Toyota Discontinuing Scion Brand

[Tornado]

A front-wheel driven GT86 is what you're basically saying. Why would any car enthusiast have that over a rear-wheel driven version?

With the upcoming S-FR, Toyota makes literally anything in any range. I don't see the point in an MR-S or Celica revival.

You're saying that there's no room for Toyota to slot a sporty-ish compact car using a bunch of hotted up Corolla mechanicals (like what the last Celica and MR2 basically were) into the $10,000 price difference between a base Corolla and a base FR-S?

 

[Pupik]

So they're getting rid of the tC... what will the "daddy's little college girls" drive now?

Civics. Just as they did before 2003.

Well, the brand had it coming, but I'd imagine the models aren't disappearing immediately. I just don't see how the iA is going to be justified with a Yaris right next to it. Maybe it will help shape a partnership to make the Mazda 2 replace the future Yaris, or downsize the Corolla from once-Camry-like dimensions.

Personally, and in my lifetime:
my grandparents each had a Mercury
my parents once owned an Oldsmobile
my wife, a Geo and a Saturn
my sister, a Pontiac
my brother, a Plymouth

...so I knew it would happen to me eventually.

Dealers treated it as a Toyota at a Toyota store, it was made of Toyota, and pretty much acted like a Toyota. They seemed to run out charade rather quickly, and now they can just stop the extra advertising and promotional nonsense.

I think the hope was to sell the mono-spec units as a separate brand, but tying yourself to the youth market is a risk, since A) fluctuations in immediate trends B) mom and pop make the choice anyhow C) some just buy whatever heap, regardless of brand, they can afford D) you get a hand-me down E) young auto enthusiasts either have filthy rich parents F) or they blow their savings on a 10/15-year-old car that has more issues than their lady-friend.

The small-car market (no, I don't call them "segments", it's made-up crap) changed a lot since 2002, and the xB was an unexpected game changer of sorts. Then, they bloated it into a mini-minivan. But there wasn't much of anything to follow up on, until the FR-S. That said, the somewhat impractical sports car market is never going to last long unless you're always changing the product for the better.

I can confidently say the Pure Pricing didn't mean you couldn't haggle, it just removed the perceptions that everyone paid some odd sticker price that varied on a whim.

I'm at a Toyota dealer this week...I wonder if some of the cheesy promo swag is on fire sale. Nobody here seems shocked by the decision.

And thus, the sunset begins (although I don't think anyone really cares).

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

If only they would revive the Celica! With a curb weight undercutting the Toyobaru, a competent chassis like the T230, and a revvy NA 4-cylinder.

I wish this too, I really miss the Celica. It seemed like such a fun compact.

 

[Frenzyhero]

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[YSSMAN]

I'd be really interested to hear an oral history of the Scion brand at some point, I think it is possibly one of the most interesting things done by any automaker in the past 100 years - the failed Saturn, included.

I very fondly remember the launch of the brand ages ago, and I remember being completely sold on the ideas that they were trying to push. They were cars for people who wanted to express themselves, ready to customize out of the dealer, that offered a lot of content for your money compared to other compacts in the market. I really can't think of any brand that was able to craft such a cohesive brand identity that quickly, and honestly, for that long. All the way through the first generation models, and honestly, even after the initial wave of the second gen replacements, I think there was still something there for Scion. But I'd be really curious to know, from someone at Toyota, where things really started to go wrong.

By all accounts the xB was a pretty solid hit through most of its life, particularly with the Scion faithful. While the xA and later xD weren't nearly as successful as their boxy siblings, I very much think that they were interesting options in the market - if a little bit forgettable. As a mini-Matrix of sorts, I always preferred it as a city car to the Corolla-based one. But, the later xD really seemed to divide the market. The tC always garnered more praise than it deserved in my mind, but then again, it was one of a handful of options in the segment. The FR-S, well, everyone knows where I stand on that.

Can we draw the beginning of the end back to the poor reception of the xB and xD? The dumb way the brand rolled out early on in its life? Lack of regular refreshes by Toyota? The financial collapse and the end of the, "young folks buying cars out of college because who cares about student loans." trend? Yeesh.

