The Where's the Outrage Thread

[novcze]

I can keep going, but the end result will be simply quoting the vast majority of a report that shows that at every stage of the judicial process a racial bias exists, when it's that widespread in terms of scale and scope we have a term to explain it, its call 'systemic racism'!

I always thought the systemic racism have to show signs of racist systemic policies, but ok I looked at wiki and it support your view:

"form of racism that is embedded as normal practice within society or an organization"

but also:

"Institutional racism is distinguished from racial bigotry by the existence of institutional systemic policies, practices and economic and political structures that place minority racial and ethnic groups at a disadvantage in relation to an institution's racial or ethnic majority."

It was always like that or did it change recently? I mean changed in the same manner as definition of woman changed recently.


What is logical conclusion? People are prejudiced? I mean it's not surprising, but then it will be very hard to get rid of systemic racism.

 

[Scaff]

I always thought the systemic racism have to show signs of racist systemic policies, but ok I looked at wiki and it support your view:

"form of racism that is embedded as normal practice within society or an organization"

but also:

"Institutional racism is distinguished from racial bigotry by the existence of institutional systemic policies, practices and economic and political structures that place minority racial and ethnic groups at a disadvantage in relation to an institution's racial or ethnic majority."

It was always like that or did it change recently? I mean changed in the same manner as definition of woman changed recently.


What is logical conclusion? People are prejudiced? I mean it's not surprising, but then it will be very hard to get rid of systemic racism.

To my knowledge the definition has always been like that, certainly, it was back in the days of the Stephen Lawrence case in the UK, and the investigation that found the Metropolitan police were institutionally racist, which is another way of describing systemic racism.

You are quite right that overcoming systemic racism is a significant challenge, often because people refuse to belive it even exists, but that arguably just makes it even more important that it's done.

 

[UKMikey]

To my knowledge the definition has always been like that, certainly, it was back in the days of the Stephen Lawrence case in the UK, and the investigation that found the Metropolitan police were institutionally racist, which is another way of describing systemic racism.

You are quite right that overcoming systemic racism is a significant challenge, often because people refuse to belive it even exists, but that arguably just makes it even more important that it's done.

We could just shrug our shoulders and say people are racist, get over it. But if the system itself is found to be biased against a specific category of people it'd be better to admit it's happening and at least try to start redressing the balance, than to deny, deny, deny and continually blame the victims.

Then the outrage could do some good.

 

[novcze]

You are quite right that overcoming systemic racism is a significant challenge, often because people refuse to belive it even exists, but that arguably just makes it even more important that it's done.

It is a significant challenge because existence of systemic racism (without racist policies and laws) implies lot of racist or at least prejudiced people.

 

[Scaff]

It is a significant challenge because existence of systemic racism (without racist policies and laws) implies lot of racist or at least prejudiced people.

It does, many of whom will not be conscious of it either, so a significant challenge, but one that is worth fighting.

 

[Biggles]

It is a significant challenge because existence of systemic racism (without racist policies and laws) implies lot of racist or at least prejudiced people.

I think that's the point: there are "a lot of racist or at least prejudiced people." It's not confined to "white people" being prejudiced against brown or black people. Lots of prejudice of various white people towards other white people, based on religion, nationality, language or whatever. And lots of prejudice of brown or black people against other brown or black people based on religion, nationality, language or whatever.

I remember how prejudiced my Hungarian grandparents were against Czechoslovakians. And Romanians ... & Bulgarians & any other ethnic groups that were considered to have "stolen" parts of Hungary after the First World War. They were taught that prejudice as they were growing up. Serbs against Croats & Bosnians ... & vice versa. Hutus against Tutsis & vice versa. etc. etc.

That kind of prejudice has been part of the cultural fabric of communities all around the world for generations. Not surprisingly, it has established itself on an institutional basis. The effort to counter is difficult & requires time & a conscious effort.

 

[novcze]

That kind of prejudice has been part of the cultural fabric of communities all around the world for generations. Not surprisingly, it has established itself on an institutional basis. The effort to counter is difficult & requires time & a conscious effort.

yes, that's not surprising, that's why definition of systemic racism is not very intuitive... it's almost like talking about white privilege in majority white country. I'm not sure what you guys can do about it because it seems to be very deep in the human nature.

