Toyota Pirius world record

[MistaX]

Prius also holds the record as the first hybrid powered car to compete in and finish an FIA-sanctioned event when it ran in the 5,000 mile Midnight Sun to Red Sea Rally in 2002.

I'm not too sure about that.

Panoz Q9

I know the Q9 raced. It didn't make it to LeMan's. But I know that it raced somewhere.

Oh, for those of you that've never heard of the Q9, it was a hybrid Esperante GTR-1 made in 1998.
It was built to run LeMan's but failed to pre-qual due to electrical problems. Go figure.
But I'm 100% sure it ran at Road Atlanta in some series.
Oh, here we go:

"First running of the 10-hour Petit Le Mans event at Road Atlanta. Q9 was entered with the two factory GTR-1s and finished 2nd in the GT1 class - the first electric hybrid vehicle to race in an international event."
Is Petit LeMan's not run by the FIA?

A crappy diagram of it's electrical system:

 

[PublicSecrecy]

According to CnD, the Prius gets 57.5mpg, and the Insight gets 60mpg. Oooh wow 2.5mpg. And for a car that is more likely to break down too. I don't know much more about either of them than that, simply because I don't have the 18 hours a day to look up information to back up a retaliative response. In any event, I still think the Prius is a good buy, simply for the reliability, fuel economy, and low environmental impact. People have different needs M5Power, that's something you have to realize, and not all people fall into whataver classificaitons you're using to prove whatever logic you think you have. Logically, noone would EVER buy a sportscar. LOGICALLY noone would EVER buy a Rolex. LOGICALLY noone would ever climb Mount Everest. See, people often do things just because they can. Logically, you would realize that.

 

[MistaX]

Then, Logically someone would've bought the GM EV1.
I see that didn't happen.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Logically noone would ever buy a GM.

 

[1X83Z]

According to CnD, the Prius gets 57.5mpg, and the Insight gets 60mpg. Oooh wow 2.5mpg.

Do you know what you've just done?

You've tried to put a fact about normal cars past the person that knows all the facts about normal cars.

You've also quoted the combined figure for the Prius, and the city figure for the Insight - that's manipulating the statistics. Some might even call it outright lying - hope you didn't know better.

And for a car that is more likely to break down too.

This is completely made-up. Based on historical reliability, both vehicles have been recalled once, both in the 2001 model year. The Prius has also been around one year less than the Insight, meaning the Insight is more reliable - and very, very slightly.

People have different needs M5Power, that's something you have to realize, and not all people fall into whataver classificaitons you're using to prove whatever logic you think you have.

Can you prove me wrong using any known form of logic? The vehicle is solely purchased as a lifestyle statement by a certain group of people, PERIOD. I've compared the Prius and Corolla using every single known method of comparison and have conceded the sole category of fuel economy. Push to shove, you can come with all the statements like this that you want to, but you and Azuremen still are yet to come up with a single fact that proves that the Prius is any sort of decent vehicle.

I've conceded TIME and TIME AGAIN that it's purchased by liberals looking to make a lifestyle statement and NOTHING MORE - I've done the demographic research on the damn thing myself. I don't think you quite realise I do this for a living and know exactly what I'm talking about. So you can pretend I don't know what I'm saying, but between the two of you, you've come up with about six posts trying to tear down my position and get me mad, and the two of you combined have posted about six insults and zero facts. I've not yet insulted either of you - though the sheer incompetence is tearing at the fiber of my being - and I've ignored all your mis-statements and non-truths and focused on the thread's topic. Start doing the same

 

[iceburns288]

So... about that top speed record...

 

[PublicSecrecy]

From Car And Driver

Mileage, City:

Honda Insight: 57-60mpg
Toyota Prius: 59mpg

Base Price:

Honda Insight: $19,670
Toyota Prius: $20, 510

Warranties:
y/m
Honda Insight: 3/36,000
Toyota Prius: 5/60,000

Fuel Tank, Gallons:

Honda Insight: 10.6
Toyota Prius: 11.9

Interior Volume:

Front:
Honda Insight: 49 cubic feet
Toyota Prius: 52 cubic feet

Rear:
Honda Insight: N/A
Toyota Prius: 44

Cargo:
Honda Insight: 16 cubic feet
Toyota Prius: 16 cubic feet
________________________

