Thrustmaster T-GT Wheel Thread

[Little_Donkey]

Kids and gentleman, it's time to clear up confusion;
The T-DFB feature you're all wondering about is not simply "vibration like you'd feel on a dual shock controller". I smiled when I read a comment claiming just that in a previous post. Its laughable to think that'd be the case. There are engineers at guillemot thrustmaster that get paid close to 6 figures researching and implementing technologies such as DFB.
Dumb acronym aside, DFB is additional hardware attached at the end of the base. It's that thing that looks like a giant puck. That's called a transducer. Sort of like a speaker, but primarily produces "vibration" rather than sound, especially in the low end frequency range.
What Thrustmaster have done already exists in sim racing to a certain extent. Sim Vibe software (sim commander 4) from Sim Experience, reads telemetry from PC racing sims and converts it to a proprietary audio signal that is meant to be sent to one, or a series of, transducers. Other names for these things are called butt kickers and bass shakers. They're as cheap as 30$ and as much as 500.

So essentially the telemetry from Gran Turismo is converted to a signal that is sent to the transducer on the back of the T-GT.

I'll be doing an episode of tech drive life on YouTube covering this in more detail. (Not the wheel, just the feature and why it's good).

If you have no idea what simvibe is, or what sim experience is, I'd highly recommend you check them out first and watch the tutorial videos to get a better idea of just how significant transducers are.
In short, they add incredible immersion to any sim racing setup. By a mile, it is the most significant jump in immersion that you can do for your setup if you're sim racing on PC.

So what thrustmaster have done is something similar, except it's all sort of built in, and the transducer is attached to the wheel. -which is fine, and here's why...

When I was tinkering with butt kickers and sim vibe (sim commander 4 software) on my old 8020 rig, I tried something new. I mounted the butt kicker that was originally near the floor on my rig, and switched it to right behind the wheel, on the center rail, but still out of the way so it didn't hit my legs.
The effects I used we're typical of the "seat" mode in sim vibe, (engine rpm, road bumps, gear shift clunks, etc) - except I added some additional effects, such as speed based white noise, and road texture, etc.
The results were incredible. The wheel felt like it was attached to something alive. Bare in mind, that effect was already felt throughout the rig, but it added something even MORE when it was felt throughout the steering wheel! It sort of tricks you into thinking you're getting the most advanced and detailed force feedback ever conceived. But in reality it's a unity between two different pieces of hardware, connected in perfect sync with software.
The coolest thing it did was it "masked" any notches or imperfections in the steering sensations, no matter what wheel. It masked the harsh spikey feedback from the osw when MMOs ran with low filter settings. It masked the notchy belt ridges that you can feel when turning the TS-PC. The effects felt through the wheel are what make you feel the illusion of smoothness. Once I discovered this little bit of knowledge, I always ran a buttkickers or bass shaker close to the wheel and programmed a proper preset in sim commander software.

Sorry to run on there, but the main point is, the transducer on the back of the T-GT is MUCH more than a glorified "rumble pack." I heard great impressions from those who have tried it with GT sport.
But since the DFB feature is only available when playing GT Sport, it's potential to be tweaked and explored by the end user in a PC sim is sadly lost unless thrustmaster decide to make that someday available, if it's even possible.

Thanks for the good explanation. Indeed it feels like a transducer with simvibe. Do you know if you can turn up the volume?

 

[Bjorn Lucas]

i got this wheel now for 3weeks and its realy great. very smooth, very quik and very very strong. first time i felt what stall force means you have to adjust your driving style, taked me arround 3 days.... you realy have to grab it strong, its soo fast in turning i had a t500rs before, the small 28" rim is a little disadvantage, i like more the t500 rim, but no problem you can switch the rims as you like

best expirience so far is with assetto corsa, awesome! forza7 dont work yet(no ff) and gt sport works very well, but sadly there is no noticable diffrence between gt and normal modus, so nothing with mysterius effects. but this is gt-gimmik is unimportant, the wheel has such great power and is smooth and precize. you dont want play any other wheel again

btw, you can easy remove the big gt logo, just 4 little screws

buyed it here in germany, brakemod was included.

does this wheel work on a xboxone ?? or did you try it with forza 7 on a pc??

