To early braking

[Phoenixsui]

Most of you write about the normal situation like it should be.
My specific corner was the uphill left turn on brands hatch with the big red/white surfaces and it was a citroen gt in front of me. No FWD as far as i know. (Not sure about that because i would never drive those ugly Vision like cars like the 2 VW and this citroen.)
He was completely on the right. He brakes for 0,1 sec and realease it and i go left and want to pass but then because he released he was still fast and then brakes and dives into the corner while i was already going to overtake him. He fakebraked in my eyes and this is very dangerous. Sure i could have braked earlier and play safe. But ofthen enough in a pack of cars when you go slow you get bumped from behind or even crashed for being to slow.
Many dont retreat in front of the corner when they clearly cant pass you. I was in fight with him and i think he got worried about me crashing him and thats what he got for fakebraking instead. Giving me wrong informations and making me try to overtake him. If he braked at the brakepoint (or Close to it) and not so much earlier i would not even think of overtaking him in that corner. I had no chance to avoid the bump since he pulled into the very inside of the corner so fast.
Well thanks all for your Feedback so far.
Btw. the last race i lost 3 places for playing safe because every time i play safe a Porsche dived into the corner and overtaook me. Ok it mostly was no fair overtake by using me as a sidewall but still.

 

[Finflash]

What is really bad in braking zone is the line change. First corner yesterday with porsches and a guy changed line in braking zone 2 times. Initially he was going in the inside line behind 1st, at that point I was committed to go outside because there was the space, then he gets back to the outer line. I had to brake as hard as I could and go inside, and yet he starts steering to inside again. No way to avoid anymore. If he even stayed the second time in the same line I could have avoided him. Now in his mind he thinks I bumped him on purpose.

Few laps later he aggressively full throttle sidebumped me. Watched the replay and saw it was deliberate. Would have been fun as we were both as fast but you can't just race with these guys. Just settled behind him. Had a battle with other guy also for 2nd place and changed places many times and had no problems at all.

 

[pestre]

People just need to respect eachother. There will be a lot of races with different skill levels. At all cost avoid contact with drivers in front of you. Have patient. Over time(some laps) the driver in front of you will probably see that you are a faster driver, or an opening will provide itself. If you give that respect when behind, the driver in front will probably give you the same respect, and let you pass. It may not happen in that single race, but over time it will happen. If not, you just have to accept the loss in that race. Sometimes accidents will happen, but always have the mindset to avoid contact. Then you also get a much better driving experience on track for all.

I'm not an experienced online driver. I have only driven the first round in FIA competition on the Suzuka track. It was me and another driver moving away from the pack. Every lap time was 1.42 and 1.43. I was in second place, right behind the leader on every lap. The leader did a mistake a couple of times. I could manage to pass him, but I would probably get in contact if I tried, and then ruined his race. I decided to brake instead. I ended up in second place at the end. I wanted to win, but in the end it was a great race.

 

[jesQuick]

People just need to respect eachother. There will be a lot of races with different skill levels. At all cost avoid contact with drivers in front of you. Have patient. Over time(some laps) the driver in front of you will probably see that you are a faster driver, or an opening will provide itself. If you give that respect when behind, the driver in front will probably give you the same respect, and let you pass. It may not happen in that single race, but over time it will happen. If not, you just have to accept the loss in that race. Sometimes accidents will happen, but always have the mindset to avoid contact. Then you also get a much better driving experience on track for all.

I'm not an experienced online driver. I have only driven the first round in FIA competition on the Suzuka track. It was me and another driver moving away from the pack. Every lap time was 1.42 and 1.43. I was in second place, right behind the leader on every lap. The leader did a mistake a couple of times. I could manage to pass him, but I would probably get in contact if I tried, and then ruined his race. I decided to brake instead. I ended up in second place at the end. I wanted to win, but in the end it was a great race.