 

[Biggles]

yes, that's not surprising, that's why definition of systemic racism is not very intuitive... it's almost like talking about white privilege in majority white country. I'm not sure what you guys can do about it because it seems to be very deep in the human nature.

I think it's cultural, not "genetic". It's always possible to change the culture. The United States, like other countries, is less racist than it was in the past, less homophobic, less misogynistic. But it takes a willingness to recognize prejudice & act to change it.

 

[killerjimbag]

For the people that say I talk about Toronto. Read up! Watch the video! Then form your own opinion.
https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiW2h0dHBzOi8vdG9yb250b3N1bi5jb20vb3Bpbmlvbi9jb2x1bW5pc3RzL2dvbGRzdGVpbi1kby1ibGFjay1saXZlcy1tYXR0ZXItdG8tdG9yb250b3MtZ2FuZ3PSAYkBaHR0cHM6Ly90b3JvbnRvc3VuLmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2NvbHVtbmlzdHMvZ29sZHN0ZWluLWRvLWJsYWNrLWxpdmVzLW1hdHRlci10by10b3JvbnRvcy1nYW5ncy93Y20vOTI4MjY1MmYtMmVmOC00YTg2LWJlZTYtMWJhMzQ2MGZmMzM4L2FtcC8?hl=en-CA&gl=CA&ceid=CA:en

 

[NotThePrez]

Explain how he was allowed out of jail? Seeing his past record?

Probably a combination of completing his prior sentences and/or posting bond. As Joey D mentioned in the BLM thread, this is being done more and more due to COVID.

Also, in America we usually don't jail citizens with records on the chance that they might commit a crime later in their lives. We usually arrest people if we suspect them of having committed a crime. Doing otherwise would be a major violation of ones rights. I'd wager that Canada works in a similar manner.

Explain how he was able to get a weapon again?

Illegal firearms, more often than not, tend to be acquired illegally.

Explain why there is no protests going on there yet again by BLM?

Because Timmy Jordan isn't a police officer who used excessive force while on duty, which resulted in somebody getting unnecessarily hurt and/or killed in the process.

Also, unlike the most of the officers that BLM is protesting, Timmy Jordan was arrested and charged immediately after committing his crime, rather tham being let go for a period only to get arrested later, not being arrested at all, or gaining greater benefits from his employer and effectively getting away scot-free.

Where is Lebron condemning this?

Probably doing more important things like playing NBA matches, since there's not much to condemn here.

Not the narrative !

Correction: It doesn't seem to fit your narritive, which at this point basically amounts to "Random black person(s) commits crime, so BLM bad!"

 

[SportCoaster]

Does History count? I ask because I don't know why people weren't outraged when Gottlieb, in 1983, was forcefully downsized by the Coca-cola company.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

Does History count? I ask because I don't know why people weren't outraged when Gottlieb, in 1983, was forcefully downsized by the Coca-cola company.

Gottlieb, as in the pinball game manufacturer? If so I’d have no idea why Coca-Cola would have any interest in them, and I don’t really understand how anyone outside of a particular handful of pinball enthusiasts would be outraged over that.

 

[killerjimbag]

Perhaps people should read this document about Breonna Taylor and what actually happened.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/63943132/breonna-taylor-summary-redacted1

 

[UKMikey]

Could anyone summarise this for me please, as my free articles have run out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/technology/truth-about-breonna-taylor-meme.html

 

[Scaff]

Could anyone summarise this for me please, as my free articles have run out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/technology/truth-about-breonna-taylor-meme.html

Here you go, copy/paste for you .

"This week, protests erupted around the nation after a Louisville grand jury did not charge any police officers in the killing of Breonna Taylor. And on social media, false and exaggerated claims about Ms. Taylor began recirculating, using a years-old format that was popularized years ago by far-right YouTube personalities.

Charlie Kirk, the right-wing founder of Turning Point USA, posted a video titled “The Truth About Breonna Taylor,” which was among the most shared Facebook posts about Ms. Taylor on Wednesday, according to data from CrowdTangle, a Facebook-owned data platform.

Graham Allen, Candace Owens and Brandon Tatum, three other right-wing commentators, also had popular posts calling attention to “the truth about” Ms. Taylor’s killing.

