The Ultimate Street Car Challenge (Restarted)

[FWA2500]

i ran a 1:32.xx in the TT touring car....but thats a touring car....lol

 

[Jetboy.]

Citi d'Aria​

One would never believe the changes that occurred upon this test. Cars that were the best, failed miserably..... The laggers of our collective group rally up to the top 10.



1. Saleen S7
1'30.233

2. Merc-Benz SLR
1'31.861

3. AC 427 S/C
1'33.416

4. Corvette ZO6
1'34.838

5. Pontiac GTO
1'35.746

6. Audi LeMans
1'35.931

7. Callaway C12
1'36.373

8. BMW M3 GTR
1'36.491

9. Mustang SVT Cobra
1'36.536

10. AM Vanquish
1'36.663

11. Monaro CV8
1'36.288

12. Merc-Benz CLK55 AMG
1'36.866

13. Ford GT
1'36.872

14. TVR T350C
1'37.053

15. WRX STi
1'37.335

16. Zonda C12S
1'37.485

17. Jaguar XK-R
1'37.851

18. RX-7 Spirit R
1'39.095

19. FPV GT
1'39.309

20. Lotus Esprit
1'39.323

21. Mitsu Evo VIII MR
1'39.421

22. Speed 12
1'40.756

23. Ruf RGT
1'41.201

24. NSX-R
1'42.344

25. 350Z
1'43.104

26. Viper SRT-10
1'46.162




Driver's Notes

First of all, this test was conducted in A-spec mode. Why? The Citi cannot run B-spec mode (and maybe for good reason...) It also was inevitable: The Speed 12 was de-throned, no less by the Saleen S7. The Cerbera was replaced by the T350C (in case you have not noticed), and given its performance, it will take over the Cerbera's spot from now on. The results can be described as erratic as best, especially compared to previous tests. The Viper is a prime example of this: it was beaten by a 350Z--to the tune of 3 seconds. Apparently, the Citi does not favor the extremely powerful. :thoughtful:

Next up: Nurburgring.

Jetboy

 

[Studentdriver]

Either the time for the Monaro should be 1:37.288, or it should be in seventh place.

 

[Eric.]

How in the world did the 350Z beat the SRT-10?! I'm thinking the loss of traction caused most the leading cars to drop in this test. I assume you are using traction control?

Oh, just so you know, the Speed 12 should win on Nurburgring. According to Live4Speed, the only car that comes close is the ZZII, but that is considered a race car. The reason I say "should" is because you are using B-spec, and you never know what cars it will decide to favor. Yours liked the 12 last time, though.

 

[_kamikazefly_]

ehhhhhh, what on earth happend there, i seriously did not expect the result, vanquish faster then RGT, GTO in 5th position...........................my head hurts

and the cursed AC, that moster should not be there, it should be near last, that car should spin its wheels in third, so im guessing it should suffer in monaco.......but b-spec, hmmmm, u got one good STIG

 

[RC45]

I still think it is funny that the Callaway is slower than the Z06. I think the reason the 12 is faster is because of its brutal acceleration, and the AI does a pretty good job at keeping traction.

That's because the Callaway C12 is slower than the Z06 - in acceleration - but does have a higher top end.

It is a 1999/2000 model based off the C5 Coupe - weighing in at 3400lbs and only putting down 50 more hp than the 2001 385hp Z06. And since the Z06 weighs in at 3100lbs and is more aggresively geared it is no surprise.

But just so everyone does understand, the performance of cars in the game MUST be taken with a grain of salt.

Just basing the results of the Z06 on it's real life counterpart (which I have been daily driving dor 50,000 miles now) the 0-60 and 1/4mile results are closish to real world numbers - but the top speed is way off.

A stock Z06 will pull 174mph flat out, in 5th gear at 6600rpm - shifting to 6th will have your speed drop by about 10mph or more as the reality of 175mph air resistance make themselves felt on the power and extremely tall double over drive 6th gear.

So the 189mph number is just not realistic for a stock car - even for the 405hp 2002 and newer car.

With that bit of reality check in place, view any results you get in GT4 with a grain of salt.



None the less, still a nice excercise that was completed.