Height:

Honda Insight: 53.3''
Toyota Prius: 58.1''

Anti-lock Brakes:

Honda Insight: Standard
Toyota Prius: Standard
________________________________________________________________

From Consumer Reports

Overall Ratings:

Large Sedans:

1. Toyota Avalon XLS
2. Buick Park Avenue Ultra
3. Lincoln town Car Signature
4. Pontiac Bonneville SE
5. Buick LeSabre Limited
6. Ford Crown Victoria LX
7. Mercury Grand Marquis LSE

Upscale Sedans:

1. Acura TL
2. BMW 330i
3. Lexus IS300
4. Lexus ES300
5. Mercedes-Benz C320
6. Lincoln LS Premium (V6)
7. Acura TSX
8. Audi A4 1.8T (CVT)
9. Audi A4 3.0 Quattro
10. Cadillac CTS
11. Saab 9-3 Aero
12. Infiniti G35
13. Jaguar S-Type 3.0
14. Saab 9-5 Arc
15. Volvo S60 2.5T

Family Sedans:

1. Volkswagen Passat GLX (V6)
2. Toyota Camry XLE (V6)
3. Honda Accord EX (V6)
4. Honda Accord EX (4-CYL)
5. Volkswagen Passat GLS (4-CYL)
6. Toyota Camry LE (4-CYL)
7. Subaru Legacy GT Limited
8. Nissan Maxima 3.5 SE
9. Nissan Altima 3.5 SE
10. Volkswagen Passat GLS TDI

#14. Toyota Prius

Honda Insight did not place.

Luxury Sedans:

1. Lexus LS430
2. Mercedes-Benz S430
3. Mercedes-Benz E320
4. BMW 530i
5. Cadillac DeVille DHS

Acura did not place.

Small Cars (Auto Transmission):

1. Mazda3 i
2. Ford Focus ZX4
3. Honda Civic EX
4. Toyota Prius
5. Honda Civic Hybrid
6. Toyota Corrolla LE
7. Volkswagen Jetti GLS TDI
8. Hyundai Elantra GLS
9. Kia Spectra EX
10. Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS

12. Scion xB
15. Scion xA

No Honda's past No 5.

Small Cars (Manual Transmission):

1. Mazda3 i
2. Toyota Echo
3. Kia Spectra EX
4. Scion xB
5. scion xA
6. Suzuki Forenza S
7. Honda Insight
8. Chevrolet Aveo LS

Fuel Efficient Cars:

1. Toyota Prius
2. Honda Civic Hybrid
3. Volkswagen Jetta GLS TDI
4. Toyota Echo (manual)
5. Honda Insight (manual)

Roadsters:

1. Porsche Boxster 2.7
2. Toyota MR2 Spyder
3. Audi TT Quattro Convertible
4. Ford Thunderbird Premium

What? No S2000? That's right, punk.

Sporty Cars:

8. Toyota Celica GT-S
11. Honda Civic Si
13. Acura RSX Type-S

There were no other Toyota, Lexus, Acura, or Honda's to place.

Wagons:

10. Toyota Matrix XR (AWD)
16. Scion xB

Honda did not place.

Minivans:

1. Toyota Sienna LE
2. Mazda MPV ES
3. Nissan Quest 3.5 SL
4. Chrysler Town And Country
5. Dodge Grand Caravan SXT

Honda did not place.

M5Power, I think you've gotten the idea. I have officially proved that Toyota, as a whole, and the Prius as an individual car, is better than Honda, and the Insight.

[/applause] Thank you. [/end applause]

[Edit] So what's wrong with liberals? got something against conservatives and republicans and communists too?

It appears the Prius sets more than one record. [Edit]

 

[iceburns288]

I wouldn't trust Consumer Reports...

Rating the T-bird over the S2000 doesn't help that either.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

I wouldn't trust Consumer Reports...

Rating the T-bird over the S2000 doesn't help that either.

Consumer Reports is a non-biased CONSUMER (the people who buy these things) based product reviewing system. It's been around for like a hundred years. It's the most trusted catalogue in terms of service, reviews and other crap like that.