This playbook is not new. Years ago, Stefan Molyneux, a right-wing podcaster and YouTube personality, got millions of views with a series of videos claiming to tell “the truth about” various prominent news stories, including the killing of Michael Brown, an unarmed Black man whose killing by police in Ferguson, Mo., set off the original Black Lives Matter protests.


The “Truth About” format, which promised a kind of secret knowledge to viewers, was appealing to those who distrusted the mainstream media and wanted to hear an alternative explanation for police violence. And it was ultimately mimicked by other right-wing influencers, including the far-right conspiracy theorist Paul Joseph Watson, whose videos include “The Truth About Black Lives Matter,” “The Truth About Oprah” and “The Truth About Modern Art.”

Mr. Tatum also claims that Ms. Taylor was “knee deep in criminal/drug dealing activities” with her ex-boyfriend. This claim is exaggerated at best. Ms. Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Jamarcus Glover, was a convicted drug dealer and had been in and out of jail during the four years that they dated, but it’s unclear if Ms. Taylor was involved in his criminal activity. In 2016, she was interrogated alongside him by police officers after she rented a car, lent it to Mr. Glover and he in turn handed the keys to another suspected drug dealer, who was found dead in the car hours later. But police then concluded that Ms. Taylor had no foreknowledge of how the rental car would be used, and she had no criminal convictions of her own.

In his “The Truth About Breonna Taylor” video, Mr. Kirk claims that Louisville police had a “no-knock warrant to go arrest Breonna Taylor.” This is false. Police had a search warrant for her apartment, not an arrest warrant.

Left-wing sources have also spread false information about Ms. Taylor’s death, such as the claim that she was “asleep in bed” at the time of her death. (She was in the hallway with Mr. Walker walking toward the front door, according to his account to investigators, having been woken up by the loud knocks on her door.)

But the right-wing misinformation is more ambitious, in that it seeks to reframe the Black Lives Matter movement entirely, drawing attention away from police officers’ actions and onto the personal lives of Ms. Taylor and other victims of police shootings. In this, it is similar to Mr. Molyneux’s videos, which sought to justify the killings of unarmed Black men by painting them as criminals whose actions played a role in their own deaths.

“This is a case that comes down to personal responsibility,” Ms. Owens said of Ms. Taylor’s killing, in a video posted Wednesday that got more than a million views on Facebook."

 

[UKMikey]

Thanks, @Scaff. It seemed odd that only one site would have an exclusive on the truth and that other news outlets hadn't picked up the story. Sounds like you'd have to be pretty gullible to swallow that without at least checking with another source first.

 

[TexRex]

This is the kind of garbage the right peddles.

George Floyd wasn't a great guy. He had a criminal past and he'd been justly held to account for his actions. Those actions did not, however, include holding a gun to the abdomen of a pregnant woman. A meme falsely indicating that an armed robbery victim of Floyd's is pregnant (he was convicted of armed robbery in 2007 and his victim was a woman, but that his victim was also pregnant is a falsehood added to make the crime appear that much more heinous) gets further misconstrued because people want so desperately for their "opponents" (those who want the people enforcing the law to be equally subject to it) to be wrong.

But they're going after Breonna Taylor, an EMT who, by all legitimately substantiated accounts, did nothing worse than associate with some people that she probably shouldn't have. They're going after her instead of the people who killed her by unloading their weapons through a door they'd later break down and then attempted to conceal said action by releasing a report falsely claiming that she wasn't injured during the incident and that the door wasn't broken down.

****...them...all.

 

[UKMikey]

I think we've found the outrage.

 

[McLaren]

This is the kind of garbage the right peddles.

George Floyd wasn't a great guy. He had a criminal past and he'd been justly held to account for his actions. Those actions did not, however, include holding a gun to the abdomen of a pregnant woman. A meme falsely indicating that an armed robbery victim of Floyd's is pregnant (he was convicted of armed robbery in 2007 and his victim was a woman, but that his victim was also pregnant is a falsehood added to make the crime appear that much more heinous) gets further misconstrued because people want so desperately for their "opponents" (those who want the people enforcing the law to be equally subject to it) to be wrong.

