Time for Change? (UK General Election)

[ExigeEvan]

Facebook is also full of people that join groups like this:

So to be fair, Facebook was probably accurate - it's just that half the people that pledged to vote Lib Dem were unable to do so because, on polling day, they'd managed to get trapped in their own jumpers.

Or were students that had forgot to register at their Uni address...
Or students that turned up without their ballot cards....
Or were students that turned up at 9.45pm....
Or were students that just couldn't get away from FB.

I know of all of them happening.

 

[Jondot]

Or were students that just couldn't get away from FB.

Oh dear god.

 

[Seismica]

So to be fair, Facebook was probably accurate - it's just that half the people that pledged to vote Lib Dem were unable to do so because, on polling day, they'd managed to get trapped in their own jumpers.

Not to mention the amount of people who tactically voted Labour to keep the Conservatives out. You know what? To a certain extent it worked. The Conservatives do not have a majority. I only wish more people in my constituency, including me, voted Labour instead of Lib Dem to keep the Torys out. As it stood, the Torys have a 300 seat majority here. If there was another general election in the next 12 months I can see Labour winning the seat back.

We need some form of PR. But a system where "Number of seats = Total seats in the house * Percentage of the vote" would not work.

Famine is right, with local constituencies how would it work? Reform would have to extend far beyond the manner in which our votes are counted towards representation in parliment. There has to be clear differentiation between local government and national government.

 

[Touring Mars]

Gordon Brown has just announced that he is to step down as leader of the Labour party, while remaining as PM until presumably either a coalition is formed or the leadership contest within the Labour Party is settled. It seems like the only reasonable course of action available to him, but it could make a Lib Dem - Tory deal more unlikely, and raises the chances of a new general election being called but with someone else (Harriet Harman, David/Ed Miliband, The Ballses?) in charge...

Pretty comical really... three men stand for election* and the probable outcome is that none of them become the next PM, but someone else completely! (* of course, they didn't really, since it's not a presidential election, but the potential outcome is still rather bizarre!)

 

[Dotini]

Gordon Brown has just announced that he is to step down as leader of the Labour party, while remaining as PM until presumably either a coalition is formed or the leadership contest within the Labour Party is settled. It seems like the only reasonable course of action available to him, but it could make a Lib Dem - Tory deal more unlikely, and raises the chances of a new general election being called but with someone else (Harriet Harman, David/Ed Miliband, The Ballses?) in charge...

Pretty comical really... three men stand for election* and the probable outcome is that none of them become the next PM, but someone else completely! (* of course, they didn't really, since it's not a presidential election, but the potential outcome is still rather bizarre!)

Would you say this borders on any kind of crisis or traumatic situation for the British people?

 

[Sphinx]

Finally, the smoke screen is lifting.

This is getting very interesting.

Game on.

 

[Touring Mars]

Would you say this borders on any kind of crisis or traumatic situation for the British people?

No, I don't think there is any feeling of anxiety outwith the stock exchange... actually, I think the British people are probably quite enjoying a situation where no-one is in charge, and that the politicians are being forced to consider working together. The main concern for me is purely ergonomic... with the House of Commons designed specifically to allow the PM to face the leader of the loyal opposition across the dispatch box, what happens when we move away from the old style of confrontational politics, and towards a coalition of happy joyfulness? At the very least, they'll need to make the chamber slightly more circular than before, or perhaps triangular. My other chief concern is what will happen to the tabloid media if Balls wins the Labour leadership contest and becomes PM. I think they might self-implode in a fit of unbridled pun-writing ecstasy.

 

[Ardius]

Would you say this borders on any kind of crisis or traumatic situation for the British people?

Traumatic? Crisis?

Only silly people get confused by the fact we don't elect our leader. Our elections have always been about electing a local MP to run our constituencey according to what their local and national policies are as a party. Who each party decides to use as their spokesperson (which is all a party leader is really) is largely irrelevant.
I don't get why people cared so much about Brown taking over from Blair and not being elected to do so by the nation, it should always be about the party and its policies, not the personality or the face of the party. We didn't technically vote Blair in either - we voted in Labour who had chosen Blair as their leader. Labour were totally within their right to change their leader, as they are now.
Its about the group, not the individual, and it should stay that way.

If people have been voting based solely on the personalities of Brown, Clegg and Cameron, they have been very silly indeed.

 

[ExigeEvan]

No new laws for a little longer perhaps? I can live with that

 

[Sphinx]

Traumatic? Crisis?

