TheVerge: Wait for GT7 'unacceptable'

[Johnnypenso]

Well excuse me, but I haven't said that T10 hired 400 people in the past. I said they contracted them. The reason I did this is because this is what T10 said. Excuse me for quoting The Melfort Journal:

You really do struggle with accuracy don't you? Note that you did not quote the Melfort Journal either as they didn't say hired or contracted, they said "working on".

You do realize that Microsoft threw so much money at that series that they could "afford" to hire 300-plus people to work on Forza 3, and 400-plus on the subsequent Forzas after that.

You don't "hire" people you are contracting, you "hire" employees. If you mean something different you should choose your words more carefully instead of backpedalling later and claiming you didn't say something that you clearly did.

As for the Standard cars you loathe, I have already made my statements about them and you know full well what they are. You're ignoring my complaints about Forza, that when I want to modify and livery them, I have issues with a lot of cars that are vexing. You don't modify or paint cars? Does that mean no one is allowed to have issues because you don't? Just because Gran Turismo has issues, it doesn't make Forza with different issues okay. I think even you would understand this. Notice, herr Tor, that I don't say because I have no problem with Standard cars, that no one else is allowed to. But you always seem to whittle away people's discussions to bits where you can challenge them on your narrowly defined basis to state that the ones you argue against are being hypocritical. And this is why I've noticed that people get tired of your wall of text assault on them and let you have your net cookie victories.

You are always fixated on pinning people to the wall with fallacious arguments about personal preference in spite of walls of text that explain how it's not personal preference and about the overall quality of the product. Even this is a not so thinly veiled personal attack on another GTP member that addresses none of the specific issues he raised.

I think I've said enough to satisfy any thinking human on these points. If not, oh well, I have better things to do than argue endlessly. Why you seem to get some sort of pleasure from this than having actual discussions and sparking thought, beats the hack out of me.

All you've done essentially is say, "I want standards because I want standards because I want standards and I will not acknowledge or address any issues anyone else raises about standards because I want standards and you are a bad person for wanting them gone and denying me access to standards" [paraphrasing of course] That's not a very convincing argument.

 

[Tenacious D]

It's amusing because you're not even remotely responding to anything I said.

Then, as usual, I have no clue what you're going at great length about. Sorry if you're just to ephemeral for us lowly heathens. You're one of the few people who have made Griffith500 grump at you over your odd debate style, gently of course because he's an amazing gentleman.

Nice projecting. I want Standard cars gone because I want duplicate cars and incorrectly modelled cars gone and I have zero reason to believe PD will actually fix either thing after 3+ game despite what Kaz has said, so getting rid of the bloat entirely is the only real solution I see. I want Standard cars gone because PD was a first party studio that spent 8 years developing two games in a row that run with framerates all over the place (even after crippling single player races )and it's god damn ridiculous to hear the hubris about how they simply made a game too pretty for the PS3 to handle when there are a bunch of launch window PS2 cars driving around the track and the performance is still inconsistent. I want Standard cars gone because they represent the worst of PD's interview double talk and silly design decisions and laziness, in GT6 even moreso than GT5.

Well, then what are you going to do if GT7 comes out with all of that?

I was usually pretty thoroughly critical about how nasty some of the models were in Forza 4. I recall at least one extensive breakdown of how some specific Forza 4 assets were notably inferior to even the circa-2001 Standard cars; and how some of the Forza 4 interiors were so bad they might as well not have bothered. I'm just pointing out that you still insist on having a humongous and obvious double standard about GT series assets; both the unchanged Standards in game after game after game and the Premiums with iffy modeling and multiple quality tiers (some of them also game after game after game) going into another console generation.
I'll also point out that you attempting to shift "blame" in this conversation is a fairly transparent way to avoid having to actually acknowledge that, or answer the question I posed to you for whether your criticism actually applies to Forza 5.

It's not a double standard. It's a response and comparison point because while people here - of all places - insist that Gran Turismo has become downright satanic, and by extension, Kaz is the AntiDev, other games like Forza are impeccably above reproach. The bots in GRID Autosport are wonderful competitors and race like real race car pilots (gag). That PD should follow P CARS example, a game that was launched with a plethora of issues. Most of us have given up trying to defend a post comparing GT to a bucket of dirt, but every once in a while someone has had enough and posts. And then you or JohnnyP step in to inform us of how full of wrong we are.

But I'll have to say, your example must be pretty deeply buried for Google to dredge it from the depths of the net, because in the thread Forza 4 VS GT5, you once again seem to be using F4 as a hammer on GT5. So yell at Google while you're at it.