This is online gaming. Respect is not a word we can use to describe people's behaviour, sadly. But you're right, of course

 

[Phoenixsui]

This is online gaming. Respect is not a word we can use to describe people's behaviour, sadly. But you're right, of course

Well i think most Drivers in B S Ranks are very fair. Most Accidents happen by Fails not by Intention.

 

[demeaning pie]

In one of the sport races last night there was some contact by two other drivers going into a corner. After the race the guy who rear ended the other driver posted "sry you braked too early"

I just laughed.

 

[meck_rb7]

Yesterday Sport race i was just behind someone going to a corner. I stept off the gas and the guy behind me bumbed right into my rear... the guy in front taked off into the gravel and blamed me for crashing into him while i stept off the gas early so that i wouldn't touch him.. makes me look bad while im a fair racer....

 

[stevenhiggster]

As others have stated its your responsibility as the following car to avoid contact.
When I'm following someone bumper to bumper I always make sure I brake a tiny bit earlier than usual to avoid any bashing. If you've been like that for a couple of laps then you'll probably have a good idea of where and when they'll brake.
Study them for a lap and then you'll know where and when you can make your passing move safely and cleanly.

 

[TenderLoins]

I wish everyone could wrap there heads around the fact that if you’re the one behind, it is your job to avoid contact in front you. I know it’s not most of the people here on the forum.

I keep hearing, “he broke too early and that’s why I hit him”. BS! Broke too early for who? All cars handle differently and everyone drives differently. This means not everyone is going to brake at your spot.

If you’re following into a breaking zone either let off early or use a different line but you must avoid contact in front of you.

 

[RotorHed]

I wish everyone could wrap there heads around the fact that if you’re the one behind, it is your job to avoid contact in front you. I know it’s not most of the people here on the forum.

I keep hearing, “he broke too early and that’s why I hit him”. BS! Broke too early for who? All cars handle differently and everyone drives differently. This means not everyone is going to brake at your spot.

If you’re following into a breaking zone either let off early or use a different line but you must avoid contact in front of you.

Where is this rule stipulated? I’m genuinely curious - have you found this written in an FIA document somewhere?

 

[stevenhiggster]

Where is this rule stipulated? I’m genuinely curious - have you found this written in an FIA document somewhere?

It's probably written down somewhere, but regardless it is one of the most well known rules of racing, and in fact driving in general. Even on the road if you rear end someone regardless of what they did it is your fault.

 

[Shottah072]

Where is this rule stipulated? I’m genuinely curious - have you found this written in an FIA document somewhere?

Its not a rule its common sense.

 

[RotorHed]

It's probably written down somewhere, but regardless it is one of the most well known rules of racing, and in fact driving in general. Even on the road if you rear end someone regardless of what they did it is your fault.

Well you see I’ve had a careful look at the FIA rules (there aren’t many) and of those, none of them say the car behind is solely responsible for avoiding a collision.

They just say all cars must avoid crashing, crowding and dangerous driving and there are specific rules governing what the lead car must do when defending from a car behind - one move under braking, leave a space etc.

In fact I might even go further and say it is illegal for a slower car to inhibit the progress of a faster one - except by following the stipulated defence rules. When viewed from this perspective, it’s the lead car that should be considering how it defends just as much as the potential overtaker must consider where to pass safely.

Inherently this is based on the concept that a faster car arrives behind a slower one - in which case, the duty falls on both drivers to avoid dangerous driving and the the slower car ahead to defend in a legal way.

 

[stevenhiggster]

Well you see I’ve had a careful look at the FIA rules (there aren’t many) and of those, none of them say the car behind is solely responsible for avoiding a collision.

They just say all cars must avoid crashing, crowding and dangerous driving and there are specific rules governing what the lead car must do when defending from a car behind - one move under braking, leave a space etc.

In fact I might even go further and say it is illegal for a slower car to inhibit the progress of a faster one - except by following the stipulated defence rules. When viewed from this perspective, it’s the lead car that should be considering how it defends just as much as the potential overtaker must consider where to pass safely.

Inherently this is based on the concept that a faster car arrives behind a slower one - in which case, the duty falls on both drivers to avoid dangerous driving and the the slower car ahead to defend in a legal way.