Only silly people get confused by the fact we don't elect our leader. Our elections have always been about electing a local MP to run our constituencey according to what their local and national policies are as a party. Who each party decides to use as their spokesperson (which is all a party leader is really) is largely irrelevant.
I don't get why people cared so much about Brown taking over from Blair and not being elected to do so by the nation, it should always be about the party and its policies, not the personality or the face of the party. We didn't technically vote Blair in either - we voted in Labour who had chosen Blair as their leader. Labour were totally within their right to change their leader, as they are now.
Its about the group, not the individual, and it should stay that way.

If people have been voting based solely on the personalities of Brown, Clegg and Cameron, they have been very silly indeed.

Amen, but Just wait for the Tories to start screeming blue murder and saying the exact opposite. In fact, One Tory MP just said it live on the BBC, but only to shot down by an SNP MP by telling him that "this isn't a presidential race".

 

[Sureboss]

Absolutely, if someone like Miliband (he's my bet for next Lab leader) is PM, it really doesn't matter. He is a representative of the party and will be voted in by the party members. It's just completely irrelevant in our system.

Interesting developments today, to me it says that the Lib/Con talks have fallen down and they've said, "If he goes we'll talk." We'll have another election within a year.

 

[Touring Mars]

The quest to document Brown's legacy has already begun in earnest - someone has already produced a website that contains a comprehensive list of all of Gordon Brown's likable traits, here.

 

[Sphinx]

The quest to document Brown's legacy has already begun in earnest - someone has already produced a website that contains a comprehensive list of all of Gordon Brown's likable traits, here.

👍

Daily Mail comments section is the place to be right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1276579/Gordon-Brown-sacrifices-promises-quit-PM-ditch-bid-deal-Lib-Dems.html

 

[ExigeEvan]

👍

Daily Mail comments section is the place to be right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1276579/Gordon-Brown-sacrifices-promises-quit-PM-ditch-bid-deal-Lib-Dems.html

Reading Daily Mail comments are just painful.

Cameron won, Cameron should go it alone. Well that's great and all until he tries to do something.

 

[Sureboss]

The attempts of the Daily Mail scum at trying to type something remotely coherent is quite impressive.

 

[Jondot]

Interesting developments today, to me it says that the Lib/Con talks have fallen down and they've said, "If he goes we'll talk." We'll have another election within a year.

Seems a bit strange to me. Have I not been paying attention - is Gordon really that bad? Personally I'm not relishing the idea of Balls (there's a joke in there somewhere), so why the pressure to make Brown go away? I thought he and Nick were getting along like a house on fire...

Maybe Clegg doesn't like being agreed with.

The quest to document Brown's legacy has already begun in earnest - someone has already produced a website that contains a comprehensive list of all of Gordon Brown's likable traits, here.

You cruel, cruel man

 

[Sphinx]

The attempts of the Daily Mail scum at trying to type something remotely coherent is quite impressive.

To be fair, the Sun comments are worser

 

[Seismica]

Seems a bit strange to me. Have I not been paying attention - is Gordon really that bad? Personally I'm not relishing the idea of Balls (there's a joke in there somewhere), so why the pressure to make Brown go away? I thought he and Nick were getting along like a house on fire...

Not really. He's a strong and resilient leader. He has done wonders with negotiations on the international stage.

His charisma is his biggest weakness, and charisma is very important for the Public's perception of the man.

If Barrack Obama had no charisma do people honestly believe he would be anywhere near as popular?

 

[Ardius]

Seems a bit strange to me. Have I not been paying attention - is Gordon really that bad? Personally I'm not relishing the idea of Balls (there's a joke in there somewhere), so why the pressure to make Brown go away? I thought he and Nick were getting along like a house on fire...

Maybe Clegg doesn't like being agreed with.

No, we don't want Labour, Labour is the one that has been in for 13 years and personally that is why I wanted them out. I like the idea of keeping the government fresh and on their toes, Labour have had their time now and its time for someone else to run the country.

It is nothing to do with Brown, though his uncharasmatic personality hasn't helped Labour's campaign certainly. Like I said earlier, its irrelevant who the leaders are - we are not voting for the leaders.

 

[Sphinx]

During my daily round of reading what papers are saying, be them left, right or whatever, I came across this little beauty:

Richard Littlejohn's (Daily Mail) take on yesterday's events:

What we saw yesterday was nothing less than a cynical coup attempt...


I made a comment to the above and it's currently one of the worst rated. Feeling rather proud of that in a strange sort of way. But at least DM approved my comment unlike The Sun, seven comments submitted, seven comments censored. I'm now thinking of posting a comment in their sport section just to get one through.

 

[TheCracker]

An unelected Prime Minister, recently rejected resoundingly by the overwhelming majority of the British people, is determined to cling to office and rig the voting system in a cynical putsch designed to prevent his main political opponents from ever forming another government.