Actually, you do exactly that pretty much every time you see the issue discussed. Sometimes you even go so far as to post a picture of a pretty terrible looking Standard like the Diablo JGTC with deliberately chosen camera angles and creative blurring, then say something pithy like "looks great to me, so I'll guess I'll just go enjoy my poo poo Standard Cars while you guys complain about them" to parachute yourself out of the argument. Here's from just an hour before you made this post:

Because of that, when you say things like this:

And then an hour later say this:

I can assure you that no amount of this:

Is actually required to make you look like a hypocrite.

If you say so. It may surprise you that people can approach discussions in the same post with different tacts - oftentimes with you just because of the way you roll, see Griff's debates with you. So let's see if there are any quantitative and/or qualitative differences between liking Standard cars and tracks and disliking Forza 2's broken livery painter.

Forza 2's Livery Editor issues.
Layers just flat out messed up on some of the car list and body kits for many others. Which isn't fun, making a race car that you have to work around certain areas, or leave completely blank.

• You paint a car up with lovely layers all in place, and all you have to do is take it out for a photo shoot, and layers will shift around. And each time you take a car out of the garage, they shift more, eventually reducing it to a mess.
• Many cars had their liveries locked by the artist so they couldn't be altered or copied. These cars had to be given back to the original artists to fix, and they had to be in the mood to help you or... well, sucks to be you.

GT5's Standard cars

• Some people don't like them because they're ugly to them, or having last gen assets offends them for some reason (but amazingly, very little outrage over Standard tracks).
• Some people don't like the fact that cockpit view is blacked out (never mind that there are some Premiums which have no cockpit view at all).
• Aaand... well, that's all I can come up with.

By the way, since you're unaware of it, it's a common practice by photographers to use flattering angles on subjects they like and want to capture. But considering the number of views from which I've shot the NOMAD Diablo, I'm curious as to what angle I've missed.

You really do struggle with accuracy don't you?

Not just because you say so, sorry.

Note that you did not quote the Melfort Journal either as they didn't say hired or contracted, they said "working on".

Not seeing a point here. I'm pretty sure I did quote the Melfort Journal.

You don't "hire" people you are contracting, you "hire" employees. If you mean something different you should choose your words more carefully instead of backpedalling later and claiming you didn't say something that you clearly did.

It's not backpedaling when I've posted about this issue before, and you simply don't remember.

I seriously doubt MS made the massive amounts of cash from the Forza series necessary to produce Forza 4, which involved hiring (edit, a number of) development houses and hundreds of computer techs (edit: 400-plus), plus a Hollywood production firm, plus all the costs on all those cars, tracks and hundreds of other companies' licenses.

Among many. Notice, I said MS hired "development houses." In case you missed that. It means the same thing as "contracting."

You are always fixated on pinning people to the wall with fallacious arguments about personal preference in spite of walls of text that explain how it's not personal preference and about the overall quality of the product. Even this is a not so thinly veiled personal attack on another GTP member that addresses none of the specific issues he raised.

It's simply a fact. Quote me a journalist who has posted an article or video in which they said "The standard cars and tracks are unacceptable in a next generation game." Or the sounds, or lack of serious damage or whatever. I mean, they may be there, but I haven't read them, and I like reading a lot of GT related articles. I hope you don't take this as a thinly veiled personal attack.

All you've done essentially is say, "I want standards because I want standards because I want standards and I will not acknowledge or address any issues anyone else raises about standards because I want standards and you are a bad person for wanting them gone and denying me access to standards" [paraphrasing of course] That's not a very convincing argument.

Now Johnny, this is getting ridiculous. I'd love to know how someone is supposed to say "I love having access to a thousand some odd cars in Gran Turismo, even Standards, and I want this to continue." Tracks too, by the way. Please educate me on how I'm supposed to say this so it pleases your magnificent self.

And one more thing I missed last night in my sleepy state.

Do you really think that help in what is already a heated discussion?

Its a rhetorical question, the answer is no. It doesn't.

Anyone using this or anything similar for any manufacturer, brand, etc. will be considered to be posting flame-bait and dealt with as appropriate.

I think you're rather selective in what you consider outrageous posting, considering some of the inflammatory - and unaddressed stuff- posted about Gran Turismo over the years. I'm also not detecting much heat in this thread. But I will refrain from using a substitute character to allude to the fact that a certain company is outrageously rich.

Anyhow, GT6, watching P.T. video critiques, Valkyria Chronicles, music, writing... what to chose? I think GT...

 

[Scaff]

I think you're rather selective in what you consider outrageous posting, considering some of the inflammatory - and unaddressed stuff- posted about Gran Turismo over the years. I'm also not detecting much heat in this thread. But I will refrain from using a substitute character to allude to the fact that a certain company is outrageously rich.

Concern yourself less with the posting habits of others and focus on your own, you and every member will refrain from using a substitute character to allude to the fact that any company is outrageously rich.

The same as everybody in the this thread can start arguing the point and cut the passive aggressive digs at each other.

These are not debatable points, do not mistake them for such.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Delete

 

[Tornado]

Then, as usual, I have no clue what you're going at great length about.

