They fixed the clutch!

[xSNAKEx]

Well, paul, it's clear that you think it's a hardware issue so this is probably a stupid question, but do you not see ApexVGear's posts as trying to help everyone enjoy GT on a much higher level? You truly believe that he's just on here complaining in order to get his own satisfaction, and nothing more? The "Fix the GT Clutch Movement" thread is over 240 replies long. There are very good reasons for all of that discourse.

*We should NOT have to fully lift the throttle before you begin to press the clutch. There is absolutely no defending this. When driving a stick in real life, we all start pressing the clutch AS we start releasing throttle, and no damage of any kind would ever result from that.

*We should not be placed into Neutral with the only remedy being "lift FULLY off throttle again, press the clutch, deselect then reselect gear". Thats ridiculous.


Maybe when PD finally fixes this thing they can leave an option for reverting it back to this awful style, for guys like you who are obviously just more skilled than the rest of us...

Thats the problem with PD and some simple minded drivers. They consider driving too "clinical". Its not a step by step procedure that needs to be followed to the letter, like lift of throttle fully, depress clutch fully, engage gear fully, release cltuch fully, etc.

Its all a dynamic process that can happen in a large assortment of ways. The way you manage this is part of driving and your driving style. GT series seems to consider these as chess pieces when in fact the process is more like playing marbles.

 

[starknight97]

All they have to do is allow me to press on the throttle, maybe up to 75% and I can still shift, then I'll will be fine. It may still be unrealistic but I will be fine with it then.

 

[MasterFocus]

All they have to do is allow me to press on the throttle, maybe up to 75% and I can still shift, then I'll will be fine. It may still be unrealistic but I will be fine with it then.

Power shift are done without lifting the throttle!!

 

[xSNAKEx]

Power shift are done without lifting the throttle!!

well you can at least lift of an inch or so quickly and slam it back.

 

[ApexVGear]

Power shift are done without lifting the throttle!!

The "power shifting" I'm familiar with, and have tried in a real car, is lifting enough to match the revs to the transmission (for lack of a better way of stating it) to find that "sync" point. If you get it right, you can "slip" the stick into the next gear. If you drive a car long enough, it's easier to do. Rear-wheel drive is easier, and front-wheel drive is do-able, but much harder to attain a smooth shift.

I would never expect a simulator of any kind to replicate this, and overall, it's just not very practical.

The point I'm making here, and it's an example of my driving and shifting "style," is that even while using the clutch in a car I have become very familiar with, I tend to shift like this--finding its' "sync points" for each gear, and the clutch just ensures there's a smooth transition from one gear to the next.

I do agree with the statements about what a real clutch should feel like. There's springs, pressure, pedal travel, etc. You could drive a car like you do in Gran Turismo, being very "methodical," but it's just not realistic, and I feel it's clunky, even if I can record and upload an impressive video of a run on The Nurburgring while using the Gran Turismo clutch and stick.

Recently, I've been racing a fully upgraded (with nitrous) Toyota 86 at Bathurst, the GT All-Stars Championships: Race 3 (International B license). It's PP is 551 and you're racing cars up to 650 PP. The Ferrari FXX is on the pole. It's seat-of-your-pants, and you MUST get all the technical sections nearly perfect to overtake the other cars, usually leaving you chasing down the FXX in the last of the five laps.

The 86 is definitely more "forgiving" in regards to the clutch, and I did okay in the last race. I caught the FXX going up the mountain in the final lap. Of course it has much more straight-line speed, and can catch up to me on the final straight, but I can usually out-corner it on the kink.

Of course, I downshift/brakeshift to make the turn after the straightaway and kink, and what happens? It misses 4th, the car doesn't slow down enough, I do get third (optimal for the turn), the car jerks and goes wide, and this gives the FXX an opportunity to get around me. That's when I yell, YEP, THIS IS GRAN-N-N-N-N-N TURISMO!