From Consumer Reports issue: New Car Preview 2005

"Our test ratings, for instance, are based on the most comprehensive consumer-based auto-test program in the U.S. Every vehicle we buy is put through over 45 individual tests and evaluations, many of which are not performed by any other publication. We drive each vehicle for months, and thousands of miles, to see how they compare with their competition. At our specialized 327-acre auto-test facility, we push them to their braking and handling limits. We measure real-world fuel economy, measure luggage and cargo space, rate interior noise, guage comfort and convenience attributes, and much more.

In the vehicle ratings on page 10, you'll see which vehicles have scored best and worst overall in our tests, and how they stack up against their competitors. You'll also find ratings for many of the individual evaluations in the full-page profiles for CR tested models, which begin on page 18.

New Car Preview also gives you the first look at CR's latest reliability ratings. These are based on our 2004 annual survey of CR's more than 4 million magazine and online subscribers, which asks them about any serious problems they've experienced with their vehicles over the last 12 months. This year, we recieved a
massive 810,000 responses, which allow us to give you the most comprehensive reliability information available to consumers. "

Issue available on shelves until January 25th, 2005.

"EXPERT - INDEPENDANT - NONPROFIT"



PS

 

[Azuremen]

Consumer Reports is good. Many people I know, most of which are highly intelligent and successful, trust Consumer Reports. They are not biased, they just check to see what the facts are. Nice job finding that information there Public 👍

I want to take the Prius eletric motor and transplant it into something else.. light weight... and an MR2 or a Tercel even... sleeper if one could get the drivetrain setup correctly... 400 ft/lbs Tercel of doom...

 

[PublicSecrecy]

My mom has a Tercel. She swears by Toyota, and CR. My uncle Terry is an accountant and the only thing he trusts too is CR. They rate everything, as my mom once quoted "Oh they;ll review anything, from appliances to tampons.". As you could imagine I was shocked, but nonetheless.

 

[1X83Z]

From Consumer Reports

ConsumerReports is far-and-away the most biased journalistic source in existence. I include in this statement all tabloids and mid-Eastern newspapers and make no exaggerations. I absolutely refuse to argue with anyone who quotes from ConsumerReports for two reasons: first, people who quote or use ConsumerReports have absolutely no automotive knowledge or any car enthusiasm, and second, people who use ConsumerReports are blind to obvious biases the magazine has. In my life, I have never - EVER - seen a group of people so pro-Japanese than ConsumerReports. This includes the drifters forum.

Family sedans:

Honda Insight did not place.

The only person looking for a Honda Insight in a comparison of family sedans would be someone with absolutely no automotive knowledge. And only a person with absolutely no automotive knowledge would be quoting ConsumerReports.

Luxury Sedans:

Acura did not place.

Acura doesn't make a luxury sedan. Furthermore, why do you keep mentioning Honda and Acura? Do you think I'm biased towards them because I like their hybrid cars more? For God's sake - I work for one of their main competitors. You've really been misunderstand me to this high a degree? Just because I like a few cars more than others, you think I love Honda? Only a non-car enthusiast would draw these conclusions...

M5Power, I think you've gotten the idea. I have officially proved that Toyota, as a whole, and the Prius as an individual car, is better than Honda, and the Insight.

[/applause] Thank you. [/end applause]

You've proven absolutely nothing to me. Reviewing and test-driving these cars is my life and my job, and I won't be told which cars are better by a Japanese-biased consumer magazine (not a car magazine - a consumer magazine) and a fifteen-year-old who quotes it as fact. I have driven each and every new car on the market and will make any comparison of vehicles that stand by my assessments of those cars. More than ninety people have come to me in real life asking for a recommendation and sixty percent of those people have bought the vehicle I've recommended because my system of rating vehicles is unbiased.

 

[1X83Z]

The following post contains examples of ConsumerReports' absurd results, their pro-Japanese bias, and my fair, balanced assessment of vehicles. You may take notes.

1. Toyota Avalon XLS
2. Buick Park Avenue Ultra
3. Lincoln town Car Signature
4. Pontiac Bonneville SE
5. Buick LeSabre Limited
6. Ford Crown Victoria LX
7. Mercury Grand Marquis LSE

Nearly the entire segment is better than the Toyota Avalon, however I will mention just two vehicles.

