To early braking

[Shottah072]

This discussion is one of the best I've seen on any gaming forum anywhere.



I'm not very technically knowledgeable about racing, so this has been a great read for me. Couple of things I'd like to add.

1. Seems to me that since the SR system doesn't accurately penalize contact, people drive counterintuitively to avoid contact which often causes contact. I include myself here. I've caused problems for driver's behind me because I don't trust the guy ahead of me. Which causes the driver behind me to not trust me.

2. This is an online GAME. As much a we might like it to be it isn't true to life. If I **** up, I don't get fined, my car doesn't so much as misfire after a wreck. I can hit a wall a 180 and it only costs me a few seconds. Everyone to varying degrees regards rules and ettiquette from super serious racer to demo derby.

3. And this ties into point 2. Penalties cause drivers to change there behavior to null them. This causes another layer of "WTF is he doing?". I think penalties should just stick and you get to see your big red number of shame at the end of the race.

So, I don't think braking early or late, or who is responsible or when can really be quantified accurately or properly when there are variables in play that would otherwise not be on a RL race track.

Game vs Real are frustrating things to reconcile.

Sport mode needs a Sport mode

I disagree with 1. Avoiding contact is not counterintuitively, at least it is not for me. Any contact can ruin your race by going off of or crashing. So even without a penalty system avoiding contact is always priority 1. This doesnt mean you cant be agressive or race hard by the way.

 

[DigitalBaka]

I disagree with 1. Avoiding contact is not counterintuitively, at least it is not for me. Any contact can ruin your race by going off of or crashing. So even without a penalty system avoiding contact is always priority 1. This doesnt mean you cant be agressive or race hard by the way.

I think for your "more than casuals" and people that get sim racing it's not counter-intuitive for sure. For people that pick it up thinking it's NFS or GTA, they may not get the consequences of a tap or brush or even bumping into a corner because they just don't have the experience and they just want to get to the front like it's an AI race.

I think for a lot of people they are starting to see that they are not as good or as fast as they thought they were, and I definitely still include myself in that bunch even with what I've seen in the GTP WRS. Racing against friends and randoms in a lobby is one thing, AI another, but once you start seeing the sheer skill level of a competitive racer....especially those you get matched with that are "your skill level". The time difference may not be huge but technique and racecraft are not things you just pick up in a couple races.

 

[spoonaaay]

Too*

 

[demeaning pie]

Seems to me that since the SR system doesn't accurately penalize contact, people drive counterintuitively to avoid contact which often causes contact. I include myself here. I've caused problems for driver's behind me because I don't trust the guy ahead of me. Which causes the driver behind me to not trust me.

The biggest problem solver would be if people would hold their line. Fast racers will find a way around. I raced for the very first time at the (having a brain fart on the name) tight Australia track last night. Never did a single lap until the practice session and I was several seconds slower than the leaders. All I did was hold my line and never once had an issue (endurance race, pit stops, passed by the fast guys because they pitted before me).

 

[GTPoet]

I disagree with 1. Avoiding contact is not counterintuitively, at least it is not for me. Any contact can ruin your race by going off of or crashing. So even without a penalty system avoiding contact is always priority 1. This doesnt mean you cant be agressive or race hard by the way.

I didn't mean avoiding contact is counterintuitive.

It's the when and why that can become so. IRL a driver isn't going to be sloshing all over the track the whole race, he's not going to lag and teleport from lane to lane. He's not going to make moves that would kill him or other drivers, or at least destroy their cars. And if they do their career is gonna be a short one.

There's racing and there's playing a game. Theoretically the rating system should separate the two but we aren't there yet.

If you're a really ****ing awesome driver you're probably racing with other awesome drivers, but if your like me and are in the middle, it's kind of a mishmash of people trying to get better and people who will wreck you for whatever reason, people who qualify well but can't drive in crowd, people who should probably use a little more driver assist.

It's not racing, it's dodging bullets.

 

[TenderLoins]

“Dodging bullets” is a good analogy.

 

[Phoenixsui]

e) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time.“

That sounds good. This rule could also Count for the i brake early to avoid the follower bumping me in the real Corner later Problem.