...of course I did a "dirty inside, knock the FXX of it's line" move on the last turn (would never do that online), so I could get my gold credits for the last five laps and 15 minutes of work. I usually have no problems and don't have to resort to this kind of thing when I run this fun race with the 86.

 

[MasterFocus]

The "power shifting" I'm familiar with, and have tried in a real car, is lifting enough to match the revs to the transmission (for lack of a better way of stating it) to find that "sync" point. If you get it right, you can "slip" the stick into the next gear. If you drive a car long enough, it's easier to do. Rear-wheel drive is easier, and front-wheel drive is do-able, but much harder to attain a smooth shift.

I would never expect a simulator of any kind to replicate this, and overall, it's just not very practical.

I do agree with the statements about what a real clutch should feel like. There's springs, pressure, pedal travel, etc. You could drive a car like you do in Gran Turismo, being very "methodical," but it's just not realistic, and I feel it's clunky, even if I can record and upload an impressive video of a run on The Nurburgring while using the Gran Turismo clutch and pedal.

No, when power shifting a car, you dont lift the gas pedal at all!!

 

[GTguy88]

Sorry guys for stirring it up, I honestly never was able to do this until last night for some reason, and I have a LOT of hours between GT5 & GT6. I don't know.

Anyhow, maybe there's a way to adjust where this narrow function area is, by replacing the sensor on the clutch pedal assembly?

 

[paul loatman]

Great video man ... but I can say, fairly surely, that my G25 doesn't downshift the same as your wheel/pedal/shifter set. I've done sim racing, as well as real racing, for years now. GT5 and GT6 are the only games I play where I miss gears like 1 of 3 times.

In a real car, and in most every sim I've ever played, it's not required to fully lift the throttle to shift gears. Just putting that out there. If it were, flat-shifting and even rev match downshifting would not be possible. These are very real things, and you demonstrate a great rev match/heel toe technique on your video.

In all honestly, I have never paid attention to that aspect of the clutch function in GT. So I'm not in that argument.

My issue is that the clutch has to be fully depressed to engage a gear. In a real car, and on most simulators, the clutch engagement is not 100% of the pedal travel. I'm sure you know how a clutch works, but I'll explain it anyway to illustrate my point.

On an actual clutch, be it hydraulic or cable, the pressure plate is under tension from the center spring. This is what holds torque against the clutch disc and flywheel. When the clutch pedal is at the top of it';s travel, it first has to unload the excess pressure not being used to transfer power to the transmission. This causes a small percentage of pedal travel at the top to technically decrease the amount torque the clutch can hold (while transitioning) but does not actually disengage the transmission from the engine. This means the top 10%-20% or so of pedal travel is acceptable to use while releasing the throttle, aiding in the transition and allowing for faster shifts when utilized properly. There is a little slip in some cases, but not enough to really matter.

At the bottom of the pedal there is an even larger percentage of travel that goes unused. There is very little physical movement needed on the pressure plate itself to fully release the clutch once the clamping force is released. IF we assume that the clamping force is 0 at around 50% pedal travel (which I think is pretty accurate based on my experience), anything beyond 50% is essentially free play as the pressure plate moves farther from the flywheel, allowing the clutch disc to spin freely with the transmission.

This is where my issue is with the GT clutch and the G25 wheel (perhaps others ... I only have the G25). GT seems to set the 100% pedal travel point as the full release of the clutch and 99% travel to the gear lockout point. This is simply not realistic, as a real clutch always releases the pressure plate a bit more than the minimum disengagement point. That is, unless there is a fluid control issue, like a failing master cylinder, as mentioned earlier.

If we had 10% or 15% travel at the top of the pedal that would not cause an overrevving situation and around 20% at the bottom of the pedal to compensate for free clutch movement before engaging the transmission (20% is lower than my real world example, but sim clutch travel is also much shorter), that would completely solve the clutch issues for me.

I've actually been able to get into a gear without fully engaging the clutch, there's definitely more than 1% between full release and gear lockout, it's probably closer to 10% if not more. That said, most people are probably just not used to the relatively short travel of the pedals compared to a normal road car, and the fact that the pedal is just a simple spring loaded mechanism and doesn't really behave like an actual clutch pedal.

