They fixed the clutch!
- Thread starter GTguy88
- 78 comments
- 12,056 views
- 287
- RRusso88
Here's my vid compliation. Forgive the upright video. I hate holding an iPhone upwards and snapping a video, but it's the only way I could snap a quick video with three pedals. As you can see it's still a bit of a struggle, BUT the new 1.02 patch modified the clutch greatly, and I am very happy!
- 657
- Texas
- XizangM1
Can anyone else confirm this? I know that, at least before this patch, the GT6 clutch was proven to be unreliable compared to other sims. Here's a quote from another thread with video:
Factoring in Jay's post, it could be a matter of 'style' - how each user treats a clutch system with different levels of carefulness.
The full thread the quote was taken from can be viewed here.
Factoring in Jay's post, it could be a matter of 'style' - how each user treats a clutch system with different levels of carefulness.
The full thread the quote was taken from can be viewed here.
- 67
I could do this before 1.02. I did it often in the AE GT40, in first gear you have almost no engine speeds if you just dump the clutch immediately.
I can also confirm that this was possible in GT5.
I've never had a problem with the clutch in GT5 or GT6, the real problem is the shifter itself. In a real car if you miss a shift, you'll notice right away since the gear lever will pop out of gear, it's not just going to sit in the gear position and somehow not actually be engaged, but that's exactly what happens with the G25/7, or TH8RS, since there's no feedback on the lever. This allows you to do things that would otherwise be impossible in real life, which is why sometimes the game behaves oddly if you miss a shift, you have to manually pop the lever out of gear and back in yourself, sometimes even having to double clutch in order for the gear to engage properly. It shouldn't just let you shift in a way that would normally not work in real life without some kind of penalty, so i have no problem with this system, i don't see why people complain about it so much, when shifter peripherals are more advanced, the problem will be solved.
I can also confirm that this was possible in GT5.
I've never had a problem with the clutch in GT5 or GT6, the real problem is the shifter itself. In a real car if you miss a shift, you'll notice right away since the gear lever will pop out of gear, it's not just going to sit in the gear position and somehow not actually be engaged, but that's exactly what happens with the G25/7, or TH8RS, since there's no feedback on the lever. This allows you to do things that would otherwise be impossible in real life, which is why sometimes the game behaves oddly if you miss a shift, you have to manually pop the lever out of gear and back in yourself, sometimes even having to double clutch in order for the gear to engage properly. It shouldn't just let you shift in a way that would normally not work in real life without some kind of penalty, so i have no problem with this system, i don't see why people complain about it so much, when shifter peripherals are more advanced, the problem will be solved.
- 1,362
When the stick is in "gear" (or a physical slot) you should NEVER be in neutral. That is the most UNREALISTIC, and worst way shifting with a clutch could possibly be in a simulator.
Also couple this with other problems...
1. The disengage/engage point is too low on the pedal travel, as if the clutch master cylinder is failing, and it makes the "N" problem worse.
2. You must lift almost completely off the throttle pedal to make a proper shift--very unrealistic and "clunky" and can cause problems, especially if you have a more "fluid" style of driving.
3. The clutch operation is not analogue at all--just an on/off point
The best way, as implemented by almost all other simulators, is if the driver does perform a mis-shift or just "jams" the stick into a gear, there should be a loud grind, rumble feedback in the wheel, and a delay or lag in the shift and eventually return of "drive" to the car. The driver knows he's done something wrong, and he's "penalized" some for it.
Forza adds more to this by imposing damage on the transmission--the more you do it, your shifts are slower and slower throughout the race (you can also hear a clunk), and you have to pay for the damage after the race. Though it's not as realistic as a stick with feedback and some kind of "lock" to block shifts (that I doubt will ever be developed), it is a good system, and retains a higher level of realism than the constant "N" problem in Gran Turismo.
Gran Turismo doesn't have a "pay for damage" system, but they could apply damage to the transmission in that manner, that with each bad shift, your shifts have more and more of a lag--as long as it's not too extreme.