 

[F Inferno]

Kids and gentleman, it's time to clear up confusion;
The T-DFB feature you're all wondering about is not simply "vibration like you'd feel on a dual shock controller". I smiled when I read a comment claiming just that in a previous post. Its laughable to think that'd be the case. There are engineers at guillemot thrustmaster that get paid close to 6 figures researching and implementing technologies such as DFB.
Dumb acronym aside, DFB is additional hardware attached at the end of the base. It's that thing that looks like a giant puck. That's called a transducer. Sort of like a speaker, but primarily produces "vibration" rather than sound, especially in the low end frequency range.
What Thrustmaster have done already exists in sim racing to a certain extent. Sim Vibe software (sim commander 4) from Sim Experience, reads telemetry from PC racing sims and converts it to a proprietary audio signal that is meant to be sent to one, or a series of, transducers. Other names for these things are called butt kickers and bass shakers. They're as cheap as 30$ and as much as 500.

So essentially the telemetry from Gran Turismo is converted to a signal that is sent to the transducer on the back of the T-GT.

I'll be doing an episode of tech drive life on YouTube covering this in more detail. (Not the wheel, just the feature and why it's good).

If you have no idea what simvibe is, or what sim experience is, I'd highly recommend you check them out first and watch the tutorial videos to get a better idea of just how significant transducers are.
In short, they add incredible immersion to any sim racing setup. By a mile, it is the most significant jump in immersion that you can do for your setup if you're sim racing on PC.

So what thrustmaster have done is something similar, except it's all sort of built in, and the transducer is attached to the wheel. -which is fine, and here's why...

When I was tinkering with butt kickers and sim vibe (sim commander 4 software) on my old 8020 rig, I tried something new. I mounted the butt kicker that was originally near the floor on my rig, and switched it to right behind the wheel, on the center rail, but still out of the way so it didn't hit my legs.
The effects I used we're typical of the "seat" mode in sim vibe, (engine rpm, road bumps, gear shift clunks, etc) - except I added some additional effects, such as speed based white noise, and road texture, etc.
The results were incredible. The wheel felt like it was attached to something alive. Bare in mind, that effect was already felt throughout the rig, but it added something even MORE when it was felt throughout the steering wheel! It sort of tricks you into thinking you're getting the most advanced and detailed force feedback ever conceived. But in reality it's a unity between two different pieces of hardware, connected in perfect sync with software.
The coolest thing it did was it "masked" any notches or imperfections in the steering sensations, no matter what wheel. It masked the harsh spikey feedback from the osw when MMOs ran with low filter settings. It masked the notchy belt ridges that you can feel when turning the TS-PC. The effects felt through the wheel are what make you feel the illusion of smoothness. Once I discovered this little bit of knowledge, I always ran a buttkickers or bass shaker close to the wheel and programmed a proper preset in sim commander software.

Sorry to run on there, but the main point is, the transducer on the back of the T-GT is MUCH more than a glorified "rumble pack." I heard great impressions from those who have tried it with GT sport.
But since the DFB feature is only available when playing GT Sport, it's potential to be tweaked and explored by the end user in a PC sim is sadly lost unless thrustmaster decide to make that someday available, if it's even possible.

What you are describing though is not good feedback. You're basically saying it's good because it numbs the other forces by throwing more vibration at you so that you can't tell what is going on.

In reality you don't feel those forces through the wheel but through your body which is why it should be attached to the seat for those particular effects. Some people will like it just like all the fake FFB effects through the wheel but it is not realistic. Personally too many effects especially in the wrong place completely breaks immersion.

That being said the fact it only works in one game makes it almost worthless anyway unless you only play GTS.

 

[PocketZeven]

Kids and gentleman, it's time to clear up confusion;
The T-DFB feature you're all wondering about is not simply "vibration like you'd feel on a dual shock controller". I smiled when I read a comment claiming just that in a previous post. Its laughable to think that'd be the case. There are engineers at guillemot thrustmaster that get paid close to 6 figures researching and implementing technologies such as DFB.
Dumb acronym aside, DFB is additional hardware attached at the end of the base. It's that thing that looks like a giant puck. That's called a transducer. Sort of like a speaker, but primarily produces "vibration" rather than sound, especially in the low end frequency range.
What Thrustmaster have done already exists in sim racing to a certain extent. Sim Vibe software (sim commander 4) from Sim Experience, reads telemetry from PC racing sims and converts it to a proprietary audio signal that is meant to be sent to one, or a series of, transducers. Other names for these things are called butt kickers and bass shakers. They're as cheap as 30$ and as much as 500.