I honestly don't think it would help if the engagement area was increased though, i think the reason why so many people have problems shifting is because with most normal cars the software has a delay in shifting, usually in the lower gears, like 1st to 2nd. I'm not positive, but i remember reading that this was done to give everyone a level playing field no matter what hardware you used. So if they removed that system, they would effectively have to make cars shift instantly from 1st to 2nd so that no one with a gated shifter could have an unfair advantage, except then most people with a gated shifter would be constantly out-shifted by people using paddles or sequential levers, and then it would be unfair in the opposite way.

 

[ApexVGear]

No, when power shifting a car, you dont lift the gas pedal at all!!

Yeah, I think what I was describing (the sync thing) is referred to as something else.

I think power shifting, with the throttle fully pressed while using the clutch and shifting, should be "allowed" in Gran Turismo, though I wouldn't normally shift in that fashion. You can do it in Forza 4, but you often get a lot of wheel spin, at the least, or you can lose control of the car--a reason for not using it in most road racing situations.

 

[paul loatman]

Yeah, I think what I was describing (the sync thing) is referred to as something else.

Float gears.

Probably way too complicated to be simulated in GT, in fact i don't know of any sim that simulates that accurately.

 

[ApexVGear]

Float gears.

Probably way too complicated to be simulated in GT, in fact i don't know of any sim that simulates that accurately.

There's really no need to fully "float gears" in real life, and especially a simulator. In a real car, it's an interesting way to get the feel of a transmission, and it can help with your clutched shifts, but it's not practical.

 

[TouringBubble]

I've actually been able to get into a gear without fully engaging the clutch, there's definitely more than 1% between full release and gear lockout, it's probably closer to 10% if not more. That said, most people are probably just not used to the relatively short travel of the pedals compared to a normal road car, and the fact that the pedal is just a simple spring loaded mechanism and doesn't really behave like an actual clutch pedal.

I honestly don't think it would help if the engagement area was increased though, i think the reason why so many people have problems shifting is because with most normal cars the software has a delay in shifting, usually in the lower gears, like 1st to 2nd. I'm not positive, but i remember reading that this was done to give everyone a level playing field no matter what hardware you used. So if they removed that system, they would effectively have to make cars shift instantly from 1st to 2nd so that no one with a gated shifter could have an unfair advantage, except then most people with a gated shifter would be constantly out-shifted by people using paddles or sequential levers, and then it would be unfair in the opposite way.

If I have time later I'll do some playing around with the G25 and see where the actual engagement is. I know that GT auto-adjusts for the pedal travel, so it definitely knows where 100% travel is. To be fair, I've never done an actual test ... I'm just speaking from my experience.

I do know that the G25 and G27 were not originally "fully" supported in GT5. That was added as a patch later. Maybe the clutch issues are just an oversight in the patch for the Logitech wheels and has just never been fixed?

Again, I'll try to do some objective testing on the point where the clutch forces the N shift, where it begins to move the car and where it locks you out of gear.

 

[ApexVGear]

If I have time later I'll do some playing around with the G25 and see where the actual engagement is. I know that GT auto-adjusts for the pedal travel, so it definitely knows where 100% travel is. To be fair, I've never done an actual test ... I'm just speaking from my experience.

I do know that the G25 and G27 were not originally "fully" supported in GT5. That was added as a patch later. Maybe the clutch issues are just an oversight in the patch for the Logitech wheels and has just never been fixed?

Again, I'll try to do some objective testing on the point where the clutch forces the N shift, where it begins to move the car and where it locks you out of gear.

I would like to see a comparison video of the Gran Turismo clutch pedal travel and "grab" point of a G25/G27 versus the Thrustmaster. You would have to sync the "pedal video" to the capture, and could just park and place the car in gear, press the throttle, and slowly raise and lower the clutch pedal. This would identify any difference in the two hardware options, and if their drivers (not people) actually make a difference.