That would be much more realistic than having the car go into neutral. It drops the "realism" completely, and even though I can adapt to using the GT clutch and post pretty good leaderboard times, I hate the totally unrealistic way if feels.
I can switch over to Forza 4 or another simulator and utterly enjoying driving or racing with the stick and clutch. GraN-N-N-N-N-N Turismo often causes my blood pressure to go up.
Last edited:
- 1,362
I've spent several hours in Gran Turismo today since the update this morning--banking up credits to buy more of the high-ticket cars. There has not been any change to the clutch, and the way it operates. In addition to moving the "bite" point up from the lower part of the pedal travel and make the point analogue, they also need to totally remove the unrealistic feature where the transmission goes into neutral, and replace it with a "grind/delay" feature.
Either you have adapted well, or have driven some of the cars today that seem to be more "forgiving" than others.
The Mazda 787B and the Toyota 86 (LOVE that car) seem to shift much more reliably than others.
Last edited:
- 67
The Forza method sounds interesting, however the sim racing genre should be more open to a skill based system, in Forza, by the sounds of it, anyone who misses a shift will be effected the same way as anyone else and be penalized in the same way. Whereas in GT, when someone misses a shift, it's up to the driver to be perceptive enough of his/her mistake and to then make a correction, the more perceptive you are and the better you are getting the car back into gear, the faster you'll be; it's skill based and i fully endorse that.
The damage system makes sense for a game, but most professional racing simulators actually don't simulate damage, even if their software is capable of it most teams don't use it, it's pretty pointless because in the real world if you have serious damage, then your race is over there's no point in simulating that because the possibilities of what could happen are too large, even with minor damage, the possibilities are too large to be able to simulate properly so it's simply not used.
Also, since you can play any other sim and enjoy it more, why would you honestly care what GT does? It's almost as if you think it was specifically made for you, you really don't have to enjoy it, it's not for everyone.
- 1,443
- Sherbrooke, Québec,
- MastrFocus
I've been able to do so since GT5 with my G27 
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
research
Premium
- 847
- Ohio
- ecko_driver81
Well, paul, it's clear that you think it's a hardware issue so this is probably a stupid question, but do you not see ApexVGear's posts as trying to help everyone enjoy GT on a much higher level? You truly believe that he's just on here complaining in order to get his own satisfaction, and nothing more? The "Fix the GT Clutch Movement" thread is over 240 replies long. There are very good reasons for all of that discourse.
*We should NOT have to fully lift the throttle before you begin to press the clutch. There is absolutely no defending this. When driving a stick in real life, we all start pressing the clutch AS we start releasing throttle, and no damage of any kind would ever result from that.
*We should not be placed into Neutral with the only remedy being "lift FULLY off throttle again, press the clutch, deselect then reselect gear". Thats ridiculous.
Maybe when PD finally fixes this thing they can leave an option for reverting it back to this awful style, for guys like you who are obviously just more skilled than the rest of us...
Last edited:
- 1,528
- Melbourne
- Conza_No1
Actually thats a fair point. But at the same time, given that the shifters aren't that realistic, I'd like the game to accomodate the equipment we have, and when I press the clutch in, change gear and then go to let the clutch out, using the accelerator at all should still allow me to change gear, as it is its a black and white scenario, of either a perfect change (according to the game), or a mis-shift for not abiding by the parameters.
- 67
Well, paul, it's clear that you think it's a hardware issue so this is probably a stupid question, but do you not see ApexVGear's posts as trying to help everyone enjoy GT on a much higher level? You truly believe that he's just on here complaining in order to get his own satisfaction, and nothing more? The "Fix the GT Clutch Movement" thread is over 240 replies long. There are very good reasons for all of that discourse.
*We should NOT have to fully lift the throttle before you begin to press the clutch. There is absolutely no defending this. When driving a stick in real life, we all start pressing the clutch AS we start releasing throttle, and no damage of any kind would ever result from that.
*We should not be placed into Nuetral with the only remedy being "lift FULLY off throttle again, press the clutch, deselect then reselect gear". Thats ridiculous.
Maybe when PD finally fixes this thing they can leave an option for reverting it back to this awful style, for guys like you who are obviously just more skilled than the rest of us...