Nissan Maxima SL vs. Toyota Avalon XLS
Maxima pros:
- $29300 compared to $30600 ($1300 cheaper)
- 265-horsepower 3.5-liter V6, compared to 210-horsepower 3-liter (55 more horsepower)
- More front head room (39.7" for Maxima vs. 38.7" for Avalon)
- More front leg room (43.6" for Maxima vs. 41.7" for Avalon)
- Quicker (0-60 in 7.1 for Maxima vs. 8.3 for Avalon)
- Standard features the Maxima SL has and the Avalon XLS does not:
1. Manumatic transmission (not available on Avalon XLS)
2. Curtain side airbags (not available on Avalon XLS)
3. Brake assist (not available on Avalon XLS)
4. Front-seat active head restraints (not available on Avalon XLS)
5. Telescoping steering wheel (not available on Avalon XLS)
6. Steering wheel-mounted audio controls (not available on Avalon XLS)
7. Split-folding rear seat (not available on Avalon XLS)
8. Glass roof panel (not available on Avalon XLS)
9. Automatic headlights (not available on Avalon XLS)
10. Cornering lights (not available on Avalon XLS)
11. 17" wheels (not available on Avalon XLS; 16" wheels are $580 options)
12. Leather upholstery ($580 option on Avalon XLS)
13. Heated front seats ($895 option on Avalon XLS)
14. In-dash 6-disc CD changer ($580 option on Avalon XLS)
15. Xenon headlights (not available on Avalon XLS)

Since I'm attempting to also prove that, aside from their idiotic conclusions, they're biased towards the Japanese, I offer for you the following comparison as well:

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (w/options) vs. Toyota Avalon XLS
Before this comparison I should mention that since the Grand Prix is so much cheaper than the Avalon, I'm going to put a few options on the Grand Prix to make the price more even. Those options are:
- Leather Trim Package ($665)
- Power sunroof ($895)
- Curtain side airbags ($395)
- Premium Audio Package ($695)
Now that that's done:
Grand Prix pros:
- $29200 compared to $30600 ($1400 cheaper)
- 260-horsepower supercharged 3.8-liter V6, compared to 210-horsepower 3-liter (50 more horsepower)
- More cargo volume (16.0 cu. ft. for Grand Prix vs. 15.9 for Avalon)
- More front head room (42.4" for Grand Prix vs. 41.7" for Avalon)
- Quicker (0-60 in 6.5 for Grand Prix vs. 8.3 for Avalon)
- Features that my optioned Grand Prix GTP has and the Avalon XLS does not:
1. Leather upholstery ($580 option on Avalon XLS)
2. Heated front seats ($895 option on Avalon XLS)
3. Power sunroof ($900 option on Avalon XLS)
4. Curtain side airbags (not available on Avalon XLS)
5. 17" alloy wheels (not available on Avalon XLS; 16" wheels are $580 options)
6. In-dash 6-disc CD changer ($580 option on Avalon XLS)

That should fairly well sum up for you their large sedan biases. In fact, the Toyota Avalon is only better than the Maxima and Grand Prix in fuel economy and rear seat room - while not having more features, or power, or front seat room, or performance than either of them - and yet it's still more expensive. Had I not added those features to the Grand Prix, the Avalon would be exactly $4000 more expensive - and have the same exact spec list. And don't even try to claim neither vehicle is a large sedan - the Grand Prix is 6.4 inches longer than the Avalon, and the Maxima is 1.6 inches longer.

Moving on...

1. Volkswagen Passat GLX (V6)
2. Toyota Camry XLE (V6)
3. Honda Accord EX (V6)
4. Honda Accord EX (4-CYL)
5. Volkswagen Passat GLS (4-CYL)
6. Toyota Camry LE (4-CYL)
7. Subaru Legacy GT Limited
8. Nissan Maxima 3.5 SE
9. Nissan Altima 3.5 SE
10. Volkswagen Passat GLS TDI

More trash, more bias. Fortunately this time it's not Japanese - but it's still a conclusion not one single person would reach if they actually had intelligence. Once again, I shall compare.