Yesterday in the brand race i had a awesome battle with a finnish guy in his Peugeot and i was in the Mustang again. It was totally possible to drive bumper on bumper with him even in corners and braking zones. Just because he didnt fear the battle and kept going in his pace and not doing strange braking manouvers to "prevent" a crash in the corner itself. We changed positions 3 or 4 times and also had some really small bumps that didnt even change someones line. That was really nice. Even if i lost my position again short before finish line.

Well maybe i should change the thread title. Because most people seem not to read the startpost and just respond to the title.

edit: The fight was around position 7-8 in that race.

 

[Baconink]

Well you see I’ve had a careful look at the FIA rules (there aren’t many) and of those, none of them say the car behind is solely responsible for avoiding a collision.

They just say all cars must avoid crashing, crowding and dangerous driving and there are specific rules governing what the lead car must do when defending from a car behind - one move under braking, leave a space etc.

In fact I might even go further and say it is illegal for a slower car to inhibit the progress of a faster one - except by following the stipulated defence rules. When viewed from this perspective, it’s the lead car that should be considering how it defends just as much as the potential overtaker must consider where to pass safely.

Inherently this is based on the concept that a faster car arrives behind a slower one - in which case, the duty falls on both drivers to avoid dangerous driving and the the slower car ahead to defend in a legal way.

Technically it is mostly up to the car behind to avoid contact at all cost. The guy up front owns all of the track and it’s up to you to not barrel into him. If during the straight leading up to the turn you do manage to get your nose of your car to the half way point of there car or a bit more then you gain control and possession of that inside line.

 

[JulesDennis]

Technically it is mostly up to the car behind to avoid contact at all cost. The guy up front owns all of the track and it’s up to you to not barrel into him. If during the straight leading up to the turn you do manage to get your nose of your car to the half way point of there car or a bit more then you gain control and possession of that inside line.

Not entirely true.
The can in front "owns" the line he chosen.That line can be changed once and never during a corner.He cannot go left to right and back to left just because he is in front.
He is not allowed to break-check.He cannot go as slow as he wants.

 

[ArchangelX]

I did wrote "or for some "block"".Blocking is not allowed.Yet if you follow FIA rules then you can "block" (in the attacker's mind if he is faster or think he is faster) as much as you want.FIA dont have a rule that say that the leader must have the same or better pace than the follower or otherwise must give position.

EDIT:There are specific rules about defending position.If I follow those then I can keep you behind me for the rest of the race,even when you are 1,5 sec faster than me -example-.
Its your responsibility to find a way to make a clean pass.



I agree.If the leader drives by those rules then the accident is caused by the attacker (even when lapping or have a better overall pace) and thats why he takes the blame.



I agree.

Okay, so does this same rule apply to back markers in GTS? I was in 4th place during an FIA manufcaturer's race...,and a 20th place car was intentionally ramming people. I tried to get around him quickly but he blocked me several times, then when I went for an obvious opening due to his crappy driving, he hit me three times, finally making me spin out and losing my position on like the 7th lap. His name was Pizza something.

Right pissed me off. A back marker shouldn't be able to hold up a much, much faster car...especially when they're many places ahead. In real racing, he would have gotten a blue flag and he would have had to move over. In GTS, there's no penalties at all. I almost rage-quit.

 

[TenderLoins]

Okay, so does this same rule apply to back markers? I was in 4th place during an FIA manufcaturer's race...,and a 20th place car was intentionally ramming people. I tried to get around him quickly but he blocked me several times, then when I went for an obvious opening due to his crappy driving, he hit me three times, finally making me spin out and losing my position on like the 7th lap. His name was Pizza something.

Right pissed me off.

Backmarkers should just hold a normal racing line and make it easy for the leaders to pass. They are not supposed to defend.

 

[ArchangelX]

Yes, I totally agree with that. I'm a huge follower of Motorsports so I do understand what a back marker is supposed to do. In GTS though, they rarely have this mindset though. And they can screw up erase quite easily for someone. That's frustrating knowing that you're not going to be penalized at all for it. Since they're already practically dead last.

 

[TenderLoins]

They do it because they are mad/frustrated because they aren’t as good as they thought and are taking it out on everyone else.