At the very least, shifting each of the good models into the Toyota brand will mean that you can get them for give/take the market prices they should be. I'd certainly be interested to see if content shifts dramatically on each model, and where the pricing will go. While I think the iA give/take right where it should be, there's certainly room for a stripper model below it. Same with the iA, that'd be a great car with fewer standard options (taking it well under $20K). And being able to negotiate pricing on the FR-S at or below $23K? I'm betting sales will go up.

Who knows. Maybe Toyota is getting the message that they don't need a young/hip brand to bring the kids in, but instead, good models. Maybe the death of Scion is best for us all.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Speaking of Saturn, why has nobody else picked up on the plastic dent proof door panels? That was the best part about those cars.

 

[Northstar]

The only surprising thing about this decision is that it took so long. It seems like the brand got off to a good start, but Toyota let the line-up get stale and never felt the need to freshen it up until it was too late.

Speaking of Saturn, why has nobody else picked up on the plastic dent proof door panels? That was the best part about those cars.

IIRC they were expensive and a royal pain to work with.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Scion was targeted towards millennials. More and more millennials are choosing to not buy a car, partly due to their lack of finances, concern for the environment and that they rather rent a place near a city's core (thus making it less necessary to own a car) vs owning a suburban home.

The market they primarily targeted and increasingly rejected the notion of car ownership.

 

[Swagger897]

Scion was targeted towards millennials. More and more millennials are choosing to not buy a car, partly due to their lack of finances, concern for the environment and that they rather rent a place near a city's core (thus making it less necessary to own a car) vs owning a suburban home.

The market they primarily targeted and increasingly rejected the notion of car ownership.

Personally i'd have to say that's completely wrong, at least where I was raised from. It was hard to find someone who didn't have a car, truck, bike, and even now in college, it's hard to claim the same..

I'd leave it to the fact that like @Northstar said, the line went stale, and nothing came out of it from themselves. Rebadging is okay until you realize you've got a limp arm and you're better off cutting it off to help the rest of the body.

 

[Blitz24]

Personally i'd have to say that's completely wrong, at least where I was raised from. It was hard to find someone who didn't have a car, truck, bike, and even now in college, it's hard to claim the..

I'd leave it to the fact that like @Northstar said, the line went stale, and nothing came out of it from themselves. Rebadging is okay until you realize you've got a limp arm and you're better off cutting it off to help the rest of the body.

This.

Scion never really adjusted itself as the market moved either. Small cars were good during the speculators' spike of oil about 10 years ago, and the xB was a pseudo hit, but they tried nothing more. xA was meh, tC was decent but nothing to write home about. Then the lack of new products for nearly 5 years. I'm surprised it wasn't announced last year to avoid effectively lame ducking the iA and iM.

 

[Tornado]

Speaking of Saturn, why has nobody else picked up on the plastic dent proof door panels? That was the best part about those cars.

Hard to keep quality control up, very hard to paint properly, hard to properly align once placed on the body, you need to lay them on a full space frame which limits the ability of platform sharing to straight rebadges and raises initial costs, etc. I'm thinking someone is going to try them again to chase more MPG numbers, but I don't think they are ever going to be tried on the scale the GM committed to them in the 1980s with the Fiero, Dustbusters and Saturn.

 

[Blitz24]

Should we start taking bets on the next brand to get shuttered? I have a strange feeling that one of these 2 will get axed soon:
Mitsubishi
and this one is surprising but I can see it...
Chrysler.

 

[Swagger897]

Should we start taking bets on the next brand to get shuttered? I have a strange feeling that one of these 2 will get axed soon:
Mitsubishi
and this one is surprising but I can see it...
Chrysler.

Mitsubishi is more probably to pull out themselves.

When the Evo went, so does Mitsubishi themselves.. Chrysler on the other hand I don't see that happening at all. Dodge is doing good, Ram is doing good, Jeep is doing good, and Fiat is pretty happy atm. There's a 200 that passes by me at least once ever 3 miles I drive, and everything they have control of would be hard to see.

Lincoln is more likely to go first though... They go entirely, or Ford gives them the hand of god to do something..

 

[Northstar]

and this one is surprising but I can see it...
Chrysler.

I actually wouldn't be surprised by that considering pretty soon their line-up will consist of a mini van and an aging full-size car that's not as appealing as it's Dodge counterpart.

Lincoln is more likely to go first though... They go entirely, or Ford gives them the hand of god to do something..

