doesn't exist.
"That's not a legitimate murder investigation, so hiding this evidence is not obstruction. Loophole!"
DesertPenguin
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Not that, the way he claims execute privilege is a legitimate response to this "unfair, abusive and partisan" process. 
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- huskeR_32
Cowardly GOP Congressional Nonsense
As @Danoff has repeatedly pointed out, and you've utterly unsurprisingly ignored, Trump admitted to doing this. How about before posting any more unfounded nonsense, you actually address that, head-on?
Cowardly GOP Congressional Nonsense
His illegal scheming failed to produce the result he wanted. It's still illegal.
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I simply cannot fathom how these comments continue to be issued, with a straight face, by the same half of the country that just threw an eight-year conniption about Obama.
Dotini
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Are you serious?? You seem to understand that half of the country is upset and at odds with another half the country. Don't you think that some kind of major or significant social or cultural conflict is at work? Don't you think you should make some kind of attempt to understand what is happening? Or is the best thing to do simply to haplessly moan about it?
Let's say you lived in house with a family built on a hillside. Suddenly the house splits in two and half of it starts to slowly slide down the hill, together with half your family in it. Meanwhile your half starts to slide up the hill. You are now shouting at your disappearing family to abandon their half and jump over into your half, but without first investigating what caused to house to divide in two and where each side is going.
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Yes.
Sure.
I suppose one could describe it that way.
When did I say that I'm not?
It's "moaning" to point out the complete short-term memory loss among conservatives in this country? The same group of people who spent weeks fainting in hysterics because Obama wore a tan suit now make snarky comments about anybody who has objections to a criminal president. But nevermind the difference in magnitude of those scandals (or "scandals"), I'm just genuinely baffled at the fundamental lack of self-awareness in statements like @stonesfan129's above. Do they think that everyone has already forgotten how ridiculous and over-the-top right-wing behavior was for the eight years of Obama's presidency?
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- huskeR_32
Odd that @stonesfan129's original comment scoffing at people who are pretty upset with Trump at the moment didn't earn a similar response from you. I get we all have our biases, but yours is pretty damn obvious right now.
Why aren't you excoriating him to "listen and ask questions?"
Also, not for nothing, but I did ask questions. That they will almost certainly go unanswered, yet again, does not mean I am unwilling to understand.
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- huskeR_32
I reckon I will be unsurprised. The Republican party has thus far shown no inclination to favor duty over party.
The same way I always have? What have I said that even remotely resembles being unreconciled to reality? I can be irritated with the way things are going and still be quite tethered to the reality of it.
I suppose there are a few places I wouldn't mind living, and would never say never, but at the moment, I'd probably stay right where I am. I'd continue working, loving my friends and family, and hoping that the future holds better things. Oh, and I'd continue to be a pacifist who supports stricter gun control for everyone including myself.
Are you quite finished projecting things onto me yet?
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- huskeR_32
Cool. Let's have one right now. We can start with you answering this question:
Paragon of conversation participation that you are, I look forward to your answer.
In the meantime, would you like me to go back and find every time I've asked a question in this forum and not gotten an answer? There are dozens, I assure you.
Consider that before you continue to paint me as someone with their fingers in their ears.
Dotini
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I don't have all the answers. I ask lots of questions. I seldom if ever condemn people - neocons excepted.
Below is the post in question. It seems to me he is making an attempt to understand and empathize with the emotional condition of a great many of our fellow citizens.
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- huskeR_32
Given his posting history, decrying "smug liberals" "whining" about investigations into Trump, I think you're applying a favorable interpretation that isn't warranted.
Rather than empathy, I imagine "sad life" is a jab, meant to imply that such folks are pathetic. But, if he wants to interject here and clarify, I'm all ears.
Also, you'll notice that his comment wasn't phrased as a question, which begs the question why you're giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's trying to "understand" anything at all. My post that incited your ire so much in the first place did have a question, and yet I was not presumed to be willing to listen or learn anything. Why is that?
Dotini
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#1 Your question was not addressed to me.