How about an unelectable rival leader, recently rejected by a majority of the voting public, is determined to worm his way into office and keep a outdated and unfair voting system in a desperate putsch designed to prevent sweeping changes that would make his party unable to form a government for the next century or so.

 

[Touring Mars]

While the Tories cannot possibly be described as having any sort of mandate to govern in Scotland (with just 1 seat in 59 and less than 17% of the vote), the Tories do have a clear overall majority under the current FPTP system in England (Con 297, Lab 191, Lib 43), albeit not under a system of PR, with 'only' 40% of the English vote and Labour and the Liberals getting a combined share of 52%. However, I don't think that the percentage of the vote of Labour and the Lib Dems can be combined so easily. Much is being made of the fact that a Labour-Liberal coalition would have a 'stronger mandate' than the Tories, by virtue of their combined percentage of the popular vote being higher (which it was always likely to be). But of the 52% of the population who did vote Labour or Liberal in England, some 80% of them would need to respond positively to the idea of a Lib-Lab pact over the alternatives (a Lib-Con pact for Liberal voters, no pact with the Liberals for the Labour voters), and this probably isn't the case.

I don't believe that a simple summing of the popular vote for two separate/disparate parties automatically translates into a 'mandate' for a coalition. Clearly, support for a Lab-Lib pact is not universal, either within Labour or Liberal ranks or the electorate, with senior members of both parties saying as much in recent days. Indeed, the Lib Dem leader clearly has no problem entertaining the idea of both a pact with Labour or the Tories, hence I reckon the typical Lib Dem voter might too (just so long as they get what they want out of it!). So the idea that Labour and the Liberals have a 'stronger mandate' than the Tories is possibly very misleading, based on a simple sum of their popular vote, not least because a simple summing of the popular vote would give a Lib-Con coalition an even 'stronger' mandate!

In any case, under the current FPTP system, arguably the Conservatives do have a mandate to govern England - however, without a devolved parliament, that ain't going to happen.

 

[ExigeEvan]

TM, you make a good point. In Wales a Labour-Lib Dem alliance would hold 29/40 seats. While a Con-Lib Dem alliance would hold only 11. Less than half the 26 that Labour hold alone.

Re. Daily Mail
The highest rated comment made my head hurt

Cameron WON this election under the present system.

No, no he didn't.

 

[TheCracker]

The highest rated comment made my head hurt

No, no he didn't.

Which is ironic given that it's the Tories that so love that system. Even Labour had originally stated that they'd switch it to P.R. - before going back on their word.

 

[Touring Mars]

The odd thing about P.R is that it would guarantee that parties had to make coalitions, but given what we're witnessing right now, it is clearly easier said than done. No less that three former cabinet ministers for Labour have come out warning against a Lib-Lab pact... John Reid is skeptical, Jack Straw is allegedy 'incensed' at the idea, and David Blunkett can't see it happening.

 

[TheCracker]

The odd thing about P.R is that it would guarantee that parties had to make coalitions, but given what we're witnessing right now, it is clearly easier said than done. No less that three former cabinet ministers for Labour have come out warning against a Lib-Lab pact... John Reid is skeptical, Jack Straw is allegedy 'incensed' at the idea, and David Blunkett can't see it happening.

👍

 

[Seismica]

The odd thing about P.R is that it would guarantee that parties had to make coalitions, but given what we're witnessing right now, it is clearly easier said than done. No less that three former cabinet ministers for Labour have come out warning against a Lib-Lab pact... John Reid is skeptical, Jack Straw is allegedy 'incensed' at the idea, and David Blunkett can't see it happening.

One of my favourite quotes from the election coverage was David Blunkett starting a sentence with:

"In my view..."

 

[Touring Mars]

Well, it looks like he may be right that a Labour-Liberal pact isn't going to happen... it sounds like Brown is likely to resign much sooner than he was suggesting yesterday, like tonight... and Cameron will likely win the support of the Lib Dems and form a coalition, albeit a rather odd one.

Still, I reckon Cameron as PM is the only sensible outcome at this point...

edit: It looks like Brown is about to announce his resignation now!

edit 2: Brown has resigned as Prime Minister. I'm sorry to see him go, personally, despite my rather cruel joke earlier!

Just watching Brown's motorcade wending it's way to Buckingham Palace. I hope Liz is in!

Hold on to your butts, here comes Prime Minister Cameron

 

[Aldo]

Dissappointed to see the One Show cut short only to find out Poshy Cameron Mc:censored: 🤬 is gonna be PM.

 

[Touring Mars]

Dissappointed to see the One Show cut short only to find out Poshy Cameron Mc:censored: 🤬 is gonna be PM.

I guess the Queen is not thrilled either - Eastenders is coming on!