Ford is making an insane investment into Lincoln, so they probably have 5 years at least before the brand gets discontinued.

Back on the Scion topic, apparently the brand was ran by 22 people, that should tell you how much focus Toyota put on the brand.

 

[Blitz24]

Mitsubishi is more probably to pull out themselves.

When the Evo went, so does Mitsubishi themselves.. Chrysler on the other hand I don't see that happening at all. Dodge is doing good, Ram is doing good, Jeep is doing good, and Fiat is pretty happy atm. There's a 200 that passes by me at least once ever 3 miles I drive, and everything they have control of would be hard to see.

Lincoln is more likely to go first though... They go entirely, or Ford gives them the hand of god to do something..

Reason I say Chrysler is that all it would take is to let Dodge keep the Caravan and Chrysler has no car that is unique to them.

 

[Ameer67]

Reason I say Chrysler is that all it would take is to let Dodge keep the Caravan and Chrysler has no car that is unique to them.

Dodge is not taking the Pacifica (the new minivan). Chrysler only.

 

[Pupik]

Scion was targeted towards millennials. More and more millennials are choosing to not buy a car, partly due to their lack of finances, concern for the environment and that they rather rent a place near a city's core (thus making it less necessary to own a car) vs owning a suburban home.

The market they primarily targeted and increasingly rejected the notion of car ownership.

I'd say it's only true for about 30% of the youth (aged 16-25) this country, if even that high a percentage. For one, if you live in the suburbs, bedroom communities, small towns, or in rural areas, there is limited infrastructure to promote mobility. There's almost no public transportation, and most jobs are located in larger cities, further rendering an automobile necessary. Sure, larger metropolises in the Northeastern US, along with Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (and a few other cities) offer a variety of public transportation, but that covers perhaps 10-15% of the US population. After that, most cities were designed (or redesigned) around the conveyance of motorized personal vehicles.

That's not to say other factors have not changed the reasons a younger generation aren't buying as many cars (although how many have been bought or co-signed by others is always a nebulous amount). There's factors such as the increased expenses in vehicle insurance, personal liability insurance, less jobs and total hours available for youngsters, and tweaks in driving age restrictions which have also tilted the figures.

Will the trend continue...it's possible, but it's not a sea change which occurs overnight. There could very well be a time in the next few decades where the automobile is no longer seen as a desirable, macho thing to aspire towards, and we're starting to see that in some ways...although that's just Madison Avenue pushing the pipe dream.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I'd say it's only true for about 30% of the youth (aged 16-25) this country, if even that high a percentage. For one, if you live in the suburbs, bedroom communities, small towns, or in rural areas, there is limited infrastructure to promote mobility. There's almost no public transportation, and most jobs are located in larger cities, further rendering an automobile necessary. Sure, larger metropolises in the Northeastern US, along with Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (and a few other cities) offer a variety of public transportation, but that covers perhaps 10-15% of the US population. After that, most cities were designed (or redesigned) around the conveyance of motorized personal vehicles.

That's not to say other factors have not changed the reasons a younger generation aren't buying as many cars (although how many have been bought or co-signed by others is always a nebulous amount). There's factors such as the increased expenses in vehicle insurance, personal liability insurance, less jobs and total hours available for youngsters, and tweaks in driving age restrictions which have also tilted the figures.

Will the trend continue...it's possible, but it's not a sea change which occurs overnight. There could very well be a time in the next few decades where the automobile is no longer seen as a desirable, macho thing to aspire towards, and we're starting to see that in some ways...although that's just Madison Avenue pushing the pipe dream.

Fair enough. I grew up in a large Canadian city, and the 90% of my cohort does not own a car, and frankly do not care about owning a car. I love cars and could probably afford one, but i dont have one as I can't justify it and its a relatively poor investment for me at this point. Not to mention car ownership has seem to gone through the roof.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

I didn't see Scion as much more than re-badged Toyotas. This doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[bremics]

You mean you don't see the point in a mid-engined sports car for the masses? You must not have ever experienced one.

I'm still waiting for a affordable mid-engined sports car. Still have my fingers crossed for that mid-engined Veloster.

