- 404
- Indianapolis, I
To add to what littleregret265 said, 10-bit is good, 12-bit is better, 16-bit is even better yet.
The T500, TX, and T300 all have 16-bit resolution, so the T150 will be as good as the rest of the T-series wheels.
Thrustmaster T150/TMX Force Feedback Racing Wheels
- Thread starter super_gt
- 385 comments
- 204,528 views
To add to what littleregret265 said, 10-bit is good, 12-bit is better, 16-bit is even better yet.
The T500, TX, and T300 all have 16-bit resolution, so the T150 will be as good as the rest of the T-series wheels.
- 508
- United States
LOL! I gathered that by the price points, what I'm looking for is a detailed explanation of how it all works, Relation of Bit resolution to Value would be a good starting point. so we can calculate how much better or precision is the T300 compared to the T150, because I'm really teetering between which of the two will I make my next wheel, is the T300 really worth the extra $200.00, because if it is just a matter of modular wheel add-ons capability, then I'm really leaning toward the T150, I've sent an email inquiry to Thrustmaster, still waiting, I will post when they respond.
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
To be more direct, the T150 will have the exact same resolution (16-bit) as the T300 (and T500, and TX).
A wheel with 8-bit resolution will have 256 "steps" from zero to full-scale (2 to the power of 8).
A wheel with 16-bit resolution will have 65,536 "steps" from zero to full-scale (2 to the power of 16), therefore, the output will be much "finer," less "granular," and more "smooth" than a wheel with 8-bit resolution.
This visualization might help (just imagine a lot more zeros to work with on the horizontal axis with 16-bit resolution):
By my estimation, the T150 will have the same resolution (and thus accuracy) as the T500, T300, and TX. What will differ is the FFB strength and probably responsiveness/detail. The belt/gear system on the T150 will be very nice, if it's like the F430 Force mechanism (I thought that compared very well to my T500), but the TX/T300/T500 will all be more powerful, and the FFB on the TX and T300 (which are both smoother but a little less powerful than the T500) will be somewhat smoother, more direct, and more powerful than the T150.
Overall, I'm guessing the T150 is going to be a REAL surprise (the pleasant kind).
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Are you sure @JohnBodin? The site says the T150 has 12 bit resolution.
- 393
- Bulgaria
- drandiiski
It clearly says that the T150 has a 12bit sensor with 4096 values versus the T300/TX/500 that has a 16bit with 65,536 values, so I don’t know what all the confusion is about.
- 3,977
- Netherlands
- skazz-race
- skazzracer
The math is easy enough... If full rotation is 1080 degrees, and you have 4096 values to depict this, then you effectively have 4 data points per degree turned. If you have 65k data points for 1080 degrees then you have 60 data points per degree turned.
Now personally I find it hard to turn a wheel by a fraction of a degree, so 4 data points per degree doesn't sound too bad.
Now personally I find it hard to turn a wheel by a fraction of a degree, so 4 data points per degree doesn't sound too bad.
- 508
- United States
That sounds very logical @skazz So that means 1080° divided by 4096 Axis values so there is 3.8 Data Points per degree in 1080°, So that means since 360° goes into 1080° 3 times, multiply 3.8 times 3 to get this 360° graphs data points 3.8x3=11.4 data points per degree in a 360° rotation in the T150. THAT IS FANTASTIC!
So how does the bit resolution factor in, is it the speed at which the sensor reads the data or what??
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I see a lot of wonky math here but @skazz has the right answer.
T300-65K data points across 1080 degrees
But what does this mean in terms of the accuracy of the wheel? Nothing. A 12" diameter wheel has roughly 37.68" of circumference or about 132" in 3.5 rotations. On the T150 then, each data point of resolution represents about 0.03 inches of rotation or 1/33 of an inch or 0.8mm. If you can turn the wheel accurately, at speed, less than 0.8mm at a time, then the T300 will be more accurate for you. You can't, so there's no difference. Remember too that there is a steering ratio as well. At 12:1 that means that 0.8mm of wheel rotation translates to ..07mm of motion at the front wheel. That's 1/14th of a mm.
This is one of those marketing things that sounds like a big deal but it's not. We're talking microscopic levels of change in resolution. You could go to a billion points of resolution and you won't see any difference.
T150-4096 data points across 1080 degrees
T300-65K data points across 1080 degrees
But what does this mean in terms of the accuracy of the wheel? Nothing. A 12" diameter wheel has roughly 37.68" of circumference or about 132" in 3.5 rotations. On the T150 then, each data point of resolution represents about 0.03 inches of rotation or 1/33 of an inch or 0.8mm. If you can turn the wheel accurately, at speed, less than 0.8mm at a time, then the T300 will be more accurate for you. You can't, so there's no difference. Remember too that there is a steering ratio as well. At 12:1 that means that 0.8mm of wheel rotation translates to ..07mm of motion at the front wheel. That's 1/14th of a mm.