The assumption is that everyone wants the clutch to be "fixed". Except there's nothing wrong with the clutch, it's plain as day to me and it has been since GT5. I first learned how to drive a stick shift when i was 10 and have never owned a car with an automatic transmission, i can shift just as fast and "fluidly" in GT6 as i can in real life.
As i said in my first post here that i use the clutch to modulate the engine speeds on the GT40 in first gear as well, so it is analogue, there's even a red bar that shows up next to the throttle bar which indicates the position of the clutch. Is my imagination so vivid that i'm actually manipulating reality? I don't think so.
You don't have to fully lift the throttle in order to depress the clutch, honestly, are you guys even playing the same game? I have plenty of videos that prove this, i'm even uploading one right now as i type this, where you can clearly see me doing what you think is impossible. So either, you have a broken potentiometer in your pedal set, or you aren't timing your shifts correctly.
What do you think you have to do if you miss a shift in a real car? Just keep your foot planted and the lever will find it's way into gear? No, you lift off the throttle, get onto the clutch, and get it back into gear, that's what you have to do in GT6. In what universe is it more realistic of a simulation for the gear to select itself when you've clearly made a mistake? The only thing that does is make it unrealistically easy, and if it's so difficult, you already have the option of using paddles or a sequential lever.
Go to 10:09 in this video and look at the throttle indicator bar, i'm using the clutch and throttle at the same time, it's affecting how the car is behaving and you can see the separate red clutch indicator bar.
- 1,443
- Sherbrooke, Québec,
- MastrFocus
That red bar is the brake pedal indicator, not the clutch.
- 67
The red bar on the far left is indeed the brake. There's however a thinner lighter red bar that moves in the opposite direction of the throttle pedal. It's clearly not the brakes. You can even clearly see that my foot is on the clutch, not the brakes, and my foot movement matches the red upside down bar.
Ferrari458Italia
Premium
- 1,219
- Tennessee
- FerrariThugs
- xbox is a joke
it depends what wheel your using I think.
when I had a G25 and I pressed the clutch it automatically went to N, was really annoying
but the T500 has that fixed for me since even GT5.
- 1,443
- Sherbrooke, Québec,
- MastrFocus
Traction Control?
- 534
- Jakarta
- Chiyo_Cute
- 306
- NY
- Liquizon
Is that your driving? You drive like me. I'd like to drive with you sometime. Add my psn Liquizon. Always looking for capable drivers, with wheels.
- 657
- Texas
- XizangM1
Nice driving. Love that extra touch with the racing gloves. 
- 1,362
Please READ the two threads below, every page, every post, and note the number of "likes" on many of the posts.
This isn't a conspiracy. It's not to bash Gran Turismo. It's not to discredit someone that's proud of the fact that they have ADAPTED to the Gran Turismo clutch, and can upload videos of their accomplishments (I have those types of videos as well).
It's because... THIS IS GRAN TURISMO. It's very wrong that such a horrible, unrealistic clutch model is still a part of it.
One of the discussions we have is about "I can use it just fine, so what's wrong with it?"
When compared to REALITY, Gran Turismo's clutch model feels JUST LIKE a car with a failing clutch master cylinder--and I've had extensive experience with that. Add to this the ridiculous and unrealistic "rules" that you must follow, and the "N" problem, and it utterly ruins the experience we should be having in Gran Turismo.
Fix the Gran Turismo Clutch Movement
Clutch, still an utter joke!
- 67
Actually, i went and tried this and it's not the clutch, but it's also not traction control since i have that turned off. I have no idea what it is actually. However, the clutch is analogue, it works in a similar fashion as a real car. I could make a video of that, but there's already one in the first post of this thread so i really don't think i need to.
- 1,033
It looks like the game uses the TC to simulate the clutch being fed in. That bar is normally the TC but it doesn't look like you had it on during this video. That's interesting, I'm not sure if it's new though (I don't have an H-pattern shifter).
Edit: Never mind, I know what's going on. The game always turns TC on when you go off the track, that's what that must be.