By "slower car" it likely means lapped cars or different classes of car. Not people in the same class racing for position.

 

[JulesDennis]

Well you see I’ve had a careful look at the FIA rules (there aren’t many) and of those, none of them say the car behind is solely responsible for avoiding a collision.

They just say all cars must avoid crashing, crowding and dangerous driving and there are specific rules governing what the lead car must do when defending from a car behind - one move under braking, leave a space etc.

In fact I might even go further and say it is illegal for a slower car to inhibit the progress of a faster one - except by following the stipulated defence rules. When viewed from this perspective, it’s the lead car that should be considering how it defends just as much as the potential overtaker must consider where to pass safely.

Inherently this is based on the concept that a faster car arrives behind a slower one - in which case, the duty falls on both drivers to avoid dangerous driving and the the slower car ahead to defend in a legal way.

if the leader does not violate any of FIA rules (there are very specific about both defending a position and also getting lapped) then its the guy that follows that always has the fault for "dangerous driving" and causing an accident.
One can be as slow as he wants (within reason-he cannot go 20 mph for example-) if he defends his position.If his defence/line is legit (under FIA rules) then he can ""slow down" (or for some "block") the attacker as much as he wants.

EDIT:"its the guy that follows that always has the fault for "dangerous driving" and causing an accident" This because the car tha follows hits the car in front and not the other way around.

 

[RotorHed]

if the leader does not violate any of FIA rules (there are very specific about both defending a position and also getting lapped) then its the guy that follows that always has the fault for "dangerous driving" and causing an accident.
One can be as slow as he wants (within reason-he cannot go 20 mph for example-) if he defends his position.If his defence/line is legit (under FIA rules) then he can ""slow down" (or for some "block") the attacker as much as he wants.

I’m afraid I don’t see that in the rules - in fact my reading is that deliberate blocking is prohibited.

The rules never say a following driver is in some way more responsible for safety than a leading driver - the rules simply say everyone is responsible for safe driving.

“2. Sporting Code are deemed to be part of this code. All drivers must abide by them.

2. Overtaking, car control and track limits
a) A car alone on the track may use the full width of the said track, however, as soon as it is caught to lap it the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first possible opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use of the rear-view mirrors, flag marshals will display the waved blue flag to indicate that the faster driver wants to overtake. Any driver who appears to ignore the blue flags will be reported to the Stewards of the meeting.

b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifable reason. More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder or the
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the stewards of the meeting.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the stewards of the meeting and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

e) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time.“



I don’t see any special rules for the car behind here but there are some Special rules for the car ahead.

This isn’t to defend people ramming from behind by the way - I just find the “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want” an illegitimate argument. Everyone is on the track, it’s up to everyone to operate safely.

 

[Deadheadbill]

I don’t see any special rules for the Car behind here but there are some Special rules for the car ahead.

This isn’t to defend people ramming from behind by the way - I just find the “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want” an illegitimate argument. Everyone is on the track, it’s up to everyone to operate safely.

I don't think anyone is saying that. For example weaving is obviously illegal but making a lane change to block is not.

However, you seem to be implying here and elsewhere that it is incumbent upon the slower car to let the faster car pass and that is simply not true. Passing slower cars is part of racing, otherwise why not just do qualifiers and call it a day. Apologies if i have misunderstood your point.

 

[JulesDennis]

I’m afraid I don’t see that in the rules - in fact my reading is that deliberate blocking is prohibited..

I did wrote "or for some "block"".Blocking is not allowed.Yet if you follow FIA rules then you can "block" (in the attacker's mind if he is faster or think he is faster) as much as you want.FIA dont have a rule that say that the leader must have the same or better pace than the follower or otherwise must give position.

EDIT:There are specific rules about defending position.If I follow those then I can keep you behind me for the rest of the race,even when you are 1,5 sec faster than me -example-.
Its your responsibility to find a way to make a clean pass.

I don’t see any special rules for the Car behind here but there are some Special rules for the car ahead.