But they're going after Breonna Taylor, an EMT who, by all legitimately substantiated accounts, did nothing worse than associate with some people that she probably shouldn't have. They're going after her instead of the people who killed her by unloading their weapons through a door they'd later break down and then attempted to conceal said action by releasing a report falsely claiming that she wasn't injured during the incident and that the door wasn't broken down.

****...them...all.

Even when they come so close to the point presented about criminal pasts & right to a trial regardless, they will still miss it.

 

[TonyJZX]

'extraneous factors that muddy the situation'

no, there are no factors

police arent judge dredd or the 'punisher'

breona taylor was gunned down asleep in her bed. Likely she had no idea what was going on before she bled out.

I dont care what she was... an EMT or drug dealer or prostitute or school teacher.

no one anywhere should be gunned down by police if you're not in active exchange of gunfire with the police

I think anywhere world wide, the police are a problem, maybe THE problem.

Over here we have police who are actively molesting children in body searches. White middle class children of both sexes, they dont care. And people live with it.

Police are like the metaphorical 'discovery of fire'.

Fire is a great servant, it heats you up, cooks your food, sparks your gasoline in your car.

Or its a bad master in that it burns your house down with your wife and kids inside.

The police need to kept on a tight leash and in most countries they are not.

Guess where your cops are on the spectrum?

While cases like Floyd and Taylor get the limelight I think people should also be aware of cases like Daniel Shaver.

There's a slew of white people who are killed by cops and its sinks below the surface. In a way I think its a case of saving the most endangered species so that those 'less endangered' get saved too.

I dont feel safe around police. I dont feel like its good practice to call the police in an emergency more realistically, after an emergency. They'll only make things worse.

People never say **** the firemen or **** the doctors/nurses... I wonder why?

 

[UKMikey]

breona taylor was gunned down asleep in her bed. Likely she had no idea what was going on before she bled out.

I understand and sympathise with what you're saying and appreciate where you're coming from but Breonna was awake when she was shot.

Not that that makes her any more guilty of what TPUSA are putting out. What's next? Are they going to say that Tamir Rice had a history of pointing toy guns at people and once threatened a fat kid in a playground?

 

[TexRex]

I think we've found the outrage.

Yeah, sorry...I just don't get it sometimes. It's like the ****-heels themselves aren't getting killed by cops utilizing excessive force, so nobody is.

Even when they come so close to the point presented about criminal pasts & right to a trial regardless, they will still miss it.

Amazing.

Okay, so I could probably address the ignorance of that response, but what really jumps out at me is how others have chosen to respond silently. I mean...it's colorful, so it's hard to miss (I gather color is added to indicate how the person who took the screenshot voted).

I can just imagine the thought process (I'm being generous here, calling it a thought process when it's likely a knee-jerk response)of those who contributed to the prevailing ratings.

"Opposing view."

*REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*

"Yeeeeaaahh, you tell 'em."

Goddamn echo chamber.

The police need to kept on a tight leash and in most countries they are not.

While cases like Floyd and Taylor get the limelight I think people should also be aware of cases like Daniel Shaver.

First and foremost, I want to second another's sentiment and say that I appreciate where [I think] you're coming from, even if I sort of disagree with a couple points that I address here.

Regarding the first quote, I don't actually expect any kind of leash. To play along with the analogy, I'd like them to be whacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. I want them to be held accountable for their actions. I think it could take a lot of time for this to be felt with those upholding the blue code reluctant to change, but I think the result has the potential to be staggering. I don't expect an end to racism. I think that's a pretty big ask and, frankly, I don't think it's necessary. But if you remove protections for those who violate the rights of people they're meant to protect, you also remove protections for those with bigoted views who violate the rights of people they're meant to protect.

As for the second, I think people are aware of Daniel Shaver. Not just people in Arizona or Texas, but people throughout the country. What's crazy is that your Daniel Shavers and your Tony Timpas are held up as exceptions by those who oppose change, as sort of a gotcha to "BLM" (anyone that the right sees as supporting change, and especially anyone that the right can associate with those supporting change when bad acts are perpetrated; it's an incredibly toxic Us v. Them mentality) because they're white, but they illustrate perfectly that police are often not fit to be entrusted with OUR (I mean EVERYONE, regardless of race, creed or political bent) lives.