You could have read what I was saying, instead of simply assuming that I was repeating what Johnnypenso was saying. I never said anything about the staffing numbers issue. I specifically responded to the part of your post where you said that everyone must have forgot that you've been saying something for years, as if that alone gives it legitimacy.

I also don't really care about your interpretation of what other members think of my posts.

Well, then what are you going to do if GT7 comes out with all of that?

You mean if GT7 comes out and there is still very little effort put into accurately representing the performance of dozens of cars; even though said errors have been exhaustively demonstrated and cataloged on GTP and PD, as you like to bring up, listen to what is said on GTP? And the hundreds of duplicate cars still remain against Kaz's statements on the matter; amidst a marketing blitz of "1400 cars" or whatever? And PD harnesses all of the power the PS4 has to offer to have a bunch of Standard cars putt around the track with a jumpy framerate?

I won't buy it.

It's not a double standard. It's a response and comparison point because while people here - of all places - insist that Gran Turismo has become downright satanic, and by extension, Kaz is the AntiDev, other games like Forza are impeccably above reproach. The bots in GRID Autosport are wonderful competitors and race like real race car pilots (gag). That PD should follow P CARS example, a game that was launched with a plethora of issues. Most of us have given up trying to defend a post comparing GT to a bucket of dirt, but every once in a while someone has had enough and posts. And then you or JohnnyP step in to inform us of how full of wrong we are.

"It's not a double standard, because *strawman argument that has nothing to do with anything*" Find a single post I've ever made talking up Grid Autosport. A single post ever saying how GT needs to copy PCars.


I doubt you'll find it since I've never touched either game, but hey. Surprise me. Show me something that isn't just me responding to someone who talks up GT as something it isn't that I know it isn't; but is instead me actively crapping on GT for not being like whatever other game instead. Closest I think you'll come is me saying I'd much rather have Forza 4's scratchy overboosted actual engine noises rather than GT5's ones that at times struggle to even sound like engines; but again surprise me.

But I'll have to say, your example must be pretty deeply buried for Google to dredge it from the depths of the net, because in the thread Forza 4 VS GT5, you once again seem to be using F4 as a hammer on GT5. So yell at Google while you're at it.

Let me tell you all a story.


I bought Forza 4, allured at the prospect of all of those cars with interiors. Glorious, glorious interiors. Believe it or not, the Forza games are the only the second racing series since the first Need for Speed game to have my beloved C4 Corvette rendered with an interior view. Words cannot describe how ecstatic I was at the chance to take my Corvette and tune it and drive it and paint it and have fun with it. It's not the ZR1, but the Grand Sport is all right. All would still be well.





Then I actually saw it, and hoo boy. You know, that one in GT5? The Standard one that dates to 2001 when they put it in GT3? Yeah. That one looks better than the one in FM4. And the interior... oh god, what did they do to it. Not a single detail about it was done properly, and it looks like they took a 16:9 picture of it and squished it to 4:3. And while there are certainly Premiums in GT5 that have a decided lack of detail to them (C5 Z06) and most of the cars have problems with gauges... let's just say that PD is a hell of a lot more consistent from what I've seen, and PD's interiors are more detail anyway.

There isn't a single thing about the Grand Sport model that is accurate when you look closely. The stripe along the middle doesn't get wider as you proceed to the back of the car like it should and isn't the proper width at the front or rear regardless. The mirrors aren't properly modeled, sitting near vertically on narrow stalks on top of the door rather than at a 45 degree angle on a wide base jutting from the corner of the door. The rear wheel arches are modeled after actual aftermarket items for base C4 Corvettes that stick out over an inch on both ends rather than the ones that came on the Grand Sport that ran flush with the body in the front. The hash marks on the front right fender aren't in the right place. The impact strip that runs around the exterior of the car is far too pronounced. The rear overhang is several inches too short. The fuel filler door isn't modeled. The rear window is way too short and as a result is doesn't sweep back at the same low angle.


The Grand Sport in GT5 may be one big block with a lot less polys and painted on body panels, but that big block is at least shaped properly and all of the painted on lines are present and in the right spot.

There are. The quality control on the Forza 2-era models was rather infamously spotty; and there are a couple that are so poor that the GT5/GT6 Standard equivalents look more accurate and the interiors are so bad they might as well not have bothered. That isn't to say that there are a few uncanny valley GT Premium cars; but nothing to the extent of, say, the C4 Corvette in Forza.

That depends entirely on which last gen stuff they left in. The worse-than-GT5's C4 Corvette and NSX? Yeah, they'd stick out just as badly as the Standard cars did in GT5; and the benefits for dumping them to start from scratch are obvious.


The Ferrari 312P? The Mercedes 300 SEL? No, not so much.

So, no, I won't blame Google. And for the third time, does your argument actually apply to Forza 5?

