Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[homeforsummer]

Who has BTCC event pictures?

Cool pics 👍 I've got hundreds of old BTCC pics, I just need to dig them out of various CDs littered around the house. Will try and upload/post some today.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Well WTCC from Marrakech..

Despite the circuits obvious shortcomings race two was pretty good, watching the BMW's fling themselves skyward over the curbs was awesome, Coronels race 2 wobble inches from the wall shortly after his 320TC landed was amazing.

Better performance by the AON Fords.

.. but sadly, a predictable result.

 

[Prince.M5]

The mid-field battle between the BMWs, Fords and SEATs were absolute entertainment!

Then again, the BMW came out as the best of the rest and still doing very good on a circuit which doesn't suit the BMW at all.

Nothing much can be said about the Chevrolets. Very, very, very predictable. I guess I don't have to say anything about Chevrolet anymore unless something wrong happens because seriously, we know they will do good and the result in the end will always be very predictable.

EDIT:

A look ahead into the next round in Slovakia. The first time for everyone to go there but I think it's more of a BMW circuit because the long sweeping corners will not favour the FWD cars. I have high hopes for the BMWs to finally break the Chevrolet wins streak.

 

[MatskiMonk]

A look ahead into the next round in Slovakia. The first time for everyone to go there but I think it's more of a BMW circuit because the long sweeping corners will not favour the FWD cars. I have high hopes for the BMWs to finally break the Chevrolet wins streak.

It should be interesting, but I'll never forget something that Mat Jackson said to me about long sweepers "All the front wheel drive guys have to do is keep their foot down and let their ass drag along the floor, for us [BMW's] we have to wait forever to get fully on the power"... not sure if he was totally right, but I still think it will be a Chevrolet lock-out.

 

[Prince.M5]

It should be interesting, but I'll never forget something that Mat Jackson said to me about long sweepers "All the front wheel drive guys have to do is keep their foot down and let their ass drag along the floor, for us [BMW's] we have to wait forever to get fully on the power"... not sure if he was totally right, but I still think it will be a Chevrolet lock-out.

I think he was right about putting on the power and during the qualifying I'm actually not expecting anything from the BMW but during the race, I think the FWD cars will eat up more tyres with the constant sweeping corners way more compared to the BMW. Thus, why I said this could be a BMW winning breakthrough. Still two weeks from now though...

 

[hornet_burnout]

Seriously, Muller is the man, Menu is very fast and Huff's no slouch, but this is getting ridiculous. The "Chevy Trophy" is a race appart and will only become interesting for me by the end of the season...

Keep it up Coronel (and others)!

 

[matt-mtb]

Good to see the Fords looking strong with Nash and Chilton. Also Alex Mac is doing well in the Bamboo Chevy

 

[Prince.M5]

Good to see the Fords looking strong with Nash and Chilton. Also Alex Mac is doing well in the Bamboo Chevy

The Fords are doing very well in fact this weekend but still some glitch and reliability problem hampered them, at least not as bad as the first 2 rounds. Alex on the other hand is also doing well, but it's pretty much kind of predictable too because the Chevy as we all know is a very good car and he has a lot of experience with the Cruze as he also drove it in BTCC. Only time I think he did bad was when he bumped on the back of Coronel and spun him, but I know it wasn't intentional

 

[Prince.M5]

I don't know what was Gabrielli Tarquini or whatever the way is to spell his name, but I have officially lost respect to this man. He made a contact with Michelisz in Race 1, put him sideways and he didn't give a place back to him - just ran away to take the victory. In Race 2, he made contact with Muller, putting Muller sideways but gave the place back to Muller despite it was being investigated still. It could've been Michelisz's first win!

Seriously, WTF is this?!?

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd not be too hard on Tarquini, he's hardly like that every race. I didn't see the races but it's worth remembering that drivers are under no obligation to give back places won from contact, whether that contact should have happened or not.

 

[Prince.M5]

The contact he made with Michelisz was pretty hard and it put him sideways under a braking zone. What, he gave a place back to Muller because he is a world champion and was his former team mate while Michelisz was an unknown driver who made his way from online racing and only a year of experience in WTCC? It was unfair.

If Tarquini is going to be penalised for his mistake in Race 2 but not receiving any for Race 1, I just don't know what to say, really...