This is one of those marketing things that sounds like a big deal but it's not. We're talking microscopic levels of change in resolution. You could go to a billion points of resolution and you won't see any difference.
- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
Yup, and the other part is: can the software actually digest the full 16-bit resolution? Unless we are talking about the most extreme of physics engines probably not found in the games we're playing at home, it is mostly marketing. (unless someone can prove this wrong with evidence of a game calculating that deep of course)
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Excellent point. Does anyone know what the various sims output in terms of resolution?
- 404
- Indianapolis, I
Oops -- my bad! I mis-read the post on the previous page that says the T300 has 16-bit resolution, and the T150 will have 12-bit.
Still, all things considered, that's 4096 "steps," which is still considerably better than 8- or 10-bit resolution. Consider that all of the custom USB adapters from gaming gurus like Derek Speare and Leo Bodnar are "just" 12-bit boards, which is pretty much the industry standard.
Consider also that the stock pedal resolution on the G25/G27 is just 8-bits (1024 "steps"), and that the Bodnar Cable increases the resolution to 10-bit, and this is a significant improvement over the stock G25/G27 pedal resolution. Given that, 12-bit resolution isn't anything to sneeze at.
That said, though, this means that the T300, TX, and T500 will all be a bit more precise than the T150, so this probably puts the T150 in the same "precision" category as the G25/G27/DFGT wheels, which is more than sufficient for most people (lots of world records have been set using those wheels).
- 6,511
- Shropshire
- IfAndOr
It's a moot point since as everyone says, the resolution is more than sufficient for the games it will be used on. But the official blurb says...
"optical position reading with 12-bit resolution (4096 values on the wheel’s steering axis)"
Now I could be wrong here, but If the encoder is on the wheels rotational axis surely the 4096 points are measured through one turn, 360°, not the full 1080°. Further turns of the wheel just continue from point zero again - which it finds when it first calibrates.
This would make it even more accurate than mentioned before.
Whatever, it seems a decent wheel and I'm certainly interested in it. I'm hoping the slightly simpler technology will make it more reliable.
"optical position reading with 12-bit resolution (4096 values on the wheel’s steering axis)"
Now I could be wrong here, but If the encoder is on the wheels rotational axis surely the 4096 points are measured through one turn, 360°, not the full 1080°. Further turns of the wheel just continue from point zero again - which it finds when it first calibrates.
This would make it even more accurate than mentioned before.
Whatever, it seems a decent wheel and I'm certainly interested in it. I'm hoping the slightly simpler technology will make it more reliable.
- 4,926
- Bulgaria
T150 has 11'' diameter which is 87,96 cm. circumference x 3(1080 degrees is 3 rotations) 263.89cm:4096=0,64mm.
Sorry Johnny I could not resist
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 508
- United States
Thanx Guys for all of your help!!
I think I get it now,
So that means 1080° divided by 4096 Axis values so there is 4 Data Points per degree in 1080°, So that means since 360° goes into 1080° 3 times, multiply 4 times 3 to get this 360° graphs data points 4x3=12 data points per degree in a 360° rotation in the T150. THAT IS FANTASTIC More precision than I can drive!
And the Bit Resolution is the vertical measurement equivalent to the Horizontal Value measurement
So How many people use the F1 Add-On Wheel,
and do you think it is worth the extra $350.00 total for the T300RS+ The Ferrari F1 Add-On? For me this is going to be the deciding factor of getting the T300RS or T150RS, Because I thought it would be cool to run F1, LMP and DTM races with this wheel.
I think I get it now,
So that means 1080° divided by 4096 Axis values so there is 4 Data Points per degree in 1080°, So that means since 360° goes into 1080° 3 times, multiply 4 times 3 to get this 360° graphs data points 4x3=12 data points per degree in a 360° rotation in the T150. THAT IS FANTASTIC More precision than I can drive!And the Bit Resolution is the vertical measurement equivalent to the Horizontal Value measurement
So How many people use the F1 Add-On Wheel,
and do you think it is worth the extra $350.00 total for the T300RS+ The Ferrari F1 Add-On? For me this is going to be the deciding factor of getting the T300RS or T150RS, Because I thought it would be cool to run F1, LMP and DTM races with this wheel.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I think the whole Bodnar cable resolution bump is mostly marketing too. If the resolution on the brake is the same as the throttle in the stock G27, it's more than enough for what we're doing with it. I impressed my friends in GT6 by using the throttle on my G27 to increase the speed of my car by 1 km/h just using the throttle. According to THIS, the G27 comes with 8 bit resolution, or 256 values over the 50mm (eyeballed at the pedal tip, not measured) travel. That's less than 0.2mm of pedal travel or less than 1/50th of an inch per unit of resolution. Not even the Frankenstein baby created from the genes of Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna and Jackie Stewart is that sensitive.