I agree.If the leader drives by those rules then the accident is caused by the attacker (even when lapping or have a better overall pace) and thats why he takes the blame.

This isn’t to defend people ramming from behind by the way - I just find the “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want” an illegitimate argument. Everyone is on the track, it’s up to everyone to operate safely.

I agree.

 

[TenderLoins]

I’m afraid I don’t see that in the rules - in fact my reading is that deliberate blocking is prohibited.

The rules never say a following driver is in some way more responsible for safety than a leading driver - the rules simply say everyone is responsible for safe driving.

“2. Sporting Code are deemed to be part of this code. All drivers must abide by them.

2. Overtaking, car control and track limits
a) A car alone on the track may use the full width of the said track, however, as soon as it is caught to lap it the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first possible opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use of the rear-view mirrors, flag marshals will display the waved blue flag to indicate that the faster driver wants to overtake. Any driver who appears to ignore the blue flags will be reported to the Stewards of the meeting.

b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifable reason. More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder or the
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the stewards of the meeting.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the stewards of the meeting and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

e) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time.“



I don’t see any special rules for the car behind here but there are some Special rules for the car ahead.

This isn’t to defend people ramming from behind by the way - I just find the “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want” an illegitimate argument. Everyone is on the track, it’s up to everyone to operate safely.

Not one person said “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want.”

The general consensus is that “he broke too early” is not an excuse for punting.

 

[Deadheadbill]

Not one person said “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want.”

The general consensus is that “he broke too early” is not an excuse for punting.

Pretty much as simple as that.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

if the leader does not violate any of FIA rules (there are very specific about both defending a position and also getting lapped) then its the guy that follows that always has the fault for "dangerous driving" and causing an accident.
One can be as slow as he wants (within reason-he cannot go 20 mph for example-) if he defends his position.If his defence/line is legit (under FIA rules) then he can ""slow down" (or for some "block") the attacker as much as he wants.

EDIT:"its the guy that follows that always has the fault for "dangerous driving" and causing an accident" This because the car tha follows hits the car in front and not the other way around.

All racing orgs have rules concerning maintaining a minimum speed on track or the violator will be black flagged. Most have a set percentage of what that speed is compared to the race pace.

Also even in qualifying the time of a competitor must be within a certain percentage of the fastest qualifiers time or they will not be allowed entry into the race.

It is generally accepted across ALL racing orgs that the overtaking car is responsible for avoiding contact with the leading car, shared responsibility generally does not come into play until the trailing car has pulled along side far enough that the front of the trailing car is even with the driver in the leading car or the leading car is engaging in unacceptable blocking maneuvers.

 

[TenderLoins]

An easy way to to look at it.

You can’t stop someone from punting you.

You can and should avoid punting someone else.

 

[RotorHed]

I don't think anyone is saying that. For example weaving is obviously illegal but making a lane change to block is not.

However, you seem to be implying here and elsewhere that it is incumbent upon the slower car to let the faster car pass and that is simply not true. Passing slower cars is part of racing, otherwise why not just do qualifiers and call it a day. Apologies if i have misunderstood your point.

Yeah I understand what you mean.

I suppose I just want it clarified that the responsibility for a safe/clean race is on everyone. The car ahead also has a duty to race with regard to safety for the cars behind.

 

[stevenhiggster]

Watch a replay of last year's Abu dahbi gp for a perfect example of blocking.
If the rules were as you say then Hamilton would have been penalised, but he wasn't. He deliberately drove slower than he could at certain parts of the track where passing is not possible in order to back Rosberg into Vettel. Then sped away at the parts where passing is possible.
People need to get this mentality whereby they think they are faster thus are entitled to the position out of their head. If you cannot pass without contact then you cannot pass full stop, as long as the driver in front doesn't do any illegal manoeuvres in order to keep you behind then behind you must stay.

Edit: Or just watch any Monaco GP pretty much ever, it is very rarely the fastest car on the day that wins there. But it is near impossible to pass without contact, so they don't get to pass.