 

[TouringBubble]

That's the plan. I have a couple of cameras, but no capture card. It won't be perfect. I also don't have the Thrustmaster wheel to test.

 

[OdeFinn]

Actually, i went and tried this and it's not the clutch, but it's also not traction control since i have that turned off. I have no idea what it is actually. However, the clutch is analogue, it works in a similar fashion as a real car. I could make a video of that, but there's already one in the first post of this thread so i really don't think i need to.

Showing clutch slip against engines rev?

 

[HuskyGT]

I should probably get a wheel.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Many of the posters in this thread will vehemently argue that its not fixed.
Some of them may or may not reside under bridges, one can never can tell.

Personally, I was unable to detect any changes to the way it works post-1.02 update.
Anyway, I have used it since GT5, so its always been "fixed" for me, though not perfect.
I missed a couple of shifts (unusual for me) when practicing for Andretti TT in Single User mode,
GT6 v.1.02.

I use a T500 wheel/TH8RS.

 

[Lawndart]

Simple N (makeshift fix) fix would be a grind and 1-2 second delay on throttle.

The engagement point is especially frustrating with fanatec since the pedal has a lot of travel.

An engine response delay is plenty of penalty... Damage just isn't a core part of GT 6 and can be disabled so the solution isn't universal to the current design.

Someone should check if this is being discussed on the Japanese forums, that's likely where PD are spending more of their time susing out feedback...

 

[BWX]

There shouldn't be any "penalty" for missing a shift or not doing it exactly correctly. It should just go into gear. Why? Because you don't need to use the clutch at all if you don't want to, and it goes into gear every time with the H-pattern shifter if you never touch the clutch pedal. Why penalize someone for doing a bunch of extra work just for their own enjoyment of the game?

 

[IROC89CAMARO]

How about a realistic Manual Transmission to where if you powershift enough it will break your transmission like in real life or NR2003, That mustang power shifting in that video is under warranty so he is going to the extreme for channel views= his clutch will be gone in a few laps.

 

[1241Penguin]

I should probably get a wheel.

 

[xSNAKEx]

No, when power shifting a car, you dont lift the gas pedal at all!!

LoL i told you, you lift of a little bit. Watch your own video you can see he lifts of a tad.

 

[TouringBubble]

Power shifting is holding the throttle open while shifting. The point is to keep the throttle plate open and keep the engine out of vacuum while shifting. Also, insta-torque when clutch is lifted. On a boosted car it keeps boost from falling via the diverter/blow-off valve on a shift.

You can be WOT or lift a touch ... it doesn't matter. It's still power/flat shifting.

 

[Bigbazz]

GT6 always had clutch slip for me (GT5 didn't with my G27 though), the issue was the missing gears, especially from 1st to 2nd after a launch, the game will force you into N if you shift too fast because it likes to shift slow in those situations.

The clutch slip is still not very good though, you have to push the thing damn near the floor before it does anything, and really this is not the biggest issue the biggest issue is missing gears when you're changing gears realistically.

I've never missed a gear in my real car, but If I drive like that in GT6 I miss gears all the time, it's too picky.

 

[Seikenfreak]

G25 here. No problem feathering the clutch.

And if anything I'd go as far as to say they somewhat simulate the different grabbing points for different types of cars.

The only real issue with shifting in GT, and its the same issue like every other racing game has, is that there is no hardware that simulates physically not being able to go into the gear when not clutching properly. It's not the fault of the game, we just don't have a H-pattern shifter out there that has rumble in the stick or a mechanism that locks out the gear unless the clutch is pressed.

And should go without saying but all the cars I've owned in real life have been stick.

 

[TouringBubble]

I would like to see a comparison video of the Gran Turismo clutch pedal travel and "grab" point of a G25/G27 versus the Thrustmaster. You would have to sync the "pedal video" to the capture, and could just park and place the car in gear, press the throttle, and slowly raise and lower the clutch pedal. This would identify any difference in the two hardware options, and if their drivers (not people) actually make a difference.