GT5's Standard cars

• Some people don't like them because they're ugly to them, or having last gen assets offends them for some reason (but amazingly, very little outrage over Standard tracks).
• Some people don't like the fact that cockpit view is blacked out (never mind that there are some Premiums which have no cockpit view at all).
• Aaand... well, that's all I can come up with.

So more allusions to supposed viewpoints rather than actually responding to the viewpoints in this thread.

 

[Tenacious D]

Tor, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with all your issues with Gran Turismo. I submit to you that you must be right, don't buy GT7.

 

[Aloha62_2]

It's a matter of quantity vs quality.

Would those outsourced car models be of the same quality as Polyphony's? Doubtful.

In case you didn't notice, GT is pursuing perfection. Handing off their workload to third parties who don't share the same drive for perfection as them isn't in Polyphony's nature..

An argument slightly undermined by GT6 being full of models with incorrect and missing stats (some of which have been out for a decade now), broken tuning features, car model errors and immense inconsistencies in car to car quality.

At this point PD appear to be a backwards and irrelevant group being quickly left behind by it's disconnection from the community and real world. The goodwill of their past success won't last forever and now many of us have ditched the PS3 for the 4 the 'Gran Turismo' brand is just a lingering memory.

Oh well I'm sure a GT7 will appear eventually and will be filled with all the latest GTR variation, odd gameplay decisions and same 'drive for perfection'.

 

[Lain]

Although I'm aware of all these issues that undermine GT's "perfection", it's an inevitable consequence of Polyphony striving for both quality AND quantity. Quality suffers for some vehicles, and quantity suffers in the form of redundant vehicles. It sucks, absolutely. Does it make other racing games better than GT? In certain respects, yes. But in other respects, GT still has a place among all the other offerings.

Besides, Polyphony is showing signs of listening to the community, so I wouldn't write the franchise off just yet.

 

[Tornado]

Tor, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with all your issues with Gran Turismo. I submit to you that you must be right, don't buy GT7.

If you didn't actually intend to defend any of the assertions/attacks you raised, you could have saved everyone a lot of time by not pretending that you would.

 

[MarchingSaint]

Although I'm aware of all these issues that undermine GT's "perfection", it's an inevitable consequence of Polyphony striving for both quality AND quantity. Quality suffers for some vehicles, and quantity suffers in the form of redundant vehicles. It sucks, absolutely. Does it make other racing games better than GT? In certain respects, yes. But in other respects, GT still has a place among all the other offerings.

Besides, Polyphony is showing signs of listening to the community, so I wouldn't write the franchise off just yet.

One of GT's strongest point was the freedom in the tuning of the cars and that every car felt "unique" in their own kind of way, if you added x of camber you get x effect and you can actually see the effects even in the plain aesthetic way. Now i don't really want to go in a white knight quest but prior to GT, there wasn't much of a choice for die hard car-guys and gals to choose from, every car game had the "slow" car, the "medium" car and the "fast" car. 15 years after we can see a totally different scenario where every studio is working on their own kind of "realism": now be it the simulative career, the realistic handling and tuning aspects, photorealistic graphics or even grid girls being actually on the grid ,GT was the first to put all of this in a single game. Maybe not in depth but you can see that GT got almost everything covered ( still no grid girls, i'm sorry.) Now there are a lot of stuff that i would've and wouldn't have done if i were PD chairman, but let's be honest: GT isn't what it is now because they were the first to put the Bugatti Veyron in their games, or the crazy and gimmicky graphics with lens flare,useless wet roads and stuff. When you watch a sportscar event and see the Gran Turismo sticker on the windshield probably it's not there because it had all the worlds track plus every variation, nor every car brand or historic champion. It doesn't even have the Opel Manta! or Porsche for that matter.
Point is: you can nominate very few major motorsport act without being linked to GT, its influence cannot but grow invading the F1 and finally getting worldwide recognition as a game and evolve.You cannot even say what innovations brought new games that gt hasn't done (even if in a tacky way) before: livery editor? remember GT2 and how you could transform your car in a racing car and some having different liveries? Exotics or supercars? well i remember having the ford gt90,dodge concept car and even the toyota triathlon thing (GT4) drifting? a bit late, but check. rallies without being a different game? check. And i'm not even speaking about the GTA initiative, i'll save it for another time.

TL : DR i know it'll only get better, it's the most logic sequence of events: get more recognition, get more money, get more content, get more fans. Point is that maybe it's not evolving like we would like it to but what to do?
A: let's make our own racing game.

 

[05XR8]

Kaz said he's not looking at what other games are doing. PD are doing their own thing. So, it makes sense we'll get it when we get it. The numbers I'd like to see are, when GT7 finally hits the shelves or the online store, how many will sell against PCars and AC.