Backmarkers should be ghosted if they try to interfere.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

They do it because they are mad/frustrated because they aren’t as good as they thought and are taking it out on everyone else.

Backmarkers should be ghosted if they try to interfere.

Actually though not really realistic Ghosting the back markers would probably be the simplest and probably the best fix as far as eliminating problems or confusion within the game.

 

[TenderLoins]

Actually though not really realistic Ghosting the back markers would probably be the simplest and probably the best fix as far as eliminating problems or confusion within the game.

I agree, but having backmarkers that intentionally try and slow you down or take you out isn’t realistic either.

 

[Baconink]

Not entirely true.
The can in front "owns" the line he chosen.That line can be changed once and never during a corner.He cannot go left to right and back to left just because he is in front.
He is not allowed to break-check.He cannot go as slow as he wants.

I agree completely with all that and the one-move defense.

 

[Shottah072]

I think for your "more than casuals" and people that get sim racing it's not counter-intuitive for sure. For people that pick it up thinking it's NFS or GTA, they may not get the consequences of a tap or brush or even bumping into a corner because they just don't have the experience and they just want to get to the front like it's an AI race.

I think for a lot of people they are starting to see that they are not as good or as fast as they thought they were, and I definitely still include myself in that bunch even with what I've seen in the GTP WRS. Racing against friends and randoms in a lobby is one thing, AI another, but once you start seeing the sheer skill level of a competitive racer....especially those you get matched with that are "your skill level". The time difference may not be huge but technique and racecraft are not things you just pick up in a couple races.

I see your point, that is true indeed. Almost anyone can practice till they can do decent lap times but racecraft and proper technique may take hundreds of online races to develop. By then their pace probably improved as well and they will be in the top splits leaving the middle with new drivers who are still learning or just dont care or whatever.

I'm afraid the sad truth is that a clean field of mediocre random drivers capable of runnin door to door and bumper to bumper is almost a utopia because of this. No matter what system you put in place. There is just to big of skill gap, not persee pace wise but racing etiquette wise.

This discussion actually reminded me of my first proper online racing, it was with gt5. I joined a Dutch community of fairly experienced drivers. I felt great for being able to hang with their pace and tried to overtake them any corner chucking it on the inside. They had the experience to avoid me so i was able to 'overtake' some of them. Afterwards i was really happy with my races thinking i did a great job. But back on the forum they pretty much told me i should tone it down a bit and dont try every corner. I've raced them some more after that and was glad i did. Looking back on it they gave me a great headstart on racecraft and etiquette.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I think one thing that many racers do is not stick with racing the same car or couple of cars and they never really learn what a car is capable of or at their current skills exactly where the limit may be for that car.

 

[ConnorWolf]

Also keep in mind that when following closely you may only be .1 of a second behind the FRONT of another driver's car, if you both brake at the same place you will have contact, because .1 second at 145mph is a much larger distance than .1 second at 45 mph. That change in distance results in your cars wanting to be in the same place at the same time.

Simply put, if you follow too closely, you will need to brake early. This is also why the following driver will sometimes fall back slightly, in order to leave a gap to drive into and get a run for the exit.

 

[andyparks]

I have to break early because I'm using a wheel..if I don't my wheel vibrates bad with understeer

 

[Ashthebash]

Hi Racers

How do you avoid to get in trouble when there is players who brake early by intension to signal you that they will soon brake.
Lets say normally you brake at 100m and this guy brakes at 130m but just a split second and then again at 100m. Forcing you to brake as well so you wont brake to late and push him out. But I find that irritating and it cost a lot of focus. And when in battle mode in the last laps you may dont expect that from him.
Also i have to look where he brakes instead of maybe a mark where i normally would brake.
When going in a close fields of 3+ cars i think you should not brake 30 meter earlier just to signal the guy behind you to brake.
Yesterday i accidentally pushed 1 out of a corner and he lost 4 places because he did that. We were going almost on qualiy laptimes the last laps and there is no room for such things when you are in front and the guys behind you also fight tightly for positions. Bumper on bumper racing only works when everybody goes the same speed and does no strange things.
Normally i brake 5-10m earlier than normal when close behind someone and just lapping and waiting for a misstake. But if this dude even brakes 30m earlier then what should i do? Is it even my fault when i bump him in this Situation? Should i let him come back in front of me after that?
I am currently in B S Rank races and these guys are mostly in 1-2 sec same lap times. So there is for me no reason to brake much to early when i see they all know the track and the brakepoints. Only in the very beginning of the race i brake this early. But thats what alsmost all do in lap 1 to avoid crashes.
What do you think? Is the one in the back always responsible to avoid the crash or maybe at some point also the guy in front who leads the group of cars?