 

[FuryX21]

Me thinks the Speed 12 should not have placed first in Monaco.

 

[Jetboy.]

Oh man.... Sorry you guys, for not answering for a couple of days.... School takes about 13 hours of my day (because of track). I can't answer stuff at school because this site is banninated. In fact, just yesterday, I was politely told to get off the main site or else I would be kicked off the system for the rest of school. Just because the only was to see this place is through a proxy tunnel.

Oh well, sod it. Some updates: The Nur test is taking a longer time than expected, but I have about 7 cars left to test. Don't expect too many suprises.




By the way, after the Nur is done... then what?

 

[Jetboy.]

Nurburgring Nordschleife​

13 miles, 170+ corners. Easily the most daunting race track ever created. Predictions slated the Speed 12 as once again, top dog. Was there any doubts?


1. TVR cerbera Speed 12
7'08.186

2. Ford GT
7'13.618

3.LeMans Quattro
7'13.658

4. Zonda C12
7'13.819

5. Saleen S7
7'15.906

6. SLR McLaren
7'17.423

7. Corvette ZO6
7'30.771

8. M3 GTR
7'32.188

9. Viper SRT-10
7'32.378

10. Callaway C12
7'33.018

11. Jaguar XK-R
7'34.560

12. AC 427
7'36.662

13. AM Vanquish
7'36.686

14. Pontiac GTO
7'37.965

15. Mustang SVT
7'42.477

16. Ruf RGT
7'46.107

17. CLK 55 AMG
7'50.712

18. NSX-R
7'54.658

19. TVR T350c
7'54.928


First of all: I would like to formally apologize for just disappearing. Stuff kinda got in the way...

One may notice a slight difference from previous tests; a shortage in our field of cars. Face it, none of the other vehicles would have even came close, especially when there is a 13 second difference between 6th and 7th alone. I do not believe this is the very end of the test, unless you guys kind of let it fade into obscurity again... 👎


The suggestion box is wide-open for the next event. Make the most of it.

 

[DuckRacer]

The suggestion box is wide-open for the next event. Make the most of it.

Well, what do YOU want to do? If it was me, I'd test the current cars on Seattle, Circuit de la Sarthe I, Infineon, or Suzuka.

BTW, this is one of the best threads I've read. It would be a shame to see this thread die.

Duck7892

 

[MailMan]

Great read indeed.
Since you left out a number of cars and don't yet know how to continue, what about adding a few cars? Like some underdogs, for example the Spyker C8, AM DB9, Cizeta V16T, Corvette ZR-1 and for fun maybe a tuner car like the Amuse s2000 GT1.

 

[Jetboy.]

Well, what do YOU want to do? If it was me, I'd test the current cars on Seattle, Circuit de la Sarthe I, Infineon, or Suzuka.

BTW, this is one of the best threads I've read. It would be a shame to see this thread die.

Duck7892

Thank you for the positive feedback, 👍 Believe me, I don't want this to die, either. Infineon doesn't sound too bad.... I don't believe my B-speccie would handle Suzuka too well and LeMans is too oriented towards the "super crowd."

Great read indeed.
Since you left out a number of cars and don't yet know how to continue, what about adding a few cars? Like some underdogs, for example the Spyker C8, AM DB9, Cizeta V16T, Corvette ZR-1 and for fun maybe a tuner car like the Amuse s2000 GT1.

Not to shoot any of your ideas down, but 1.) the Spyker sucks. 2.)so does the Cizetta. 3.) Have a Vanquish in the running. 4.)Have a ZO6.
On the other hand, I do like the Tuner Car idea. Maybe a class refresh is in order, such as "Tuner Cars" or "Muscle Cars" classes are appropriate to bring some other people in to read this once again.

 

[JTSnooks]

Excellent job. Only thing that annoys me is how fast they made the GT. It's good, but nowhere near that good. To post some times from Motor Trend, they compared a Viper SRT-10 and a Ford GT head to head, and here are some of the numbers:

0-60:
Ford GT - 3.6
Dodge Viper - 3.9

1/4 mile:
GT - 11.78@124.31
Viper - 11.77@123.63

Braking 60-0:
GT - 111ft
Viper - 97ft!