 

[Skygrasper550]

I'm sick and tired of these kids complaining about the wait on GT7. First of all, these days a big game like GT takes more than 2 years to develop. And before some of you go on saying "Well then why do Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed have a game released every year why are the developers at PD slow or lazy or whatever", NO. The reason why Activision and Ubisoft are able to release those games every year is, first of all, they have a lot mroe developers than PD. Second, they have numerous development studieos located around the world. This allows them to make a certain studio focus on the next iteration of their overrated game, and then have another studio work on the iteration next to that. Meaning, while a Call of Dips:censored: is nearing completion by one studio, another studio is in the middle of creating the next iteration to that. PD doesn't have this kind of privilege, and so there's no choice but to wait. And don't even make them release GT7 any time soon. I'm pretty sure it' still in an incomplete state and needs polishing. They complain right now that it's not out yet, and then if it gets released right now, they're going to complain that it's incomplete and buggy as hell. Kids these days are so spoiled... no sense of patience whatsoever. It's not the developer's fault that you immediately bought a PS4 and expect their game to come out any time soon.

So, to counter the thread title, the wait IS acceptable. Being a programmer myself, I understand the difficulty, tediousness, and effor that comes into making software like this. a 2015 release, even a December 2015 release, is too soon. Personally I'd like PD to take their time in refining the content the game has and release it in 2016. I don't mind waiting another year for the game; they better make sure that it's going to be the best out there once it's released.

 

[Tenacious D]

If you didn't actually intend to defend any of the assertions/attacks you raised, you could have saved everyone a lot of time by not pretending that you would.

Dude, listen. I was waiting for this big rant at Forza, and it turns out that you didn't like the Corvette and NSX. Well, and you didn't like Forza 2 much. Wow, such a harsh critique.

I don't like not having goodies like Race Mod, a Livery Editor, and... well, GT7. You don't liike duplicate cars, Standard cars, and... well, I can't for the life of me think of anything you like about Gran Turismo anymore. We've gone at these subjects in circles endlessly, made our cases a whole gob of times. I see no need to carry on with this conversation, because I don't think we'll never see eye to eye on anything. Ever. And it's going to waste a LOT of time and boardspace on things that really don't matter to most fans. I'd really prefer to see meatier discussions of substance rather than yet another "I hate the Standards" and similar arguments which are repeated around here ad harfium. So like two ex-paramours who just can't abide each other's space, let's move on. Okay?

Now, one thing about the Johnnypenso's who insist they don't dislike the Standard cars, they just want consistency (yeah, right), I suppose then that a game made entirely of Standard cars, tracks and fold out trees would be just dandy. And look again, I see your guy's point on that. It would be pure chewing satisfaction to have the assets of GT6 all redone in high poly Premium glory with all kind of extra features. And getting that will take years of work.

The problem is that you guys utterly refuse to see our side of it. "Nope, our way or... we won't be happy at you." Is it any wonder that hardly anyone wants to touch that third rail here?

And I was reminded by the above post that this is "the unacceptable wait" thread. Look yet again, I want GT7 ASAP too. But not at the expense of a lot of features and goodies that still haven't manifested in GT6. I don't just want GT6 HD, and I'm sure while most of us would be happy to see anything on PS4 in PS4 HD glory, we'd rather not see a simple remake if at all possible. Like, even if PD did decide to take as long as it takes to make an epical GT7, and made the call to do a remaster of GT6 upresed, I wouldn't doubt that we'd all want it to have a sweet infusion of goodies from GT7 in some form or fashion. Would that make the wait longer? Some, I'm not sure quite how long, as it depends on what PD wants to accomplish.

Whatever happens, I want GT7 to be something of a masterpiece. So take your time, Kaz and lads.

 

[Tornado]

Dude, listen. I was waiting for this big rant at Forza

That's strange, because I specifically said this:

I recall at least one extensive breakdown of how some specific Forza 4 assets were notably inferior to even the circa-2001 Standard cars; and how some of the Forza 4 interiors were so bad they might as well not have bothered.

And I said it in response to this:

You're ignoring my complaints about Forza,

And you claimed to have looked for that and failed, so why were you expecting something other than exactly what I told you I was talking about? Do you just deliberately not read what people say so you can have plausible deniability when it comes time to strawmen them later?

The problem is that you guys utterly refuse to see our side of it. "Nope, our way or... we won't be happy at you."

I don't want Gran Turismo made for you. You have a "precious" to fondle, be happy with that.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'd really prefer to see meatier discussions of substance

You keep saying things to this effect, but never expand. What qualifies as "meatier" topics? As far as I can tell, your main issue is with any topic that is critical. Unless you'd like to copy/paste your wishlist for the 20th time, that is.

Now, one thing about the Johnnypenso's who insist they don't dislike the Standard cars, they just want consistency (yeah, right), I suppose then that a game made entirely of Standard cars, tracks and fold out trees would be just dandy.