Honda Accord EX V6 vs. Volkswagen Passat GLX
Accord pros:
- $26400 compared to $29800 ($3400 cheaper)
- 240-horsepower 3-liter V6, compared to 190-horsepower 2.8-liter (50 more horsepower)
- More front head room (40.4" for Accord vs. 39.7" for Passat)
- More front leg room (42.6" for Accord vs. 41.5" for Passat)
- More rear head room (38.5" for Accord vs. 37.8" for Passat)
- More rear leg room (36.8" for Accord vs. 35.3" for Passat)
- Quicker (0-60 in 7.2 for Accord vs. 8.6 for Passat with Tiptronic)
- Better fuel economy (25mpg combined for Accord vs. 23mpg combined for Passat)
- Features that the Accord EX V6 has standard and the Passat GLX does not:
1. Automatic transmission ($1075 option on Passat GLX)
2. Dual-zone automatic climate control (not available on Passat GLX)
3. Satellite radio (not available on Passat GLX)
4. In-dash 6-disc CD changer (not available on Passat GLX; a trunk-mounted CD changer is a $499 option)
5. 17" wheels (not available on Passat GLX)

And again, to prove their anti-American bias:

Chevrolet Malibu LT vs. Volkswagen Passat GLX V6
Malibu pros:
- $23900 compared to $29800 ($5900 cheaper)
- 200-horsepower 3.5-liter V6, compared to 190-horsepower 2.8-liter V6 (10 more horsepower)
- More cargo volume (15.4 cu. ft. for Malibu vs. 15.0 for Passat)
- More front leg room (41.9" for Malibu vs. 41.5" for Passat)
- More rear leg room (38.5" for Malibu vs. 35.3" for Passat)
- Quicker (0-60 in 7.7 for Malibu vs. 8.6 for Passat with Tiptronic)
- Better fuel economy (27mpg combined for Malibu vs. 23mpg combined for Passat)
- Features that the Malibu LT has standard and the Passat GLX does not:
1. Remote starter (not available on Passat GLX)
2. Rear spoiler (not available on Passat GLX)

Indeed, the Passat has no holdouts over the Accord (and while I realise it's third on that list it should be first - the current Accord EX V6 sedan is the best Japanese vehicle ever built) and, while it's got slightly more stuff than a Malibu, it's an unbelievable $5900 more expensive, which is unheard of for a vehicle that's smaller inside, slower, less fuel efficient, and less powerful.

Next...

Small Cars (Auto Transmission):

1. Mazda3 i
2. Ford Focus ZX4
3. Honda Civic EX
4. Toyota Prius
5. Honda Civic Hybrid
6. Toyota Corrolla LE
7. Volkswagen Jetti GLS TDI
8. Hyundai Elantra GLS
9. Kia Spectra EX
10. Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS

Thank God - this time I don't have to compare an American car to highlight their Japanese bias. This time I'll just prove their anti-Korean bias and their idiotic conclusion that the Mazda 3i is the best car in this class.

Kia Spectra EX vs. Mazda 3i
Spectra pros:
- $14700 compared to $15400 ($700 cheaper)
- More cargo volume (12.2 cu. ft. for Spectra vs. 11.4 for 3)
- More front head room (40.0" for Spectra vs. 39.1" for 3)
- More front leg room (42.8" for Spectra vs. 41.9" for 3)
- More rear head room (38.2" for Spectra vs. 37.4" for 3)
- Quicker (0-60 in 9.1 for Spectra vs. 9.2 for 3)
- Features that the Spectra EX has standard and the 3i does not:
1. Air conditioning (standard on 3i automatic, so techically it's standard since this is the automatic class - but it's a $900 option on the manual)
2. Front side airbags ($2840 option on 3i manual; $1990 on 3i automatic)
3. Curtain side airbags ($2840 option on 3i manual; $1990 on 3i automatic)
4. Height-adjustable driver seat ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
5. Variable-intermittent wipers (Unavailable on 3i)
6. Automatic-off headlights (Unavailable on 3i)
7. Heated mirrors (Unavailable on 3i)
8. Power mirrors ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
9. Power windows ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
10. Power locks ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
11. Remote keyless entry ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
12. Fog lights (Unavailable on 3i)

Holy cow - even I didn't realise how awful the 3i was and how well-priced the Spectra was until this. It is not highway robbery but endangering human life to charge $2840 for side airbags as Mazda does in this vehicle. Not to mention the other absurd options prices whereas the Spectra comes without packages or stupid required options. Fuel economy is a tie, while the Spectra's bigger inside, cheaper, and filled with considerably more stuff.