600ft slalom:
GT - 71.5mph
Viper - 70.4mph

GT - 2, Viper - 2. Looks like a tie to me! The GT is waaaay overrated in GT. Why? My guess is because Kaz-san owns one and seems to be very proud of it, as he's mentioned it in multiple interviews. However, the times aren't too far off from reality, and with a perfect run, perhaps they could be even closer. Oh, by the way, the Viper has pretty much the best brakes of any production car ever tested by MT. Less than 100ft from 60 is almost unheard of. Only car I've seen before that did it was...well...the Viper in 99. I think that one was in C&D. Here's the link: http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt/index5.html

Oh yeah, of note is the axle ratio of both cars. 3.07 for the Viper and 3.36 for the GT. Stick a 3.36 in the Viper and I bet the Viper would be even farther ahead at the quarter.

 

[clittle]

Really great read this. Have been enjoying it.

So you've done a couple of street circuits, and mamoth run (hehe) and the twist and turns in the town... hmmm What could come next...

This may not be too popular, but how about running on the beginners course (or driving park courses)... it's tight and twisty and could certainly make for some interesting results, there's no super slow corners... hmmm

 

[ving]

great read man!
keep it up
keep tuner cars out of it tho.

the beginners course would actually be an ok idea me thinks

 

[Jetboy.]

Okay. Next two planned events: Infineon Sports Car Course, then Beginner Course. After those two, I may quit the Super Class and begin the Muscle Car class, unless you guys object.

BTW, thanks for the appreciation for my work ving and clittle. It's guys like you that keep this going.

 

[Spottedlaurel]

Keep going! I'll be very interested to see how the muscle cars perform if you do that.

As I like older cars, I'm currently doing something similar with pre-1980 stuff plus some selected low-powered newer cars. Left muscle cars out for the moment as my round one is at Tsukuba; they might join in when I move onto the next venue (probably Trial Mountain for nostalgic reasons). I'm A-speccing it as I enjoy the feel of different cars, so Tsukuba was good as you can turn a few laps there fairly quickly even in something slow like a Fiat 500.

I'll whittle out some of the slower/less interesting to drive cars as I move on. However, right now it's proving interesting to see how cars from different eras and with varying drivetrains, power, weight etc end up pulling such similar times.

I'm keeping tuning and settings out of it and running everything stock, other than turning driver aids off.

 

[Jetboy.]

Okay, this may be the plan as far as the next iteration of the UMCC (Ultimate Muscle Car Challenge.) :

0-60 Times
Quarter Mile Times
Hong Kong Trials
Seattle Trials
Infineon Trials
Seoul Trials
New York Trials.

Some upcoming stuff. Top Speed is dropped from the regimine of tests because, well, they are muscle cars. None of them go over 140; most hit 137. The vehicles by the names of Buick Special, Shelby Cobra, or its AC 427 deriative will not be used.

Current entry list.

Buick GNX
Chevrolet Camaro 350 SS
Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454
Chevrolet Corvette 350 Stingray and 327 Sting Ray
Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z concept
Dodge Charger R/T
Dodge Charger Super Bee
Plymouth Superbird
Plymouth Cuda
Shelby GT350
Mercury Cougar XR-7
GTO

I might add a few more once I can devote more time to the idea and the current USCC is through. Anyone else with suggestions for tracks would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Studentdriver]

I would drop the IROC, as it is far inferior to the other (actual) muscle cars. Of course, I haven't used any of these in a while, so w/e.

 

[1989therat]

My bets on the 350 Corvette..but what do I know?Either that or the Chevelle 454. Either way a Chevy will prevail...

 

[ving]

looks like a nice list.

cant really pic a result from that. cant wait to see it tho.

wish i had more time to play!

 

[Jetboy.]

Infineon Sportscar Course​

1. Saleen S7
1'37.101

2. Corvette ZO6
1'38.981

3. Ford GT
1'39.255

4. Speed 12
1'39.661

5. Zonda C12S
1'40.125

6. AC 427
1'40.667

7. Audi LeMans
1'40.883

8. Vanquish
1'40.981

9. SLR McLaren
1'41.441

10. M3 GTR
1'41.639

11. GTO
1'42.273

12. TVR T350c
1'43.062

13. Viper SRT-10
1'43.257

14. NSX-R
1'43.377

15. FPV GT
1'44.285

16. RGT
1'45.670

17. Jaguar XK-R
1'46.847

18. Esprit V8
1'48.051

19. Evo VIII MR
1'50.604

20. WRX STi
1'50.716




Nice mix in the results, especially with the "poor man's supercar" coming in second. I believe my B-speccie is in with Saleen, now.