#2 You and others have already decided all the legal issues of the Zelensky phone call. And the other matters, too. For you, the case is closed; the jury has decided and the judge has convicted and all that remains is the frogmarch. And yet the Judiciary Committee has not yet formulated articles of impeachment. Will that phone call even be an item? I don't know that. The actual legal process has yet to take place. I, for one, am loathe to put the cart before the horse and would prefer merely to enjoy and appreciate the unfoldment of history in the making.
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- huskeR_32
That doesn't seem terribly relevant to your labeling me as a person who is not interested in or willing to listen and learn. Unless you think asking Dotini questions in particular is required? In which case, I'm impressed you can reach your keyboard, what with how large your head must be.
Yeah, when the accused party admits to doing the quite clearly illegal thing, it does tend to help folks make their minds up.
Danoff
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It is incumbent upon each of us to understand the facts of the case and determine what outcome (or outcomes) might be appropriate. That way, when history unfolds, we can understand whether we're watching justice, or injustice.
You act as though the judiciary committee first and foremost has justice in mind. That is not always the case, especially in such a politically charged instance. Certainly you must recognize that politics is weighing quite heavily in this case. More heavily for many (probably on both sides) than facts.
Understanding the evidence at hand, and understanding the characterization of that evidence, helps you understand when the people making history are lying through their teeth.
Dotini
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The accused party and his defenders seem to hold the position that the call was legal and above board. Does he deserve a fair trial and judgement according to law? Are you willing to accept the process of impeachment and trial as laid out in law and the Constitution? Do you have any faith or belief that truth, reason and justice will be served? If you were as certain of guilt as you seem to be, would you willing to execute any man without a trial and conviction? Would you place your own personal vision of truth and reality in a higher place than the law of the land? Maybe that serves as a good example of postmodernism?
Danoff
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After he admitted it, he backtracked.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. But he's not going to get that, because it's congress.
What do you mean "accept"?
Nope!
We're not executing someone here. We're removing them from office, the burden of proof should be no higher than execution (beyond a reasonable doubt), and probably lower (perhaps preponderance of the evidence). This is not imprisonment or execution, this is calling someone unfit for the most important job we have.
I love this idea that the judiciary (which is weirdly congress in this scenario) shapes truth rather than the other way around. But no, it's absurd, truth is independent of the judiciary's interpretation.
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- huskeR_32
The accused party holds a number of demonstrably false positions.
Sure. Where did I say he doesn't? Note that this doesn't preclude me from having already formed an opinion based on the evidence that's plainly available.
Yes. Where did I say I wouldn't?
EDIT: Actually, now that I read Danoff's post above, I'd also like to ask what you mean by "accept."
Not particularly, no.
This is an absurd comparison, for the record. But, for starters, I'm against the death penalty. Which is utterly irrelevant when discussing non-capital crimes. Which is also irrelevant when discussing a non-criminal proceeding like impeachment.
But if it needs to be said, no, I would not advocate that established legal procedures be bypassed, and a man executed based on the opinion of one person.
Certainly not. Doesn't mean I can't share my thoughts about it in a forum full of people also sharing their thoughts on it, and many other topics besides.
What does?
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Awful. Where are all the Republicans who were crying foul during the Clinton era? That was 'just' sex and a fib 'under oath'. This is a billion times worse, yet they try to save face and never admit their party does anything wrong. That being said, both parties don't like accepting their parties mistakes, but he admitted it #caseclosed
Jerome
Dotini
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This is probably the smartest thing you've said in quite a while. I like it a lot. 👍
Understanding how flabby (so far) the legal case is against Trump, and knowing how greatly Clinton benefited from winning the trial in the Senate, Democrats may now be considering a detour on the road to political victory. Do you think winning a vote of Censure against Trump would be more valuable than losing a vote of Impeachment?
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- huskeR_32
You're right, this is only from the Republicans so it must be nonsense.
It’s not nonsense because it’s Republican, it’s nonsense because it ignores the same glaringly obvious thing that you keep ignoring. Ya know, the other part of my post, which you had to have read but didn’t quote here. That repeated a question posed to you before by other people. Why can’t you answer it?
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