Roadsters:

1. Porsche Boxster 2.7
2. Toyota MR2 Spyder
3. Audi TT Quattro Convertible
4. Ford Thunderbird Premium

More trash. MR2 Spyder? I don't think anyone BUT ConsumerReports would call that a good roadster - considering they lasted a whole five years and were purchased by about 10,000 unlucky souls. It's one of very few cars that made my 'rare used cars' list before being cancelled.

Anyway, yeah I'll take this one on too. Mustang GT convertible is better than Boxster 2.7 also but it's not out yet, so:

Nissan 350Z Touring Roadster vs. Porsche Boxster 2.7
350Z pros:
- $36200 compared to $42600 ($6400 cheaper)
- 287-horsepower 3.5-liter V6, compared to a 228-horsepower 2.7-liter flat-six (59 more horsepower)
- More front head room (39.2" for 350Z vs. 38.4" for Boxster)
- More front leg room (42.6" for 350Z vs. 41.6" for Boxster)
- Quicker (0-60 in 6.0 for 350Z vs. 6.2 for Boxster)
- Features than the 350Z Touring Roadster has that the Boxster does not:
1. Brake assist (Unavailable on Boxster)
2. Tilt steering wheel (Unavailable on Boxster)
3. 17" wheels ($1235 option on Boxster)
4. Traction control ($1235 option on Boxster)
5. Cruise control ($570 option on Boxster)
6. Dual power seats ($1550 option on Boxster)
7. Automatic day/night mirrors ($705 option on Boxster)
8. Xenon headlights ($1090 option on Boxster)
9. Leather upholstery ($2030 option on Boxster)
10. Heated seats ($410 option on Boxster)
11. In-dash 6-disc CD changer (Unavailable on Boxster; a glovebox-mounted changer is a $715 option)

Anyway - those are the three comparisons (and by three I mean what, six? Eight?) that I'm going to do just to show you how wrong your beloved magazine is. Why don't you mail them in and see what ConsumerReports has to say about their incompetence? I agree with their conclusions on "upscale sedan" (though I've divided that category into two categories for easier recommendations - still, the Acura TL is definitely a star) and minivan, though for me it's a tossup between Sienna LE and Odyssey LX. You didn't give me the rest of the details on any of the rest of the categories so I can't unfortunately tear them apart. Oh darn.

When you parrot magazines, you run the risk of being very wrong, unless you know every single method the magazine uses. I personally have my own methods and they stand up, one hundred percent of the time, because I'm damn good at what I do. I don't think you quite comprehend that I know exactly what I'm talking about. This isn't a hobby for me - I get paid to know cars.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Five simple words: Not according to the public.
Three even simpler words: Get a Life.

[Edit] I posted that because A) you said: "Guess which vehicle has the smallest gas tank on the North American market." and then went on to say "You: Toyota Prius?
Me: CORRECT!!!!"

That would be true if the Insight didn't have a smalled gas tank. Get YOUR facts strait.

"...The Prius is a completely different story. Yes, the idea's neat, the idea's interesting. That doesn't mean the vehicle itself is any good."

Apparently the public thinks it is.

"...I'm too intelligent to see through the thing's awful value..."

Oh? Are you?
Honda Insight: 57-60mpg
Toyota Prius: 59mpg

Warranties:
y/m
Honda Insight: 3/36,000
Toyota Prius: 5/60,000


Fuel Tank, Gallons:

Honda Insight: 10.6
Toyota Prius: 11.9

Interior Volume:

Front:
Honda Insight: 49 cubic feet
Toyota Prius: 52 cubic feet

Hmm...So, if you're so smart, and the prius is such a crappy car...why do all the "facts" (which no you haven't consistently used, wheres the proof that CR is the most biased reviewer, smart guy?) point to it as the better buy. My original argument was that the Prius is better than the Insight, and that Toyota overall is better than Honda- although by a hair.

 

[Ev0]

Double post, ignore.