I didn't get it on video, but I did some testing last night. I went to a test drive mode and just tested the clutch engagement and lockout. This is what I found ...

Tested with Logitech G25

With a gear engaged, you can press the clutch and modulate the clutch/throttle while in gear.
The car begins to move at around 10% of the clutch movement, which feels like it's right off the floor.
Once the clutch begins to engage (10% mark), you are locked out of other gears.

I did not test to see if you could shift with throttle applied.

 

[BWX]

G25 here. No problem feathering the clutch.

And if anything I'd go as far as to say they somewhat simulate the different grabbing points for different types of cars.

The only real issue with shifting in GT, and its the same issue like every other racing game has, is that there is no hardware that simulates physically not being able to go into the gear when not clutching properly. It's not the fault of the game, we just don't have a H-pattern shifter out there that has rumble in the stick or a mechanism that locks out the gear unless the clutch is pressed.

And should go without saying but all the cars I've owned in real life have been stick.

No, it should just go into gear and make a grinding noise or something. That is a solution. It isn't just a problem with the hardware, as other games get around the problem in a logical way, unlike PD.

 

[OdeFinn]

Here's some N-Problems from real life, guy is going on straight-transmission (straight edged gears) on his racing camaro, check entries to "The Chase" on 7.27 and 9.50 and let's have some silent moment

 

[Griffith500]

Something weird about the clutch I noticed a while ago but haven't mentioned (nor seen mentioned) is that the clutch axis does nothing until you depress it about 80%. Then, on the way back up, it's beautifully progressive in terms of slip.

The moment the clutch stops slipping (the gear indicator goes from grey to black), though, and you try to go back a touch on the clutch axis to bring that slip back, it's actually gone back to doing nothing - you have to go all the way back down again to "re-activate" it. That makes modulating the clutch an absolute nightmare, since it muddies the feedback a lot. That clutch slip "switch" is reminiscent of the wheel slip "switch" for the gear selection logic.

I've no idea why they're using such strange switching, and complicated control of the drivetrain aspects altogether. I guess it's partly because it's always been automated in GT games, and that's always obscured and, frankly, carried the unnatural drivetrain physics. I guess we'll be waiting for an overhaul to the driveline modeling before this problem will go away completely.

Still, for now, they could make the throttle axis checks optional, please.

EDIT:

Float gears.

Probably way too complicated to be simulated in GT, in fact i don't know of any sim that simulates that accurately.

LFS and iRacing both do this, and both present the exact method that should be used in lieu of "feedback" from the shifter unit, in my opinion - see iRacing's implementation, bottom of this post. It's clear that GT's driveline model just isn't up to scratch, much as the tyre model, suspension model, aero model etc. weren't and the chassis model still isn't.
They've worked on the things that will arguably have the biggest impact first, and no doubt the rest will come in time.

The checks are most likely a deliberate attempt to level the playing field, except that sequential controls have changed significantly in terms of shift speed since then. There is no reason not to allow full freedom over the three pedals, just like it was in GT5 Prologue initially, if only as an option.

 

[Dimebolt]

sounds ridiculous i know but....

is the problem i am having, with missing gears ( going to neutral ) because of the angle of my pedals ?

I know it sounds stupid, but i have my G27 pedals flat on the floor, as per factory standard, if you will...

because the pedals don't descend from the "ceiling" of their housing, as they do in most real life road cars, am i having major trouble putting the clutch to maximum ? Am i right that the G27 pedals are set like F1 pedals ? Apologies if not, as i am not too knowledgeable on many of these issues...

Do i need to construct some kind of ramp or slopr, for the pedals to sit on, that allow my foot to push forward, to descend the clutch, instead of forward AND down, as it is now ?

Sorry, not sure if i've explained myself very well.

But I guess, the less amount of distance i need to push my foot and only forward, instead of down+forward, could this make clutch use a lot easier for me ? I notice, whilst window shopping on EBay, that most wheel stand/rig setups, have the pedal tray, set at an angle. Is this to combat the issues i am having, or am i simply bad at my technique ?