It was just dandy. There was a game that came out in 2004 you might've heard of. It was called Gran Turismo 4.

There is nothing wrong with wanting consistency, and it shouldn't be treated as an unreasonable demand when literally every other racing game this generation can manage it. I too want consistency over anything else: I'd love to see a GT7 that was nothing but the best, in the same way GT3 stood head and shoulders above its console competition in its day. A game that shows all its newest, shiniest assets for the press shots, while hiding the vast majority that are recycled from last generation, is hardly prestigious.

Would I miss some of the Standards? Increasingly, no. There are a few models I'd miss that don't have a suitable Premium companion, but the feature list on Standards is so short compared to Premiums, that all I'd really be missing out on is being able to hot lap them in stock form, from bumper cam. The crap damage model doesn't do the Standards any favours, modifications are limited compared to Premiums, and there's no interiors. If this is a game about the love of the car, I'd rather wait for a version of the old '71 GT-R I can really pour over, and make my own.

And look again, I see your guy's point on that. It would be pure chewing satisfaction to have the assets of GT6 all redone in high poly Premium glory with all kind of extra features. And getting that will take years of work.

Then do it in steps. This isn't an all or nothing situation, where there are only two options: all Premium, or the current mostly-Standards approach. PD can cull the Standards and work on giving some of them the Premium treatment. If some fall by the side, oh well. The Honda Element will surely be missed by... what, 12 people?

The problem is that you guys utterly refuse to see our side of it. "Nope, our way or... we won't be happy at you."

Surely you see the irony here.

And I was reminded by the above post that this is "the unacceptable wait" thread. Look yet again, I want GT7 ASAP too. But not at the expense of a lot of features and goodies that still haven't manifested in GT6.

Haven't you long been championing the idea that PD should drop GT6 work to focus on a PS4 game? Why the sudden change of tune?

Whatever happens, I want GT7 to be something of a masterpiece. So take your time, Kaz and lads.

Quite a lot of us are hoping for that. The first bit, any way.

 

[JoaoSilva]

 

[JKgo]

 

[hardvibes]

Already people complaining about GT7 not being released yet? GT6 was less than 2 years ago...

Have you ever thought that many people didn't want GT6 to come out on PS3?

 

[Skygrasper550]

A. MEN. TO THAT.

 

[JR98]

Have you ever thought that many people didn't want GT6 to come out on PS3?

Yea, me included. I'm dying at the change to play Gran Turismo but I'd rather it be a polished game than something that was rushed.

 

[Lain]

Have you ever thought that many people didn't want GT6 to come out on PS3?

Us not wanting GT6 on the PS3 doesn't change the fact that we still got a new Gran Turismo game less than two years ago.

I kind of hope that Polyphony announces Gran Turismo Vita instead of a PS4 iteration, just to spite all the entitled whiners. Plus GT Vita would be awesome anyway.

 

[Skygrasper550]

Us not wanting GT6 on the PS3 doesn't change the fact that we still got a new Gran Turismo game less than two years ago.

I kind of hope that Polyphony announces Gran Turismo Vita instead of a PS4 iteration, just to spite all the entitled whiners. Plus GT Vita would be awesome anyway.

Yeah, with PD being a first-party developer for Sony, people would have expected them to have already released games for whatever game console Sony has out for sale now. But at the moment, it seems that Sony still has yet to provide more support for PD.

 

[Tenacious D]

Please don't argue for less of something, when we CAN have more of it. I don't want Gran Turismo made for you. You have a "precious" to fondle, be happy with that.

First of all, fine, you said awful things about Forxza 4 too. Now, why did I type this?

Maybe it's because, with more of it to fully make the point, is that a few people here are arguing that Gran Turismo doesn't need a lot of cars and tracks to be a good game. That GT3 sold so many copies that Gran Turismo never needed to be any larger - never mind that SONY milked that game to death with the four year wait for GT4. But no one argued that till the Standard cars became an issue.

When GT4 was coming out, I recall not one post complaining that it was too big. Had too much to do. In fact, the exact opposite. The same for GT5, until the true nature of Standard cars became an issue to some. Then all of a sudden, oh, well, we don't need all those cars. Just look at the awesomeness which is GT3. Except that this isn't a universal sentiment, as from what I see, GT4 is heralded as the epitome of the series as far as game structure and ways to explore it.

You keep saying things to this effect, but never expand. What qualifies as "meatier" topics? As far as I can tell, your main issue is with any topic that is critical. Unless you'd like to copy/paste your wishlist for the 20th time, that is.

Seriously? How about going through my speculative posts? Might clue you in.

(A game made with solely Standard assets) was just dandy. There was a game that came out in 2004 you might've heard of. It was called Gran Turismo 4.

I do believe I've heard of it.