So essentially the telemetry from Gran Turismo is converted to a signal that is sent to the transducer on the back of the T-GT.

I'll be doing an episode of tech drive life on YouTube covering this in more detail. (Not the wheel, just the feature and why it's good).

If you have no idea what simvibe is, or what sim experience is, I'd highly recommend you check them out first and watch the tutorial videos to get a better idea of just how significant transducers are.
In short, they add incredible immersion to any sim racing setup. By a mile, it is the most significant jump in immersion that you can do for your setup if you're sim racing on PC.

So what thrustmaster have done is something similar, except it's all sort of built in, and the transducer is attached to the wheel. -which is fine, and here's why...

When I was tinkering with butt kickers and sim vibe (sim commander 4 software) on my old 8020 rig, I tried something new. I mounted the butt kicker that was originally near the floor on my rig, and switched it to right behind the wheel, on the center rail, but still out of the way so it didn't hit my legs.
The effects I used we're typical of the "seat" mode in sim vibe, (engine rpm, road bumps, gear shift clunks, etc) - except I added some additional effects, such as speed based white noise, and road texture, etc.
The results were incredible. The wheel felt like it was attached to something alive. Bare in mind, that effect was already felt throughout the rig, but it added something even MORE when it was felt throughout the steering wheel! It sort of tricks you into thinking you're getting the most advanced and detailed force feedback ever conceived. But in reality it's a unity between two different pieces of hardware, connected in perfect sync with software.
The coolest thing it did was it "masked" any notches or imperfections in the steering sensations, no matter what wheel. It masked the harsh spikey feedback from the osw when MMOs ran with low filter settings. It masked the notchy belt ridges that you can feel when turning the TS-PC. The effects felt through the wheel are what make you feel the illusion of smoothness. Once I discovered this little bit of knowledge, I always ran a buttkickers or bass shaker close to the wheel and programmed a proper preset in sim commander software.

Sorry to run on there, but the main point is, the transducer on the back of the T-GT is MUCH more than a glorified "rumble pack." I heard great impressions from those who have tried it with GT sport.
But since the DFB feature is only available when playing GT Sport, it's potential to be tweaked and explored by the end user in a PC sim is sadly lost unless thrustmaster decide to make that someday available, if it's even possible.

I already knew it is a transducer, but is it worth the large price tag and getting it over loadcell pedals? Right know I’m tempted getting the csl elite over the transducer, because some suggest the function is nothing more then a gimmick. Not adding a lot to the experience.

 

[highlifeGT]

Get the CSL Elite then dude. ALWAYS trust your gut instinct. Lol. Not sure why anyone would go on GT Planet forums looking for buying advice. I'll just assume that in this instance, many of your are simply researching out of interest.
As far as price goes on the T-GT, trust me I'm hung up on the $800 price as much as anyone else.

 

[highlifeGT]

What you are describing though is not good feedback. You're basically saying it's good because it numbs the other forces by throwing more vibration at you so that you can't tell what is going on.

In reality you don't feel those forces through the wheel but through your body which is why it should be attached to the seat for those particular effects. Some people will like it just like all the fake FFB effects through the wheel but it is not realistic. Personally too many effects especially in the wrong place completely breaks immersion.

That being said the fact it only works in one game makes it almost worthless anyway unless you only play GTS.

All very much valid points that I agree with. It doesn't numb the forces though. It just numbs the notches. The notchy sensations can be distracting for some people. Everyone is different.

Also bare in mind there really is no "should" or "shouldn't" with this sort of stuff. It's all at the discression of the individual. There's definitely some cars out there where you can feel alot of vibrations on the wheel...and there's others where you wouldn't. It's silly to think anyone would be so rigid. I don't turn off sim vibe just because I'm driving a "production car" like an mx5 in iracing. Am I getting way more sensations from the steering wheel than in a real life mx5? Sure. Does this devalue or ruin the experience for me? NOPE! LOL. Makes it a hell of a lot better in fact.

 

[highlifeGT]

Thanks for the good explanation. Indeed it feels like a transducer with simvibe. Do you know if you can turn up the volume?