 

[MatskiMonk]

Big shame for Michelisz.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I don't know what was Gabrielli Tarquini or whatever the way is to spell his name, but I have officially lost respect to this man. He made a contact with Michelisz in Race 1, put him sideways and he didn't give a place back to him - just ran away to take the victory. In Race 2, he made contact with Muller, putting Muller sideways but gave the place back to Muller despite it was being investigated still. It could've been Michelisz's first win!

Seriously, WTF is this?!?

It looked like Muller breaking too early to me. I didn't see the first race so no idea about that.

 

[Prince.M5]

It looked like Muller breaking too early to me. I didn't see the first race so no idea about that.

It doesn't matter whether Muller braked too early or Tarquini was rocketting behind him but if Tarquini gave the place back to Muller, why not Michelisz?

Seriously, these WTCC 🤬 is such a joke.

 

[hornet_burnout]

I think #1 was deliberate, he got what he wanted and raced away. Deserved a penalty like Muller got.

#2 was unintentional IMO. I could swear I saw surprise in his eyes on the on-board replay. Apparently was happy with his position _and_ not getting on the wrong side of Yvan "the terrible" Muller, so he held back.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

It doesn't matter whether Muller braked too early or Tarquini was rocketting behind him but if Tarquini gave the place back to Muller, why not Michelisz?

Seriously, these WTCC 🤬 is such a joke.

Tarquini didnt gave the place back to Muller, did you watch the race ? He didnt overtook him because he just couldnt, Muller was at 90° and everything went super fast, he stayed behind the whole incident in fear of hitting him again. The only reason Muller stayed on the track it's because he's a genius. I mean look at that push and the one in Monza, both time he recovered like a incredible genius, most people would have just spun out. The accident with Michelisz is something else I'm glad it's not penalized, this is WTCC not F1, contact are bound to happen, beside it wasnt really dangerous, so yeah.

Dont get me wrong it sucks for Michelisz but that's racing.

What is questionnable tho, is why did Muller get penalized for his move on Michelisz when Tarquini move on the same Michelisz seems pretty much the same and end up with no penalty for Tarquini.

 

[Prince.M5]

Tarquini didnt gave the place back to Muller, did you watch the race ? He didnt overtook him because he just couldnt, Muller was at 90° and everything went super fast, he stayed behind the whole incident in fear of hitting him again. The only reason Muller stayed on the track it's because he's a genius. I mean look at that push and the one in Monza, both time he recovered like a incredible genius, most people would have just spun out. The accident with Michelisz is something else I'm glad it's not penalized, this is WTCC not F1, contact are bound to happen, beside it wasnt really dangerous, so yeah.

What? He had the chance to sneak anywhere he think is possible to overtake and perhaps he can hit him again and put him sideways again because he didn't have the fear of putting anybody sideways.

He's a genius? Everybody on the track is a genius. The only thing that helped Muller was his FWD Cruze. Make that a RWD BMW, he will be spinning around just like Michelisz. You can sample more of that exact 'Muller genius' in BTCC anyway.

So, everytime you want to pass you will just bump onto somebody and grab that place away? How long have you been watching touring cars anyway? Bumping somebody off the racing line is... I guess owkey but bumping somebody and almost spun him around and gained the position is absolutely unacceptable.

Let's take Coronel for example who bumped onto Tarquini in Valencia in order to pass him. Guess what? Coronel received a white and black flag for doing so. And for the fact, Coronel stayed in 3rd place and gained nothing on Tarquini. This one? I don't know what the stewards were doing but it's ridiculous! Very inconsistent!

What is questionnable tho, is why did Muller get penalized for his move on Michelisz when Tarquini move on the same Michelisz seems pretty much the same and end up with no penalty for Tarquini.

That's also my point. What were the stewards thinking?!?

EDIT:

Just to refresh your memory, we'll go back to Valencia again, now Race 2. Did you remember Menu bumped on to the back of D'aste in order to pass him for the lead? He put D'aste sideways but he gave the place back to him, and overtook him cleanly the next time around. Now, the question is. Why couldn't Tarquini?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Tarquini let Muller keep his place, and although Mullers slide looked pretty impressive, as InvincibleM5 points out, it's FWD - turn into it and nail the throttle, that's far less impressive than some of Mullers Ice Racing escapades.

You're not supposed to gain an advantage by hitting another competitor - whether it's totally accidental or not, Michelisz got the worst end of contact from Tarquini and Muller, yet when those two come to blows they choose to get all gentlemanly about it.