 

[Ev0]

Kia Spectra EX vs. Mazda 3i
Spectra pros:
- $14700 compared to $15400 ($700 cheaper)
- More cargo volume (12.2 cu. ft. for Spectra vs. 11.4 for 3)
- More front head room (40.0" for Spectra vs. 39.1" for 3)
- More front leg room (42.8" for Spectra vs. 41.9" for 3)
- More rear head room (38.2" for Spectra vs. 37.4" for 3)
- Quicker (0-60 in 9.1 for Spectra vs. 9.2 for 3)
- Features that the Spectra EX has standard and the 3i does not:
1. Air conditioning (standard on 3i automatic, so techically it's standard since this is the automatic class - but it's a $900 option on the manual)
2. Front side airbags ($2840 option on 3i manual; $1990 on 3i automatic)
3. Curtain side airbags ($2840 option on 3i manual; $1990 on 3i automatic)
4. Height-adjustable driver seat ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
5. Variable-intermittent wipers (Unavailable on 3i)
6. Automatic-off headlights (Unavailable on 3i)
7. Heated mirrors (Unavailable on 3i)
8. Power mirrors ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
9. Power windows ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
10. Power locks ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
11. Remote keyless entry ($2040 option on 3i manual; $1190 on 3i automatic)
12. Fog lights (Unavailable on 3i)

Holy cow - even I didn't realise how awful the 3i was and how well-priced the Spectra was until this. It is not highway robbery but endangering human life to charge $2840 for side airbags as Mazda does in this vehicle. Not to mention the other absurd options prices whereas the Spectra comes without packages or stupid required options. Fuel economy is a tie, while the Spectra's bigger inside, cheaper, and filled with considerably more stuff.

Although I agree completely with the other comparisons, keep in mind that Kias have terrible reliability. They use cheap, low quality parts that are prone to breakdown, and as a result, are one of the worst manufacturers in terms of reliability.

Three even simpler words: Get a Life.

Did you not read what M5 wrote?

This isn't a hobby for me - I get paid to know cars.

This is his life. If he doesn't know what he's talking about in this sort of situation, he'd be out of a job pretty damn quickly.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Well, Doug, here's what I have to say:


Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (w/options) vs. Toyota Avalon XLS

Pontiac is the obviously well known "performance" division of GM.

Grand Prix:
-260-horsepower supercharged 3.8-liter V6, compared to 210-horsepower 3-liter (50 more horsepower)
- Leather Trim Package ($665)
- Power sunroof ($895)
- Curtain side airbags ($395)
- Premium Audio Package ($695)

Avalon XLS


1. Leather upholstery ($580 option on Avalon XLS) - AH? HELLO? $665 FOR THE GP
2. Heated front seats ($895 option on Avalon XLS) How much did that option cost?
3. Power sunroof ($900 option on Avalon XLS) $5 difference...wow
4. Curtain side airbags (not available on Avalon XLS)
5. 17" alloy wheels (not available on Avalon XLS; 16" wheels are $580 options) Yes, lets make the car slower and force it to use more torque to turn a heavier and larger wheel.
6. In-dash 6-disc CD changer ($580 option on Avalon XLS)

Have you ever torn apart a car? It took a class of 20 people 2 weeks to tear apart a 2002 Toyota Sienna. It took us 4 days to tear apart a 1989 Cadillac Brougham Luxury. Now theorhetically speaking, shouldn't an expensive luxury car made by the mighty GM be able to at least somewhat stand up to a bunch of 15 yr olds with pry bars? And note that the hp/litre of the Grand Prix is approx 68.something
and the Toyota's comes to 70. With all things considered (NOT STATISTICS- Certain things look good on paper, but when thouroughly examined things can surprise you) a Toyota is undoubtedly better. Just face it. Theres features and options, but if they don't work, or will crap out on you so many miles or years down the line, then whats the point? That's what's up with Kia. Sure it has a lot of options, but you're practically putting your life on the line to use them. That's where the differece between Japanese and American cars come in hand. Japanese cars are synonamous with quality. American cars are synonamous with patriotism, and power. European cars are synonamous with technology. And no I'm not going to waste 2 hours trying to prove it. I have better things to do with my time than argue with some know-it-all twit.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Well, Doug, here's what I have to say:


Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (w/options) vs. Toyota Avalon XLS

Pontiac is the obviously well known "performance" division of GM.