Next up: Beginner's Course




Jetboy

 

[Spottedlaurel]

Jetboy, are you going to provide some sort of conclusion to the USCC? Who got most firsts, that sort of thing? Perhaps give points to the first ten, say, to give an overall ranking? Save wading through 5 pages of posts.....

So as not to make it a sterile numbers exercise alone, maybe give us your personal critique of the event too?

 

[Jetboy.]

Jetboy, are you going to provide some sort of conclusion to the USCC? Who got most firsts, that sort of thing? Perhaps give points to the first ten, say, to give an overall ranking? Save wading through 5 pages of posts.....

So as not to make it a sterile numbers exercise alone, maybe give us your personal critique of the event too?

Actually, yes, I was going to write a conclusion to the events, overall points ranking based on performance, how they performed according to my b-speccie (and my driving experiences on Citi D'Aria), maybe some other stuff. You caught onto my thoughts... How odd.

 

[Jetboy.]

Motorland Beginner's Course​

This course is alikened to a go-kart course one of my buddies race on... I honestly had dibs on the TVR T350c winning it outright with its short wheelbase, low weight, and prodidgious power. Mmm...Not quite. Nice suprise for 3rd.

1. SLR McLaren
41.941

2. Audi LeMans
42.810

3. AM Vanquish
43.172

4. Zonda C12s
43.371

5. Viper SRT-10
43.434

6. NSX-R
43.553

7. TVR T350c
43.880

8. Jaguar XK-R
44.003

9. FPV GT
44.045

10. 350Z (GT4 Ed.)
44.053

11. Ford GT
44.116

12. Esprit
44.120

13. Saleen S7
44.405

14. M3 GTR
44. 536

15. WRX STi
44.775

16. Evolution VIII MR
44.776

17. RX-7 Spirit R
44.794

18. RGT
44.798

19. AC 427 S/C
44.805

20. GTO
44.857

21. Corvette ZO6
44.900

22. Speed 12
44.991




I decided to drive all the vehicles to 1) get a feel for when I offer my critique tomorrow and 2) My B-speccie called it a night after blowing every single car into the weeds at least once every lap.

Points of Interest.

SLR, while "feeling" like a slow lap, shows everyone how its done at the small track. The Viper, while fighting all the way, got at least up to 5th. Not bad. The FPV GT beat the Ford GT by just .071 seconds. How a 4-door sedan beat a supercar is beyond me. The ZO6 and the GTO both suffered and the mighty Speed 12 was a second behind a 4-door sedan.





Well, this concludes our little test of the Super Class of vehicles, but all is not lost. As stated above, the Ultimate Muscle Car Challenge will be in full swing tomorrow with the 0-60 Test starting the event. Also showing tomorrow will be my full critique of the vehicles and Points based on their performances starting with 100 for 1st, 99 for second, etc.

 

[Jetboy.]

This is a cumulative assessment of the 9 events in the USCC, each one worth a full 100 points. What car is really the Ultimate Street Car?



1. Audi LeMans Quattro
879 points

What an amazing car. Bit of a suprise when all points were figured out, but as I looked at it, it was quietly, consistantly in the top 5. Words fail me to describe how it drives, based off the Gallardo from Lamborghini. The brash interloper with the linked rings is a force to be reckoned with.

2. Ford GT
868

Well, what could be expected? I mean, it was under frequent commentation that Kaz overworshiped the thing. Not quite enough to eke out the Audi, though. ( )

3. Merc-Benz SLR
866

Who would think a brick like this could do so well, especially at a track such as Motorland? Another suprise like the Audi, it hid quietly in the stats.

4. Saleen S7
862

I loved this car. It understeered a touch more than what I would have liked, but it was blazingly fast with all of 428 cubic inches of raw power.