I still watch WTCC simply because of the number of 320's still in the sport, I'll happily watch it so long as I have somebody to cheer for, take Coronel, Cerqui, Engstler, D'Aste and Michelisz out of the equation, and I probably wouldn't bother. I've really enjoyed BTCC, but once WSR realise the RWD 320's have had their day and run a different car I'm going to struggle to keep interest up (unless rumours of an independant F30 320 come to fruition).

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

I was commenting on this :

It doesn't matter whether Muller braked too early or Tarquini was rocketting behind him but if Tarquini gave the place back to Muller, why not Michelisz?

which was wrong. I never said he didnt had the place, I just said he didnt overtook him.

Yes Muller is a genius and it's not only because of FF car. Do you know where Muller as 5 or 7 title ? Andros trophee. Do you know what it is ? It's rally on ice so yeah. Maybe his background help a bit there. Ok FF car help him here, however if you take this + Monza, I dont know many driver who can pull those kind of stunt and stay in front.

Just to refresh your memory, we'll go back to Valencia again, now Race 2. Did you remember Menu bumped on to the back of D'aste in order to pass him for the lead? He put D'aste sideways but he gave the place back to him, and overtook him cleanly the next time around. Now, the question is. Why couldn't Tarquini?

Because it's WTCC and it's not F1. Contact like that are valid, if you check the contact between Menu and D'aste in Valencia, it was a far bigger bump also much more dangerous, much more like Muller VS Michelisz this time around. Both got penalty. However the contact between Michelisz and Tarquini was a bit less important apparently and those are valid. It was much worse between Huff and Muller last year in Marocco if you remember.

 

[Prince.M5]

I was commenting on this :
which was wrong. I never said he didnt had the place, I just said he didnt overtook him.

I may have went overboard saying Tarquini passed Muller but yes, I am terribly sorry for that.

Yes Muller is a genius and it's not only because of FF car. Do you know where Muller as 5 or 7 title ? Andros trophee. Do you know what it is ? It's rally on ice so yeah. Maybe his background help a bit there. Ok FF car help him here, however if you take this + Monza, I dont know many driver who can pull those kind of stunt and stay in front.

Whether his background helped or not, as I said this has been very well exampled in BTCC and can be seen from every single races! I'm not disrespecting his talent and abilities but honestly, that's nothing special with his save there regardless of his background. As long as you have a FWD car, there's a big fat chance to have it saved.

Because it's WTCC and it's not F1. Contact like that are valid, if you check the contact between Menu and D'aste in Valencia, it was a far bigger bump also much more dangerous, much more like Muller VS Michelisz this time around. Both got penalty. However the contact between Michelisz and Tarquini was a bit less important apparently and those are valid. It was much worse between Huff and Muller last year in Marocco if you remember.

Valid? Then why did Coronel received a black and white flag for doing so while Tarquini didn't, and not just that, he GAINED a position in doing so and not just that, he too put Michelisz sideways and almost put him off the track. HOW IS THAT VALID? Please answer that question, why? Why did Coronel received a black and white flag for doing almost the same thing as Tarquini did to Michelisz* except for that Tarquini wasn't as vulnerable to being taken out unlike Michelisz?

I've watched many touring car races before and I know which contact is acceptable and which is unacceptable. This one right here, is absolutely unacceptable.

* Edited

 

[MatskiMonk]

Several of Mullers Ice Racing titles were won in BMW's ,

Looked a bit like this \/

I've also met Yvan briefly - he's a really nice bloke.

 

[Prince.M5]

The more I think of it, the more I look at it, the more I thought of it to be pretty similar to Plato-Shedden incident in Donnington Park.

My conclusion is, Tarquini outbrake or delibrately make contact with Michelisz, almost put him sideways and ran wide - off the track. Tarquini unfairly overtook Michelisz and escaped without, at least a black and white flag.

I will blame this 50:50 to Tarquini for that contact and the stewards for being inconsistent in making decision. Ignore my previous post, I'll rest my case here with this conclusion.

 

[Ardius]

I've really enjoyed BTCC, but once WSR realise the RWD 320's have had their day and run a different car I'm going to struggle to keep interest up (unless rumours of an independant F30 320 come to fruition).