That'd be nice, but I'm not sure. John Sabol will have a T-GT review up on ISRTV in the coming weeks.

 

[highlifeGT]

does this wheel work on a xboxone ?? or did you try it with forza 7 on a pc??

No it does not sir, but you'll be happy to know that the there's an Xbox version of this wheel without the transducer attached, and it's 200$ less, and has a real sparco rim on it! Yay!

 

[F Inferno]

All very much valid points that I agree with. It doesn't numb the forces though. It just numbs the notches. The notchy sensations can be distracting for some people. Everyone is different.

Also bare in mind there really is no "should" or "shouldn't" with this sort of stuff. It's all at the discression of the individual. There's definitely some cars out there where you can feel alot of vibrations on the wheel...and there's others where you wouldn't. It's silly to think anyone would be so rigid. I don't turn off sim vibe just because I'm driving a "production car" like an mx5 in iracing. Am I getting way more sensations from the steering wheel than in a real life mx5? Sure. Does this devalue or ruin the experience for me? NOPE! LOL. Makes it a hell of a lot better in fact.

Well I disagree, if you are aiming for realism then there definitely is a right or wrong, just like picture settings on a TV, you can adjust them to your personal liking but anything that deviates from the actual standards will give an inaccurate image. I still find it strange when people adjust FFB per car to make them all feel the same.

Of course it's fine not to care about those things and just set it up how you want if that gives the person more enjoyment!

Like I say though when I played with some of the settings in simvibe and things were vibrating that I didn't think should be or the road texture which vibrated constantly and I also felt was wrong it pulled me out of the experience. Though the same also happened in reverse, I tried SSW trial before I bought simvibe and got no vibration from rumble strips and all bumps produced the same frequency which also felt completely wrong.

Maybe a moot point though since the telemetry for transducers probably feels nothing like each car given it will just be generic and I have no idea what a race car feels like!

 

[PocketZeven]

Get the CSL Elite then dude. ALWAYS trust your gut instinct. Lol. Not sure why anyone would go on GT Planet forums looking for buying advice. I'll just assume that in this instance, many of your are simply researching out of interest.
As far as price goes on the T-GT, trust me I'm hung up on the $800 price as much as anyone else.

I personally looking for advice from people who have experience with the hardware for GT and ps4 specifically. A lot of sim forums are mostly dominated by PC users. This is the only forum for that. I have some time since the Formula rim is out of stock till the end of December.

 

[LotusTeam]

Hi guys how about the FFB wear off / fatigue problem in T300? Would it still be a problem now in new T-GT?

 

[skazz]

Hi guys how about the FFB wear off / fatigue problem in T300? Would it still be a problem now in new T-GT?

Supposedly not because the design of the T-GT (and TS-PC) has a fan actually built into the motor itself which cools it well enough that there is no noticeable fade.

 

[super_gt]

Supposedly not because the design of the T-GT (and TS-PC) has a fan actually built into the motor itself which cools it well enough that there is no noticeable fade.

And the power supply is out of the base.

Hi guys how about the FFB wear off / fatigue problem in T300? Would it still be a problem now in new T-GT?

 

[thefraggle]

As a heads up my T-GT has developed a fault within 8 hours of use over a day and a half.
The throttle pedal no longer works. TM are sending me out a new pedal set. It's still a crap situation though.

 

[highlifeGT]

Well I disagree, if you are aiming for realism then there definitely is a right or wrong, just like picture settings on a TV, you can adjust them to your personal liking but anything that deviates from the actual standards will give an inaccurate image.

Actually your analogy makes no sense at all. Calibrating a TV requires equipment, and can be measured accurately. There's also an established testing procedure/s to do it, and it's been done for years, decades.
Where as with sim vibe and transducers, there's no system in place to certify that your settings are the most "accurate" and its obsurd anyone should get so hung up on the validity of the settings, considering there's no universal standard, no equipment to measure (unless you were measuring your rig's resonant frequencies, which still doesn't give you a reference to reality), no way to A/B to the real thing. -not to mention the simple fact that a vast majority of sim racers ( id wager including yourself) have never been in the real life counterpart of the car they're in. I'm fortunate enough to have a friend who tests for LMS and a few other teams running GT cup cars. He came over and we tweaked a few settings, but the ones I had dialed in he generally liked. You didn't hear him saying "this is way off" or "that doesn't feel right" or "the settings are wrong." He understands the underlying concept of sim vibe.
The people who've actually done this sort of "reality vs sim" measurement are sim experience). They designed the program to transfer telemetry to transducers while attempting to be somewhat accurate in how it is conveyed. Whether or not you agree if the rpm's or road bumps are too loud or soft is subjective to your preferences. The "default settings" are there to give you a baseline. Unless you have absolutely no idea what you're doing, there will be some "realism" added when you adjust them to your liking, because what feels right to you, makes your mind believe you're immersed. You can go watch direct drive life episodes 1 and 2 on YouTube if you'd like to see the commentary regarding this.