There is nothing wrong with wanting consistency, and it shouldn't be treated as an unreasonable demand when literally every other racing game this generation can manage it. I too want consistency over anything else: I'd love to see a GT7 that was nothing but the best, in the same way GT3 stood head and shoulders above its console competition in its day. A game that shows all its newest, shiniest assets for the press shots, while hiding the vast majority that are recycled from last generation, is hardly prestigious.

And so, those of us who want them to be included can just keep our opinions to ourselves? Remember, I'm not the only one. More than one-third of those who participated in the last poll on the subject want those Standard cars to return - and tracks.

Then do it in steps.

Hardly the only option. A few others are that the Standards could be relegated to their own dealerships. That they could be installed separately. That in race, the bots only race Premiums. That you Standard haters could ban Standard cars and tracks from your own servers. Being a mod, I expect you have come across these ideas.

This isn't an all or nothing situation, where there are only two options: all Premium, or the current mostly-Standards approach. PD can cull the Standards and work on giving some of them the Premium treatment. If some fall by the side, oh well. The Honda Element will surely be missed by... what, 12 people?

So... you despise the Standards so much, you aren't aware of the many hundreds of cars in that roster? Not very well informed on the subject there, Slip.

Surely you see the irony here.

So, you're saying that some of us who like Standards don't want you to have access to the Premium stuff? Sorry, but I don't remember that at all.

Yeah, there's some irony here, but it's not from me.

Haven't you long been championing the idea that PD should drop GT6 work to focus on a PS4 game? Why the sudden change of tune?

I suppose the meaning slipped by. By my post, I mean that I want GT7 to have those features and wait to release it till those features are ready. It really has nothing to do with GT6, except that if it can be trickled down in a Spec 2 update, sure, I'd love that.

Clear enough?

 

[The Chosen One]

First of all, fine, you said awful things about Forxza 4 too. Now, why did I type this?

Maybe it's because, with more of it to fully make the point, is that a few people here are arguing that Gran Turismo doesn't need a lot of cars and tracks to be a good game. That GT3 sold so many copies that Gran Turismo never needed to be any larger - never mind that SONY milked that game to death with the four year wait for GT4. But no one argued that till the Standard cars became an issue.

When GT4 was coming out, I recall not one post complaining that it was too big. Had too much to do. In fact, the exact opposite. The same for GT5, until the true nature of Standard cars became an issue to some. Then all of a sudden, oh, well, we don't need all those cars. Just look at the awesomeness which is GT3. Except that this isn't a universal sentiment, as from what I see, GT4 is heralded as the epitome of the series as far as game structure and ways to explore it.


Seriously? How about going through my speculative posts? Might clue you in.


I do believe I've heard of it.


And so, those of us who want them to be included can just keep our opinions to ourselves? Remember, I'm not the only one. More than one-third of those who participated in the last poll on the subject want those Standard cars to return - and tracks.


Hardly the only option. A few others are that the Standards could be relegated to their own dealerships. That they could be installed separately. That in race, the bots only race Premiums. That you Standard haters could ban Standard cars and tracks from your own servers. Being a mod, I expect you have come across these ideas.


So... you despise the Standards so much, you aren't aware of the many hundreds of cars in that roster? Not very well informed on the subject there, Slip.


So, you're saying that some of us who like Standards don't want you to have access to the Premium stuff? Sorry, but I don't remember that at all.

Yeah, there's some irony here, but it's not from me.


I suppose the meaning slipped by. By my post, I mean that I want GT7 to have those features and wait to release it till those features are ready. It really has nothing to do with GT6, except that if it can be trickled down in a Spec 2 update, sure, I'd love that.

Clear enough?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

That GT3 sold so many copies that Gran Turismo never needed to be any larger - never mind that SONY milked that game to death with the four year wait for GT4. But no one argued that till the Standard cars became an issue.

When GT4 was coming out, I recall not one post complaining that it was too big. Had too much to do. In fact, the exact opposite.

The argument that GT3 did well despite it's small car list is not the same as arguing no GT needs to be bigger. Find a new strawman.

The same for GT5, until the true nature of Standard cars became an issue to some. Then all of a sudden, oh, well, we don't need all those cars. Just look at the awesomeness which is GT3. Except that this isn't a universal sentiment, as from what I see, GT4 is heralded as the epitome of the series as far as game structure and ways to explore it.

If you're going to dismiss something on the grounds of it not being a universal sentiment, try not to then bring a new statement in that also isn't a universal sentiment.

Seriously? How about going through my speculative posts? Might clue you in.

I covered that. See copy/paste comment.

I do believe I've heard of it.

Superb. Then you'll know it did do well. I suppose consistency isn't all bad, then.

And so, those of us who want them to be included can just keep our opinions to ourselves?

Remind me again, where was this said? Be specific.

Remember, I'm not the only one. More than one-third of those who participated in the last poll on the subject want those Standard cars to return - and tracks.