Just out of interest - how come you struggle to find interest simply because your favourite manufacturer isn't involved? Nothing wrong with that of course, but I find it hard to appreciate people supporting solely one driver, team or manufacturer and only being interested in them. Especially in motorsports where people can quickly fall out of the sport due to lack of results or money or both. I mean, if I had stuck to my original favourite team/manufacturer/driver I would stopped watching BTCC long, long ago as its happened so many times. Even now we've lost O'Neill, Turkington, Giovanardi, Nash, Thompson, etc.

Fortunately I guess BMW have always maintained a pretty strong presence in at least one major motorsport series.

There is also still (very small) hope BMW would add a little funding to an NGTC car as Toyota has done.

 

[fps_christian]

More importantly, does anybody know which racing sim Michelisz used to race before he got a shot in the Clio? Tried searching for it but couldn't find the right answer.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Just out of interest - how come you struggle to find interest simply because your favourite manufacturer isn't involved? Nothing wrong with that of course, but I find it hard to appreciate people supporting solely one driver, team or manufacturer and only being interested in them. Especially in motorsports where people can quickly fall out of the sport due to lack of results or money or both. I mean, if I had stuck to my original favourite team/manufacturer/driver I would stopped watching BTCC long, long ago as its happened so many times. Even now we've lost O'Neill, Turkington, Giovanardi, Nash, Thompson, etc.

Fortunately I guess BMW have always maintained a pretty strong presence in at least one major motorsport series.

There is also still (very small) hope BMW would add a little funding to an NGTC car as Toyota has done.

Well, If I had to give an analogy, it would be like being a Liverpool FC supporter and watching Liverpool vs. Manchester Utd, or watching Manchester Utd. vs. Man City.... the quality and content of what you're watching may remain the same, but there's only one of those two matches that will get you jumping around the sofa/lounge/house/pub or street (or sobbing uncontrollably)

I've been a life long BMW fan (well aged 10+), and it was BMW's that got me into motorsport in the first place, I am a BMW supporter and I take much greater joy in motorsport when I get to see them compete, because I have someone to cheer for. Same went for A1GP, I had no reason to be interested, but nationalistic pride kicked in, and I automatically wanted to see A1 team GB do well... I had no interest in NASCAR until JPM went there, but now I follow it (although this year I can't afford Premier Sports)... having someone to cheer for makes all the difference, whether they're winning or not (hence I tolerated F1's bull:censored: between 2000 and 2009!)

If there were no BMW's in BTCC I'd probably support Mat Jackson, simply because I met him in a pub and he was kind enough to show me around the garage and car at Rockingham in the Airwaves BMW days, but would I follow it as closely as I do now.. no. I dunno, maybe this sums up how I feel the best...

 

[Prince.M5]

Very nicely written and pretty much sums up myself too, MatskiMonk!

But still though, I do watch other races like GP2, V8 Supercars and many more just because of the 'racing' and not because I have someone to support and BMW. However, my priority goes to the race series that I have someone to support to.

EDIT:

More importantly, does anybody know which racing sim Michelisz used to race before he got a shot in the Clio? Tried searching for it but couldn't find the right answer.

According to this, he was a winner and obviously have played Grand Prix Legends and GTR.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Very nicely written and pretty much sums up myself too, MatskiMonk!

But still though, I do watch other races like GP2, V8 Supercars and many more just because of the 'racing' and not because I have someone to support and BMW. However, my priority goes to the race series that I have someone to support to.

InvincibleM5

I do also watch other motorsports, I still do watch F1, and if it's on I'll watch ALMS/WEC, Aussie V8's and Drifting, but it's only as a passing interest.

 

[Prince.M5]

Anyway, back on topic. This weekend is going to be exciting for LADA's fans and of course, James Thompson who both will make their first appearance of WTCC this season in Hungaroring this weekend. How fast or reliable they are is still to be determined but remember, this weekend is just going to be their 'measurement' weekend to see how far off are they from the competition and checking the reliability.

Exciting weekend in the bank, hopefully it won't be ruined by or a repeat of last weekend's idiocy.

 

[Prince.M5]

Lovely race. I knew it would come for Michelisz this weekend and it really happened. This win is real big! Just look at the crowd supporting him. Just magnificent!

I'm in tears as just like them. Thoroughly enjoyed it!

 

[MatskiMonk]

Lovely race. I knew it would come for Michelisz this weekend and it really happened. This win is real big! Just look at the crowd supporting him. Just magnificent!

I'm in tears as just like them. Thoroughly enjoyed it!