5. Zonda C12s
859

PD fixed this car's major problem in GT3, which in case any of you do not know, was a top speed issue (220 km/h instead of 220mph) but now it shows the car's true attitude. I must say, not bad, not bad at all.

6. AC 427 S/C
826

Major suprise here. It beat the Speed 12 (by one point) but it shows the Muscle Cars are definitely an alternative venue for racers who want to have a go at the super crowd at discount prices. The car was very grippy on take off, but handling was as expected. It is a '66, after all.

7. TVR Cerbera Speed 12
825

One word: Monstrous

8. Dodge Viper SRT-10
818

This car still caries its pattented "Viper Jounce" knife-edge handling, but it has tamed down from the 1999 GTS. It was an average car, with some distinctive low points, such as Citi d'Aria, where it finished last by 3.5 seconds under the next car.

9. Chevrolet Corvette ZO6
816

It's America's Sport Car. It was a direct invite to the competition, and what comp would be right without one? It didn't disappoint, showing some strong runs, but, when it all gets down to it, 405 hp cant quite keep up with 673 or, say, 798.

10. BMW M3 GTR
799

A real driver's machine, the bimmer required more than the standard skills to make it go. I believe this is what makes them so addictive.

11. TVR Cerbera Speed Six/T350c
793

The Cerbera was reasonably a good drive, but in this mess, reasonably good does not cut it. And in came the the T350c. Tiny wheelbase, light weight, and amazing power, but yet, something was in arears with this car. It feels choked off, and it understeers horridly for its weight.

12. Aston Martin V12 Vanquish
791

Like the SLR, this car somehow belittles its heft and is an extremely forgiving car. No wonder it was in almost evey single game in 2001.

13. RUF Gmbh RGT
789

Somehow this car lost its pizaaz in the transition from GT3 to GT4 and became a chore to drive. Serious disappointment.

14. Jaguar XK-R
785

While not nearly as rewarding as the cars listed above, this machine did have the smoothest shifting automatic, and that has to account for something.

15. Honda NSX Type R
777

Meh, kinda entertaining to drive, and, it's a Honda. Where can it go wrong?

16. Pontiac GTO 5.7 Coupe
745

First of all, this car wasn't entirely stock halfway through the event. I gave it an upgrade to the 405 horse specs of this years model. After that little boost, the car actually showed some life and is a very pleasant drive. When reaching its limits, she settles into safe light understeer.

17. Lotus Esprit V8 GT '02
692

Eh. See Ruf.

18. Subaru WRX STi
667

Not what it's all cracked up to be. Dunno why everyone raves about the thing if it understeers worse than my various FF cars. Major disappointment here, too.

19. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR
657

See above comment.

20. Ford Performancce Vehicles GT
648

What an outrageous car! Boss 302 V8-- in a sedan. My uncle (a cop) fell in love with it instantly once he heard of the specs and saw it in the sheet-metal.

21. Calloway C12
605

This is a sad case. Here is a tuned Corvette, but it should be lighter. Much lighter. Very boring drive with heavy understeer.

22. SVT Mustang Cobra R
601

Once a favorite in the 2001 test, now a dismal performer. Like the Corvette, 385 hp can only be so competitive. It doesn't help to have a live rear axle, either.

23. Merc-Benz CLK55 AMG
589

Not good at all.

24. Mazda RX-7 Spirit R/ Bathhurst R
570

Great car for the money, beautiful handler, but not enough.

25. Nissan 350Z (GT4 Ed.)
562

This car was so perfect, it was nausiating, leaving one to muse, "How killer would one be with 400 hp?"

26. Holden Monaro CV8
468

This thing was so pathetic that I dropped it altogether in the last few events.





There you have it, points ranking and my critique on each vehicle. Tomorrow I will post the results of the UMCC 0-60 Test.

 

[Jetboy.]

I believe this thread is slowly fading off... And yet, so many wanted to see how the muscle cars performed. Hopely this isn't a vain try to keep this thread going...