A poll that was answered by a couple hundred people on a website that, at best, represents only a fraction of the player base of GT.

Hardly the only option. A few others are that the Standards could be relegated to their own dealerships. That they could be installed separately. That in race, the bots only race Premiums. That you Standard haters could ban Standard cars and tracks from your own servers. Being a mod, I expect you have come across these ideas.

I have. And they still result in PS2 assets on a PS4 game. So, personally, I don't care for any of those approaches, and I don't think it'll help PD out with the press if that's what happens, either.

So... you despise the Standards so much, you aren't aware of the many hundreds of cars in that roster? Not very well informed on the subject there, Slip.

I... what? How extreme were the linguistic gymnastics you had to take to arrive at that conclusion? Did you stretch first?

I'm well aware of the Standard roster. We were introduced to it nigh-on fifteen years ago. It's gone largely unchanged in over 11. The point I am making is that not every one of those Standards needs to be a priority for the Premium treatment.

So, you're saying that some of us who like Standards don't want you to have access to the Premium stuff? Sorry, but I don't remember that at all.

Yeah, there's some irony here, but it's not from me.

"You guys won't see things from my point of view! I only see things from my point of view, and won't entertain others, but it bothers me that you won't be more open-minded!"

I suppose the meaning slipped by. By my post, I mean that I want GT7 to have those features and wait to release it till those features are ready. It really has nothing to do with GT6, except that if it can be trickled down in a Spec 2 update, sure, I'd love that.

Clear enough?

Crystal.

 

[urmie]

To answer the title of GT7's wait being unacceptable, I just don't think about it because it's not on my radar, therefore doesn't bother me. It'll come out when it comes out. When news starts trickling in, then it'll get exciting. When pre-orders for the limited edition go up, I'll click that Pre-order button.

I'm looking forward to Forza 6 because that is on the radar with a release we know of. So I am excited for the E3 conferences next week. Maybe we'll hear something for GT7.

Unacceptable? No. When it happens, it's more like "It's about time".
There's just way too many games nowadays that fills that gap in the meantime, even more if you have more than 1 system and a gaming PC.

 

[JoaoSilva]

To answer the title of GT7's wait being unacceptable, I just don't think about it because it's not on my radar, therefore doesn't bother me. It'll come out when it comes out. When news starts trickling in, then it'll get exciting. When pre-orders for the limited edition go up, I'll click that Pre-order button.

I'm looking forward to Forza 6 because that is on the radar with a release we know of. So I am excited for the E3 conferences next week. Maybe we'll hear something for GT7.

Unacceptable? No. When it happens, it's more like "It's about time".
There's just way too many games nowadays that fills that gap in the meantime, even more if you have more than 1 system and a gaming PC.

Agree , and there will always be people complaining , ones because the games isn't out yet , but if the game was released this year others would complain about the fact that the game is unfinished. GT5 took 6 years to come out , GT6 only came out 2 years ago. So what i'm saying is that people shouldn't be complaining about the time that it's taking for GT7 to come. (IMO)

 

[Tenacious D]

(the usual)

Awright, look. This argument is spinning in circles, as usually happens with you, Tornado and Johnnypenso.

Let's get basic here. Do you really think fans want a smaller Gran Turismo 7?

Do you really think the millions of fans who are still buying GT5 and 6 are holding their noses in disgust over the Standard cars, tracks and fold out trees, and somehow the mass of gaming journos and bloggers have missed it?

Go ahead and think whatever you want. But more than a third of us want many of the things I express in my posts, and I do have quite a few Likes on many of them, so pretending I'm the lone loony voice out in the swamp on these issues isn't quite accurate.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

Whatever happens, I want GT7 to be something of a masterpiece. So take your time, Kaz and lads.

Include me in this group. I am so ready for a console game to deliver me everything I want in a racing title. I had high hopes of Forza 6 doing this very thing and Turn 10 dropped the ball for me on the whole dynamic weather and time of day because it's something I love in GT6. I do plan on buying FM6 still, just like I did with GT6.

Would I miss some of the Standards? Increasingly, no. There are a few models I'd miss that don't have a suitable Premium companion, but the feature list on Standards is so short compared to Premiums, that all I'd really be missing out on is being able to hot lap them in stock form, from bumper cam.

I was 100% fine with the Standards in GT5 due to my love for so many models but by the time GT6 rolled around, I was left frustrated with the limited feature set. I currently believe that the Premium cars in GT6 would have better customization and crash modeling if these standards didn't exist. I now do not want them at all...

Let's get basic here. Do you really think fans want a smaller Gran Turismo 7?

Great question Tenacious D and it ties in with my first response to you above. What I want out of Gran Turismo can be summed in a three word phrase... No More Disappointment. Give us the game us long time GT fans deserve.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

If there's one thing GT5 taught me is that a longer wait doesn't gurantee a great game.