 

[Tone_GTR]

if anyone wants here is a 25% discount code, You have to buy direct from Thrustmaster.

I Just happened to come across this from someone i follow on Twitch.. So all Kudos to him!

Code: actrollvision25

 

[PocketZeven]

if anyone wants here is a 25% discount code, You have to buy direct from Thrustmaster.

I Just happened to come across this from someone i follow on Twitch.. So all Kudos to him!

Code: actrollvision25

I didn’t use it, but i can confirm it works in the Dutch thrustmaster webshop! You can get T-GT for € 599,-! Thanks! I’m going to go Fanatec anyways.

 

[LotusTeam]

Having watched tons of reviews on YouTube but I still can't decide whether I should go for T-GT or Fanatec CSL Elite, could u guys give me some insights on this? (Let's forget the price difference and I play console very often than on PC)

 

[Racetee]

I already knew it is a transducer, but is it worth the large price tag and getting it over loadcell pedals? Right know I’m tempted getting the csl elite over the transducer, because some suggest the function is nothing more then a gimmick. Not adding a lot to the experience.

The problem here is that you are paying extra for the work and hardware that is only usable with one game. If you buy another wheel, that money goes (or you save it) towards the general quality of the product which you will experience with any game.

On the other hand, if you are a hardcore GT fan and plan to play GTS long term, then T-GT might give you more.

 

[SazukaRacer]

After much consideration I’ve chosen to go for the T-GT over the CSL elite. I’m mostly going to use it for GT (if not solely) and the messages on the Fanatec blog just give me the feeling of disappointment (when played with the CSL elite).

I was basically just looking to get the best wheel for GT, and so far it seems that the T-GT is that wheel. Perhaps it will change down the line with patches but I cannot wait that long. Also with the 25% off it’s €100 cheaper than the CSL Elite with LC Brake + shipping.

 

[PocketZeven]

Having watched tons of reviews on YouTube but I still can't decide whether I should go for T-GT or Fanatec CSL Elite, could u guys give me some insights on this? (Let's forget the price difference and I play console very often than on PC)

I’m probably going to go for fanatec after careful consideration. Here is why:

Thrustmaster T-GT
Pro:
- plug & play
- transducer
- 100% GT compatible
- lots of buttons
Con:
- just t3pa pedals, no Loadcell
- smaller rim
- don’t like f1 rim addon (€170,-)
- thrustmaster quality control
- only 599 rim interesting in ecosystem
- don’t like long throw TH8
- transducer only support 1 game

Fanatec CSL elite
Pro:
- loadcell brake
- nice large p1 rim
- like that f1 rim (€ 229,-)
- high end shifter
- larger ecosystem (handbrake, rims, pedals)
- customization menu
- smoother
Con:
- customer service a little bit slow
- no 100% support for GT sport yet
- no transducer

I currently own a g29 so I know what to expect from the t3pa pedals. I only game on ps4 so my only option to upgrade the pedals to LC is either mod or going Fanatec. I hear great things about fanatec pedals.

 

[Mad1723]

The Fanatec pedals will make you faster. A loadcell transforms your braking. It's an adaptation, you have to relearn how you approach braking, but you will end up being more constant and more easily trail brake.

 

[PocketZeven]

The Fanatec pedals will make you faster. A loadcell transforms your braking. It's an adaptation, you have to relearn how you approach braking, but you will end up being more constant and more easily trail brake.

That’s the main reason to go for fanatec I guess. More of an upgrade from G29.

 

[PocketZeven]

After much consideration I’ve chosen to go for the T-GT over the CSL elite. I’m mostly going to use it for GT (if not solely) and the messages on the Fanatec blog just give me the feeling of disappointment (when played with the CSL elite).