What the T300 will give you is greater FFB strength overall. I have a G27 and in AC and PCars you definitely have to find a trade off between the fine forces provided by curbs, tire slip, road imperfections, understeer etc. and wheel weight. You simply can't have both the way you want to. You need that detail most in the corners, which is where the wheel weight overwhelms the amount of FFB available from the G27 motors. I expect the T150 will be the same but you'll have to wait for reviews. If the motors are about the same strength as the G27 you'll be able to have a light wheel and more detail or a heavy wheel and less detail. The T300 should allow you to have both.
As far as the add-on stuff goes, it's all personal preference. If it's something you want, by all means it's worth it to have that option.
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- 508
- United States
Thanx Johnnypenso, you've given me a lot to think about, now that i know precision advantage is NOT a noticeable factor between the two wheels, I currently have a Thrustmaster T80 O FFB
, So a light FFB may be more suitable to my style, but that Wheel Add-On factor I will be mulling over until I see some reviews on Youtube. Thanx again.
Thrustmasters Reply:
Dear Mr. Haulin Hebrew, Regarding your T300 RS.
We begin by thanking you for your interest in Thrustmaster products and we are very sorry for the late reply to your query.We would like to inform you that the T150 is less accurate in terms of steering axis precision than the T300.For instance, with both wheels set to 1080 degrees, one degree of rotation of the T150 will correspond to around 4 values (4096/1080), while the T300 will have around 60 values (65536/1080) per degree of rotation. This makes the T300 more precise.Also, the rim of the T150 is not detachable.In case you have other questions, please feel free to reply to this email.
Thrustmaster Technical Support is at your disposal for any other information you may need. You can reach us online at the following addresses:
http://ts.thrustmaster.com/eng for the latest updates and FAQs
or by telephone at one of the numbers listed on the following page: http://ts.Thrustmaster.com/eng/index.php?pg=contact Kind regards, Your Thrustmaster Customer Support Agent, Emma PS: To ensure the most efficient follow-up of your query, please be sure to include the reference number [xxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxx] of your file in the subject line of any emails you may send us later on._
A little Late.
GT Planet Community 1 vs. Thrustmaster .5
I inquired about the difference in Servo motor strength between the T150 and T300 too.
Thrustmaster will probably have an response after launch date and Youtube reviews.
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- 92
- United States
- RedSwordfishGAME
Well, I'm glad this exists. I thought I was going to have to pay for a T300RS to play GT7. Funny though, the T150 looks like the cheap Intec racing wheel that I used to play "Need For Speed Underground" so many years ago:
If GT7 lets me get my car on the cover of Import Tuner magazine, it'll be the perfect nostalgia trip.
If GT7 lets me get my car on the cover of Import Tuner magazine, it'll be the perfect nostalgia trip.
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- 4,926
- Bulgaria
@skazz was right
Thrustmasters Reply:
Dear Mr. Haulin Hebrew, Regarding your T300 RS.
We begin by thanking you for your interest in Thrustmaster products and we are very sorry for the late reply to your query.We would like to inform you that the T150 is less accurate in terms of steering axis precision than the T300.For instance, with both wheels set to 1080 degrees, one degree of rotation of the T150 will correspond to around 4 values (4096/1080), while the T300 will have around 60 values (65536/1080) per degree of rotation. This makes the T300 more precise.Also, the rim of the T150 is not detachable.In case you have other questions, please feel free to reply to this email.
Thrustmaster Technical Support is at your disposal for any other information you may need. You can reach us online at the following addresses:
http://ts.thrustmaster.com/eng for the latest updates and FAQs
or by telephone at one of the numbers listed on the following page: http://ts.Thrustmaster.com/eng/index.php?pg=contact Kind regards, Your Thrustmaster Customer Support Agent, Emma PS: To ensure the most efficient follow-up of your query, please be sure to include the reference number [xxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxx] of your file in the subject line of any emails you may send us later on._
A little Late.
GT Planet Community 1 vs. Thrustmaster .5
I inquired about the difference in Servo motor strength between the T150 and T300 too.
Thrustmaster will probably have an response after launch date and Youtube reviews.
No we know for sure that these 4096 values are for the whole 1080 degree of rotation.
For me personally those 3.8 values for one degree of rotation is precise enough.This is only 0.64mm for each value,I do not think that I can feel less than one millimeter movement in the steering wheel.
Well done @Haulin_Hebrew 👍
- 830
- Australia
- Soulfresh-ACV
As much as it's states 30 September on Amazon. I betcha that they will have limited stock like T300RS, TH8A which I waited for 3 months for my TH8A. Aussie dollar where so literally close to being on par with USD back then that it was cheaper to buy it and ship from US Amazon
That was how costly it is to buy hardware in Australia.
- 2,534
- Johannesburg
- Tayeedz1
In my eyes, for a DFGT Replacement/Upgrade , it's great! An added plus too is if you want to get better pedals and a shifter, you can!
However, that leads onto the bad.... The pedals and shifter are pricey, even worth more than the wheel itself combined
I suppose you could save some buck if you find some used ones.
However, that leads onto the bad.... The pedals and shifter are pricey, even worth more than the wheel itself combined
I suppose you could save some buck if you find some used ones.