See you on the Tracks

Ever since I ran into the back of someone at Nurburgring chicane (braking at an absolutely normal point I may add) I've always either pulled out of the slipstream or just lifted off to give myself a little extra leeway so it doesn't matter if they brake test or brake early. I feel really bad if I hit someone due to a mistake!

 

[stevenhiggster]

Okay, so does this same rule apply to back markers in GTS? I was in 4th place during an FIA manufcaturer's race...,and a 20th place car was intentionally ramming people. I tried to get around him quickly but he blocked me several times, then when I went for an obvious opening due to his crappy driving, he hit me three times, finally making me spin out and losing my position on like the 7th lap. His name was Pizza something.

Right pissed me off. A back marker shouldn't be able to hold up a much, much faster car...especially when they're many places ahead. In real racing, he would have gotten a blue flag and he would have had to move over. In GTS, there's no penalties at all. I almost rage-quit.

Back markers are a real problem in this game, because they don't get any warnings that the leaders are approaching. No blue flag no onscreen message. They can see you in their mirrors but you can't see someone's race position in your rear view only when a car is in front.
Back markers need a warning or to just be ghosted as the leaders approach. I've had more than a few scary moments passing lapped cars!

 

[Baconink]

Also keep in mind that when following closely you may only be .1 of a second behind the FRONT of another driver's car, if you both brake at the same place you will have contact, because .1 second at 145mph is a much larger distance than .1 second at 45 mph. That change in distance results in your cars wanting to be in the same place at the same time.

Simply put, if you follow too closely, you will need to brake early. This is also why the following driver will sometimes fall back slightly, in order to leave a gap to drive into and get a run for the exit.

Hey Connor! I have been in lobbies with you several times these past few mornings. You are certainly a fast one lol. It was a pleasure racing with ya. I was CuReD_bacon if that rings a bell.

 

[Baconink]

Back markers are a real problem in this game, because they don't get any warnings that the leaders are approaching. No blue flag no onscreen message. They can see you in their mirrors but you can't see someone's race position in your rear view only when a car is in front.
Back markers need a warning or to just be ghosted as the leaders approach. I've had more than a few scary moments passing lapped cars!

Same here but I’ve also had quite a few pull to the side and let me pass. That’s usually only if I’m way faster than their pace but it happens. I do agree and think it’s a great idea though.

Ugh, I’m sorry. I’m new here and terrible with these replies. I keep forgetting to make multiple quotes. I apologize mods

 

[DigitalBaka]

Back markers are a real problem in this game, because they don't get any warnings that the leaders are approaching. No blue flag no onscreen message. They can see you in their mirrors but you can't see someone's race position in your rear view only when a car is in front.
Back markers need a warning or to just be ghosted as the leaders approach. I've had more than a few scary moments passing lapped cars!

A blue flag warning like the penalty popup would be great. I think very few people are probably watching the trackside flags...I know I don't 90% of the time. That said, I've never had a race run long enough to get to lapped traffic yet so I don't know what anyone would see anyway.

 

[andyparks]

Do you all use controllers or steering wheels

 

[Baconink]

A blue flag warning like the penalty popup would be great. I think very few people are probably watching the trackside flags...I know I don't 90% of the time. That said, I've never had a race run long enough to get to lapped traffic yet so I don't know what anyone would see anyway.

I pay attention to the flags a lot. A yellow flag is very handy in letting you know there is an accident coming up. I also lapped someone last night on the brands gr3 daily. At first I don’t think he knew it was 1st place and tried holding his ground but eventually he pulled aside and let me pass.