I was basically just looking to get the best wheel for GT, and so far it seems that the T-GT is that wheel. Perhaps it will change down the line with patches but I cannot wait that long. Also with the 25% off it’s €100 cheaper than the CSL Elite with LC Brake + shipping.

Let us know your impressions when you receive it! I’m going to use the wheel also for project cars 2, that’s why I’m disappointed in the GT sport only feature.

 

[SazukaRacer]

Let us know your impressions when you receive it! I’m going to use the wheel also for project cars 2, that’s why I’m disappointed in the GT sport only feature.

Will do!

Let me know how the CSL is as well! Will start saving up for a CPX Adapter and ClubSports Pedals v3 pedals now, that should work with the T-GT.

 

[PocketZeven]

Will do!

Let me know how the CSL is as well! Will start saving up for a CPX Adapter and ClubSports Pedals v3 pedals now, that should work with the T-GT.

The fanatec f1 rim is backordered till 19-12-2017. So I have plenty of time to change my mind.. but at the moment I’m set on csl. Hopefully project cars 2 and GT sport will be fully patched. The same for t-GT. Don’t know it fully supports project cars 2 yet.

 

[Marky264]

Nightmare from Amazon UK getting this to me. Was a Day Late after Release was not happy.

But soon as It arrived all set up. And within one evening of using the It the T3PGT Pedals are now faulty. I used the Tool to move the Pedals as they are quite close together as the Brake Pad has no moveable like the other two pedals It's fixed in one place. But the Screw broke off and the Pad is now permanently in place. Honestly Thrustmaster to not Include the T3PA Pro's in this Package is a bit of a crime as the Pedals are not great quality and feel exactly the same as the T300RS GT's T3PA's.

On It's way back to Return for a Refund for me to re-evaluate If I got for the CSL Elite Wheel for PS4 or back to a T500RS which has been my most reliable wheel. Very difficult to choose. Or even go for the Set again & eBay the T3PGT's & Opt for the T3PA Pro's Separately.

I have the say though the Servo base & GT Rim are a dream to use. The Wheel & Vibrations are a dream and It feels so connected to the road unlike any other rim for Gran Turismo Sport. This Wheel has a Sport Mode specifically for Gran Turismo so If you are Intending on purchasing this then do so with a warning on the Pedals. And Just eBay the T3PGT's & Go for the T3PA Pro's. Problem Solved!

 

[Tone_GTR]

Nightmare from Amazon UK getting this to me. Was a Day Late after Release was not happy.

But soon as It arrived all set up. And within one evening of using the It the T3PGT Pedals are now faulty. I used the Tool to move the Pedals as they are quite close together as the Brake Pad has no moveable like the other two pedals It's fixed in one place. But the Screw broke off and the Pad is now permanently in place. Honestly Thrustmaster to not Include the T3PA Pro's in this Package is a bit of a crime as the Pedals are not great quality and feel exactly the same as the T300RS GT's T3PA's.

On It's way back to Return for a Refund for me to re-evaluate If I got for the CSL Elite Wheel for PS4 or back to a T500RS which has been my most reliable wheel. Very difficult to choose. Or even go for the Set again & eBay the T3PGT's & Opt for the T3PA Pro's Separately.

I have the say though the Servo base & GT Rim are a dream to use. The Wheel & Vibrations are a dream and It feels so connected to the road unlike any other rim for Gran Turismo Sport. This Wheel has a Sport Mode specifically for Gran Turismo so If you are Intending on purchasing this then do so with a warning on the Pedals. And Just eBay the T3PGT's & Go for the T3PA Pro's. Problem Solved!

I also got this wheel, but also bought the Pro pedals and the Thrustmaster Shifter, I am just keeping the original pedals as a spare incase i need them

 

[PocketZeven]

I also got this wheel, but also bought the Pro pedals and the Thrustmaster Shifter, I am just keeping the original pedals as a spare incase i need them

So what are your impressions of the t-dfb feature?

 

[Tone_GTR]

So what are your impressions of the t-dfb feature?

Makes a whole lot of difference! can feel more of what the car is doing.. and apparently this feature will only work with GT Sport, i think not.. its only a matter of time till someone hacks the thrustmaster drivers on the PC to take advantage of it, hell.. thrustmaster might even do it themselves at some point, console included.