Ultimate Muscle Car Challenge​

This was the height in the American car culture, an eight year span from '64 to '72, where cars were cheap, heavy, and ridiculously powerful. Each company produced huge engines, ranging from the "tiny" 289 ci (4.9 litres) to the truly awesome 454 ci (7200cc) V8 and often they crammed these monsters into small chasis which produced stunning results. The pony cars class included the Mustang, Camaro, Cougar and later the odd 'Cuda and Javelin, and the ultimate forms of the Muscle Car of the Charger, Chevelle, and GTO soon followed after. This competition, which I must say is kind of a selfish American Crusade, shows which is the best of the truly awe-inspiring. Here are the first results of the 0-60 Test.

0-60​

1. Charger R/T
4.650

2. Chevelle 454 LS6
5.083

3. Mercury Cougar XR-7
5.133

4. Camaro 350 SS
5.198

5. Charger Super Bee
5.216

Plymouth Superbird
5.216

7. Shelby Mustang GT350
5.351

8. Plymouth Baracuda
5.517

9. Corvette Stingray 350
5.597

10. Pontiac GTO
5.683

11. Buick GNX
5.816

12. Camaro IROC-Z
6.016

13. Corvette Sting Ray 327
6.206



No, 6th isn't a typo. Both times were identical between the Hemi 'Bee and the Hemi 'Bird. For those of which who wanted the Camaro IROC out, it didn't finish last, so it's in. Nice suprise for first. I also had dibs on the Chevelle, but the Charger was faster by .4 seconds.


Next up: Quarter Mile

 

[DuckRacer]

If I were you, I'd either make a new topic on this or edit the title so it says "The Ultimate Street/Muscle Car Challenge" or "The Ultimate Street Car Challenge, Muscle Car Challenge Added" or something like that.

BTW, that's some pretty intresting results, namely the Charger R/T.

Duck7892

 

[clittle]

I was really happy to see that the 2wd evo and sti were making a bit of a comeback here.. They're my favourite formula of car and I was starting to get worried that they'd be left behind... ahh well.. can't win em all.... great work.

As with BSpec on this track, don't you love the way sometimes it loses it on the last corner and just happens to slide into the pits... happenned to me a few times and drove me crazy... oh no, he's on the grass again and Bang... straight into the pits.... it was the pits... hehehehe

 

[Jetboy.]

If I were you, I'd either make a new topic on this or edit the title so it says "The Ultimate Street/Muscle Car Challenge" or "The Ultimate Street Car Challenge, Muscle Car Challenge Added" or something like that.

BTW, that's some pretty intresting results, namely the Charger R/T.

Duck7892

Tell me, how do I do this? I have yet to find an "Edit Title" tab anywhere...

I was really happy to see that the 2wd evo and sti were making a bit of a comeback here.. They're my favourite formula of car and I was starting to get worried that they'd be left behind... ahh well.. can't win em all.... great work.

You know, in a sense these two cars are the new "muscle cars." They have the same exact points. Formula= old/new.

Based on cheap cars.
Falcon/Lancer OZ Rally.

Clever Packaging on Straightforward Performance Technology.
Droping powerful V8's in small chasis/Turbocharging, all-wheel drive, intercooling.

Supported By Factory Race Programs.
Trans Am./WRC

The similarities do not end there... Performance is near the same as well. (Well, until you turn that is...)




Well, anyway, here is the Quarter Mile Results.

Quarter Mile​

1. Charger R/T
13.218 @ 109

2. Chevelle 454 LS6
13.292 @ 111

3. Charger Super Bee
13.565 @ 109

4. Plymouth Superbird
13.596 @ 110

5. Shelby Mustang GT350
13.614 @ 108

6. Cougar XR-7
13.636 @ 107

7. Camaro 350 SS
13.659 @ 108

8. Pontiac GTO
13.840 @ 108

9. Corvette Stingray 350
13.873 @ 107

10. Plyouth Baracuda
14.060 @ 104

11. Buick GNX
14.335 @ 99

12. Camaro IROC-Z
14.616 @ 97

13. Corvette Sting Ray 327
14.817 @ 97


The Sting Ray's (I'm talking the '63 here....) 3 speed really hurt it in the speed tests, but its loping 3rd gear would have made it first in top speed, (at 155). The GTO wheezed its way across the line, nearly out of "breath." And how 'bout those Chargers? Dodge really did know what it was doing with the Super Comando and the 426 Hemi.