 

[Robin]

Scion was targeted towards millennials. More and more millennials are choosing to not buy a car, partly due to their lack of finances, concern for the environment and that they rather rent a place near a city's core (thus making it less necessary to own a car) vs owning a suburban home.

The market they primarily targeted and increasingly rejected the notion of car ownership.

I can't speak for the US but in the UK this is totally the case. Good work is pretty much only in big cities like London and no one can reasonably own a car there! Because public transport is pretty much broken and unaffordable people will pay super high rents rather than commute. The car market literally is split between teenagers and people starting a family with a dead gap in between.

 

[synchromesh]

The other cars will be badged as Toyotas, so the only car being axed is the Tc and I certainly won't miss that.
I hate badge engineering. I've always said it doesn't work but car companies do it anyway.

 

[Blitz24]

The other cars will be badged as Toyotas, so the only car being axed is the Tc and I certainly won't miss that.
I hate badge engineering. I've always said it doesn't work but car companies do it anyway.

To be honest, all of Scion to begin with was badge engineering.

 

[Fastcarguy]

Im kind of sad to see the tC go. It was a bit of a guilty pleasure for me. I always thought they looked rather nice, and could have been really fun cars if they were RWD.

 

[CodeRedR51]

To be honest, all of Scion to begin with was badge engineering.

Except for the tC.

 

[Blitz24]

Except for the tC.

Their only original car, which then got watered down in it's second iteration.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

You must not have driven an MR2. If the Miata is like a happy puppy, the MR2 is like a dog pulling you along by its leash.

I would disagree - and yes, I own one; a 2003 ZZW30, to be exact.

I've had the pleasure of driving both of them, and IMO, your assessment is almost correct, but not quite. While the Miata has fantastic handling and a nice, peppy engine, the MR2 Spyder puts it to shame in both of those departments.

The thing that strikes me most about the MR2 Spyder is how much forgiveness it has. It's darn hard to outright screw up a corner in it, mostly because of the long wheelbase and the wide tires. In fact, I'd venture to say it was almost impossible for a veteran driver such as myself; there was one time I was taking the car down a twisty mountain pass, and the whole time I was deliberately trying to push it over the edge, but I couldn't. I pushed with everything I had, but short of trying stuff that was just outright stupid, I couldn't screw up if I tried. Yet the car always felt as if it was right on the edge - which is home for a mid-engined car such as the MR2 Spyder - and it felt glorious. The steering feel of that car is so detailed that you feel every little bump and dip in the road, and the same can be said for the pedals. The MR2 Spyder communicates to you so effectively that you always know what to do, and as a result, it feels far faster than it actually is, but you never feel out of control. The Miata, on the other hand, has a far lower limit-of-grip and somewhat less detailed road feel. You should try the MR2 Spyder in GT6. Yes, it's Standard, but it's a surprisingly good representation of what the real car feels like to drive.

So I'd say that if the Miata were an energetic puppy, the MR2 is a puppy who's much more energetic and is seriously considering tugging you along by the leash, but in the end it never would, even if you were to actively try to make it.

And if you have concerns about its "city car" aspect: my dad owns an NA Miata, which IIRC is almost the same as an NB in terms of practicality. I believe the gas mileage on the MR2 Spyder is slightly better despite having 10 more horsepower, and the storage space behind the seats is almost as big as a Miata's trunk (and that's not counting the MR2's actual trunk, which has a little more space on offer if you remove the spare), so if the Miata is considered a practical city car, the MR2 has it beat there too.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Their only original car, which then got watered down in it's second iteration.

Eh, I kind of liked the 2nd gen car. (minus the recent facelift)

 

[KinLM]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, don't have time to read through the whole thread..

I talked to somebody from a Toyota dealership last night (where I first heard about the scion news)

Rumor is that the FR-S will be rebadged the Celica and that Toyota will NOT be calling it the 86 in the states.

So for those who want a Celica revival, you (sorta) have it.

 

[Blitz24]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, don't have time to read through the whole thread..

I talked to somebody from a Toyota dealership last night (where I first heard about the scion news)

Rumor is that the FR-S will be rebadged the Celica and that Toyota will NOT be calling it the 86 in the states.

So for those who want a Celica revival, you (sorta) have it.

http://jalopnik.com/the-scion-fr-s-will-be-called-the-toyota-fr-s-instead-o-1756954363
So someone is wrong then.