 

[NotThePrez]

As for the second, I think people are aware of Daniel Shaver. Not just people in Arizona or Texas, but people throughout the country. What's crazy is that your Daniel Shavers and your Tony Timpas are held up as exceptions by those who oppose change, as sort of a gotcha to "BLM" (anyone that the right sees as supporting change, and especially anyone that the right can associate with those supporting change when bad acts are perpetrated; it's an incredibly toxic Us v. Them mentality) because they're white, but they illustrate perfectly that police are often not fit to be entrusted with OUR (I mean EVERYONE, regardless of race, creed or political bent) lives.

This is part of the reason why when discussing these topics, I've started to describe the victims as "citizens" or "American citizens," because I feel like doing so actually puts everybody on the same level (though the fact that I feel the need to do that is incredibly frustrating), and hopefully makes the discussion at least slightly more relatable. It's me trying to drive home the fact that these are ultimately everyday Americans that are having their personal and/or Constitutional rights denied to them.

The thing I still genuinely don't get is why the people who are defending these crappy cops and stupid incidents are so hell-bent on doing so. When it comes to other talking points like drug reform, education reform, toning down on military funding, etc., I get why some folks are against it (as ridiculous as their reasons tend to be). But calling for police officers to be held accountable for their actions, and wanting to police be overall more effective and have better resources to deal with problems outside of their scope? That literally benefits everyone in this country. I don't get it, and I've yet to hear a reason for keeping the current systems that makes even a lick of sense.

 

[TexRex]

The thing I still genuinely don't get is why the people who are defending these crappy cops and stupid incidents are so hell-bent on doing so. When it comes to other talking points like drug reform, education reform, toning down on military funding, etc., I get why some folks are against it (as ridiculous as their reasons tend to be). But calling for police officers to be held accountable for their actions, and wanting to police be overall more effective and have better resources to deal with problems outside of their scope? That literally benefits everyone in this country. I don't get it, and I've yet to hear a reason for keeping the current systems that makes even a lick of sense.

"My enemy's enemy is my friend."

They don't want cops to be held accountable because of who they see calling for cops to be held accountable.

 

[Joey D]

But calling for police officers to be held accountable for their actions, and wanting to police be overall more effective and have better resources to deal with problems outside of their scope? That literally benefits everyone in this country. I don't get it, and I've yet to hear a reason for keeping the current systems that makes even a lick of sense.

I see it as a few reasons. First, the US has this weird fascination with glorifying the military and first responders. I'm not saying that they don't deserve some of the praise they get, but at the end of the day, they are still doing a job to earn a paycheck, just like you or I. However, some people take this to the absolute extreme and put these people on some sort of pedestal. Basically, these people can do no wrong. I have a buddy who was a cook in the Army and he said it's always weird when people thank him for his service since he just working in the kitchen on a base.

Secondly, some people see the cops abusing their powers towards people they assume are bad people. Look at those who support the cops who killed George Floyd. They roll out talking points that Floyd was a bad guy and he was no real loss to society. Whether he was a bad guy or not isn't the point and they don't seem to understand this. They're also entirely ignorant of the Bill of Rights that prevent the government from performing unlawful search and seizures along with every criminal having the right to a trial by jury.

Thirdly, there's just good old fashion racism. A majority of instances that get national attention are when blacks are killed by white cops. While people of all races get abused by police, we only hear about blacks at a national level for the most part. Racist people see this as just one less black person in the population so it's a net positive, mostly because racists are terrible people. They assume cops are just out there "culling the herd" so to speak, so they support the actions. If the national media drew more attention to all police abuse, this might change some people's tune.

Basically, some people live in their own little world and only believe (or want to hear) what their Uncle Rick posted on his Facebook page. This is how we end up with people like Donald Trump leading the country too. If more people actually took a second to think about the bigger picture, we wouldn't have politicians like Trump. Instead, we'd have an actual leader who focuses on varying ideologies and who condemns terrible people, whether Democrat, Republican, or other. I can almost guarantee that George Bush the Younger and Obama would've called for action against police brutality.

 

[huskeR32]

They don't want cops to be held accountable because of who they see calling for cops to be held accountable.