Edit: Never mind, I know what's going on. The game always turns TC on when you go off the track, that's what that must be.
- 67
It's clearly some sort of hardware issue then. I have no problems using the clutch like a real car, someone above said the G25 doesn't work properly, if so, that's nothing to do with the software but more to do with hardware support, and since that wheel wasn't originally officially supported, it's to be expected. On my T500, it works perfectly fine, not on/off.
There are probably people using other partially supported or unsupported wheels complaining about this. What they need to be asking for is more hardware support, not to fix something that clearly already works.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
I also have no problems using the clutch, G25 user here, G25 support is not a issue.
- 601
- ProjectTuning
I have the usual misshift issue on my G25, but I can also modulate the clutch for launches and such. I've never tried using the clutch to change the balance of the car while driving ... not even a clutch kick to drift that I can remember.
I agree that the engagement point of the GT clutch isn't realistic, and that it could be easily fixed. The clutch locks you out of gear if your shifts aren't perfect, and that's not realistic, nor is the need to fully disengage the gear and throttle and engage the clutch to get back in to gear ... but I kind of understand that choice due to how the gear shifter works.
It's become so annoying that I just use the paddles now, and I don't like that it's driven me to that.
I agree that the engagement point of the GT clutch isn't realistic, and that it could be easily fixed. The clutch locks you out of gear if your shifts aren't perfect, and that's not realistic, nor is the need to fully disengage the gear and throttle and engage the clutch to get back in to gear ... but I kind of understand that choice due to how the gear shifter works.
It's become so annoying that I just use the paddles now, and I don't like that it's driven me to that.
- 601
- ProjectTuning
Great video man ... but I can say, fairly surely, that my G25 doesn't downshift the same as your wheel/pedal/shifter set. I've done sim racing, as well as real racing, for years now. GT5 and GT6 are the only games I play where I miss gears like 1 of 3 times.
In a real car, and in most every sim I've ever played, it's not required to fully lift the throttle to shift gears. Just putting that out there. If it were, flat-shifting and even rev match downshifting would not be possible. These are very real things, and you demonstrate a great rev match/heel toe technique on your video.
In all honestly, I have never paid attention to that aspect of the clutch function in GT. So I'm not in that argument.
My issue is that the clutch has to be fully depressed to engage a gear. In a real car, and on most simulators, the clutch engagement is not 100% of the pedal travel. I'm sure you know how a clutch works, but I'll explain it anyway to illustrate my point.
On an actual clutch, be it hydraulic or cable, the pressure plate is under tension from the center spring. This is what holds torque against the clutch disc and flywheel. When the clutch pedal is at the top of it';s travel, it first has to unload the excess pressure not being used to transfer power to the transmission. This causes a small percentage of pedal travel at the top to technically decrease the amount torque the clutch can hold (while transitioning) but does not actually disengage the transmission from the engine. This means the top 10%-20% or so of pedal travel is acceptable to use while releasing the throttle, aiding in the transition and allowing for faster shifts when utilized properly. There is a little slip in some cases, but not enough to really matter.
At the bottom of the pedal there is an even larger percentage of travel that goes unused. There is very little physical movement needed on the pressure plate itself to fully release the clutch once the clamping force is released. IF we assume that the clamping force is 0 at around 50% pedal travel (which I think is pretty accurate based on my experience), anything beyond 50% is essentially free play as the pressure plate moves farther from the flywheel, allowing the clutch disc to spin freely with the transmission.
This is where my issue is with the GT clutch and the G25 wheel (perhaps others ... I only have the G25). GT seems to set the 100% pedal travel point as the full release of the clutch and 99% travel to the gear lockout point. This is simply not realistic, as a real clutch always releases the pressure plate a bit more than the minimum disengagement point. That is, unless there is a fluid control issue, like a failing master cylinder, as mentioned earlier.
If we had 10% or 15% travel at the top of the pedal that would not cause an overrevving situation and around 20% at the bottom of the pedal to compensate for free clutch movement before engaging the transmission (20% is lower than my real world example, but sim clutch travel is also much shorter), that would completely solve the clutch issues for me.