 

[RotorHed]

Not one person said “I’m in front so I have unrestricted rights to do what I want.”

The general consensus is that “he broke too early” is not an excuse for punting.

I was responding to this which was in your post. Although you’re not the only one to post this - it seems to be a common statement in threads.

“I wish everyone could wrap there heads around the fact that if you’re the one behind, it is your job to avoid contact in front you”.

I realise this was in regards to braking points and so on.

I’m simply pointing out the written FIA rules don’t say this. They only say it’s all drivers responsibiity to race cleanly and they specify acceptable rules for defence.

Watch a replay of last year's Abu dahbi gp for a perfect example of blocking.
If the rules were as you say then Hamilton would have been penalised, but he wasn't. He deliberately drove slower than he could at certain parts of the track where passing is not possible in order to back Rosberg into Vettel. Then sped away at the parts where passing is possible.
People need to get this mentality whereby they think they are faster thus are entitled to the position out of their head. If you cannot pass without contact then you cannot pass full stop, as long as the driver in front doesn't do any illegal manoeuvres in order to keep you behind then behind you must stay.

Edit: Or just watch any Monaco GP pretty much ever, it is very rarely the fastest car on the day that wins there. But it is near impossible to pass without contact, so they don't get to pass.

I’m not making any claim about the rules - I posted the rules word for word a few posts ago. Intentional blocking isn’t penalised in GTS either yet it happens all the time.

It’s not unusual for people to complain about the poor standard of rule application and consistency in F1 - barely a weekend goes by when there isn’t some inconsistent decision about something.

 

[TenderLoins]

I was responding to this which was in your post. Although you’re not the only one to post this - it seems to be a common statement in threads.



I realise this was in regards to braking points and so on.

I’m simply pointing out the written FIA rules don’t say this. They only say it’s all drivers responsibiity to race cleanly and they specify acceptable rules for defence.

They don’t say this because it’s common sense among racers when following the rules.

I totally agree it’s all drivers responsibility to race cleanly and within the rules.

 

[Outspacer]

Agreed. Need an "object in mirror blah blah blah" decal on it.

It is quite misleading. I keep using rear view to check. Or the timing differences - anything less than 0.5 secs is 'close', although it can look far in the mirror.

MMX put it well, during the closed beta phase....

They should add text to the mirror saying, "Divebombers are closer than they appear."

 

[Mr616]

Its not a rule its common sense.

That made me lol. Very true though. I cannot grasp how anybody can blame anything in front of them. They are the ones driving towards it.

Probably the same kind of people that need "HOT" warnings on their coffee, or "if you didn't tell me I couldn't do it, then it's your fault I did do it".

Racers, take responsibility for your own actions and learn from your experiences.

 

[GTPoet]

This discussion is one of the best I've seen on any gaming forum anywhere.



I'm not very technically knowledgeable about racing, so this has been a great read for me. Couple of things I'd like to add.

1. Seems to me that since the SR system doesn't accurately penalize contact, people drive counterintuitively to avoid contact which often causes contact. I include myself here. I've caused problems for driver's behind me because I don't trust the guy ahead of me. Which causes the driver behind me to not trust me.

2. This is an online GAME. As much a we might like it to be it isn't true to life. If I **** up, I don't get fined, my car doesn't so much as misfire after a wreck. I can hit a wall a 180 and it only costs me a few seconds. Everyone to varying degrees regards rules and ettiquette from super serious racer to demo derby.

3. And this ties into point 2. Penalties cause drivers to change there behavior to null them. This causes another layer of "WTF is he doing?". I think penalties should just stick and you get to see your big red number of shame at the end of the race.

So, I don't think braking early or late, or who is responsible or when can really be quantified accurately or properly when there are variables in play that would otherwise not be on a RL race track.

Game vs Real are frustrating things to reconcile.

Sport mode needs a Sport mode

 

[Deadheadbill]

I think penalties should just stick and you get to see your big red number of shame at the end of the race.

Big red number of shame. I like that.