Well that's just about the most succinct way to describe this whole thing that I've seen.

 

[ryzno]

I can almost guarantee that George Bush the Younger and Obama would've called for action against police brutality.

I mean BLM started under Obama. I don't recall him doing much.

 

[huskeR32]

I mean BLM started under Obama. I don't recall him doing much.

Then you weren't paying attention.

 

[killerjimbag]

Here you go, copy/paste for you .

"This week, protests erupted around the nation after a Louisville grand jury did not charge any police officers in the killing of Breonna Taylor. And on social media, false and exaggerated claims about Ms. Taylor began recirculating, using a years-old format that was popularized years ago by far-right YouTube personalities.

Charlie Kirk, the right-wing founder of Turning Point USA, posted a video titled “The Truth About Breonna Taylor,” which was among the most shared Facebook posts about Ms. Taylor on Wednesday, according to data from CrowdTangle, a Facebook-owned data platform.

Graham Allen, Candace Owens and Brandon Tatum, three other right-wing commentators, also had popular posts calling attention to “the truth about” Ms. Taylor’s killing.

This playbook is not new. Years ago, Stefan Molyneux, a right-wing podcaster and YouTube personality, got millions of views with a series of videos claiming to tell “the truth about” various prominent news stories, including the killing of Michael Brown, an unarmed Black man whose killing by police in Ferguson, Mo., set off the original Black Lives Matter protests.


The “Truth About” format, which promised a kind of secret knowledge to viewers, was appealing to those who distrusted the mainstream media and wanted to hear an alternative explanation for police violence. And it was ultimately mimicked by other right-wing influencers, including the far-right conspiracy theorist Paul Joseph Watson, whose videos include “The Truth About Black Lives Matter,” “The Truth About Oprah” and “The Truth About Modern Art.”

Mr. Tatum also claims that Ms. Taylor was “knee deep in criminal/drug dealing activities” with her ex-boyfriend. This claim is exaggerated at best. Ms. Taylor’s ex-boyfriend, Jamarcus Glover, was a convicted drug dealer and had been in and out of jail during the four years that they dated, but it’s unclear if Ms. Taylor was involved in his criminal activity. In 2016, she was interrogated alongside him by police officers after she rented a car, lent it to Mr. Glover and he in turn handed the keys to another suspected drug dealer, who was found dead in the car hours later. But police then concluded that Ms. Taylor had no foreknowledge of how the rental car would be used, and she had no criminal convictions of her own.

In his “The Truth About Breonna Taylor” video, Mr. Kirk claims that Louisville police had a “no-knock warrant to go arrest Breonna Taylor.” This is false. Police had a search warrant for her apartment, not an arrest warrant.

Left-wing sources have also spread false information about Ms. Taylor’s death, such as the claim that she was “asleep in bed” at the time of her death. (She was in the hallway with Mr. Walker walking toward the front door, according to his account to investigators, having been woken up by the loud knocks on her door.)

But the right-wing misinformation is more ambitious, in that it seeks to reframe the Black Lives Matter movement entirely, drawing attention away from police officers’ actions and onto the personal lives of Ms. Taylor and other victims of police shootings. In this, it is similar to Mr. Molyneux’s videos, which sought to justify the killings of unarmed Black men by painting them as criminals whose actions played a role in their own deaths.

“This is a case that comes down to personal responsibility,” Ms. Owens said of Ms. Taylor’s killing, in a video posted Wednesday that got more than a million views on Facebook."

So let me ask a question. Why is it that when an educated black person ,regardless of political affiliation speaks the truth it is it is dismissed as right wing rhetoric or their called Uncle Tom? But Lebron James spews his crap. Yeah that educated black person, that has a grade 12 education, lives in a $2oo million dollar mansion with security. Wake up people your being duped.
Like this man. Jason Whitlock

Or this gentleman Dr.Walter Williams.

Or Larry Elder,you might want to watch his Uncle Tom movie!


Or this round table with a bunch of black intellectual's.

 

[Joey D]

I mean BLM started under Obama. I don't recall him doing much.

Obama created the President’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing in 2014 after the events in Ferguson. I didn't really follow it too much, but I know Obama tried to implement some of their findings that were published in a 2015 report.