Grand Prix:
-260-horsepower supercharged 3.8-liter V6, compared to 210-horsepower 3-liter (50 more horsepower)
- Leather Trim Package ($665)
- Power sunroof ($895)
- Curtain side airbags ($395)
- Premium Audio Package ($695)

Avalon XLS


1. Leather upholstery ($580 option on Avalon XLS) - AH? HELLO? $665 FOR THE GP
2. Heated front seats ($895 option on Avalon XLS) How much did that option cost?
3. Power sunroof ($900 option on Avalon XLS) $5 difference...wow
4. Curtain side airbags (not available on Avalon XLS)
5. 17" alloy wheels (not available on Avalon XLS; 16" wheels are $580 options) Yes, lets make the car slower and force it to use more torque to turn a heavier and larger wheel.
6. In-dash 6-disc CD changer ($580 option on Avalon XLS)

He said he was adding those options, since the Avalon has a higher price and it still is higher after the options are added to the Grand Prix.

Obviously the car has enough power to handle 17" wheels as it goes to 60, nearly 2 seconds faster. Sure would be great if every car had 13" wheels.

Have you ever torn apart a car? It took a class of 20 people 2 weeks to tear apart a 2002 Toyota Sienna. It took us 4 days to tear apart a 1989 Cadillac Brougham Luxury. Now theorhetically speaking, shouldn't an expensive luxury car made by the mighty GM be able to at least somewhat stand up to a bunch of 15 yr olds with pry bars? And note that the hp/litre of the Grand Prix is approx 68.something
and the Toyota's comes to 70. With all things considered (NOT STATISTICS- Certain things look good on paper, but when thouroughly examined things can surprise you) a Toyota is undoubtedly better. Just face it. Theres features and options, but if they don't work, or will crap out on you so many miles or years down the line, then whats the point? That's what's up with Kia. Sure it has a lot of options, but you're practically putting your life on the line to use them. That's where the differece between Japanese and American cars come in hand. Japanese cars are synonamous with quality. American cars are synonamous with patriotism, and power. European cars are synonamous with technology. And no I'm not going to waste 2 hours trying to prove it. I have better things to do with my time than argue with some know-it-all twit.

You should take into account that the car is 13 years older. It probably was a little rusty and also smaller than a minivan. It also depends on how much time you spent each day. According to my look on the it, the Cadillac did "somewhat stand up".

So now American car manufacturers can't add more power to compete with the foreign manufacturers? It seems like you're a little narrow-minded.

 

[1X83Z]

Five simple words: Not according to the public.
Three even simpler words: Get a Life.

[Edit] I posted that because A) you said: "Guess which vehicle has the smallest gas tank on the North American market." and then went on to say "You: Toyota Prius?
Me: CORRECT!!!!"

That would be true if the Insight didn't have a smalled gas tank. Get YOUR facts strait.

"...The Prius is a completely different story. Yes, the idea's neat, the idea's interesting. That doesn't mean the vehicle itself is any good."

Apparently the public thinks it is.

"...I'm too intelligent to see through the thing's awful value..."

Oh? Are you?
Honda Insight: 57-60mpg
Toyota Prius: 59mpg

Warranties:
y/m
Honda Insight: 3/36,000
Toyota Prius: 5/60,000


Fuel Tank, Gallons:

Honda Insight: 10.6
Toyota Prius: 11.9

Interior Volume:

Front:
Honda Insight: 49 cubic feet
Toyota Prius: 52 cubic feet

Hmm...So, if you're so smart, and the prius is such a crappy car...why do all the "facts" (which no you haven't consistently used, wheres the proof that CR is the most biased reviewer, smart guy?) point to it as the better buy. My original argument was that the Prius is better than the Insight, and that Toyota overall is better than Honda- although by a hair.

I think this is the most defensive post I've ever seen. Five simple words: put it on the boooooard!!!

Don't worry PublicSecrecy - you only served in this thread to further boost my ego.

wheres the proof that CR is the most biased reviewer, smart guy?)

I'm fairly sure I've just laid it out.

Although I agree completely with the other comparisons, keep in mind that Kias have terrible reliability. They use cheap, low quality parts that are prone to breakdown, and as a result, are one of the worst manufacturers in terms of reliability.

Indeed - and that model, which I mainly tout to parents looking to buy a safe new car for their first-time drivers - failed its IIHS crash test about two weeks ago. That's two strikes for me in an extremely competitive segment - usually now I recommend the Hyundai Elantra GLS instead (which earned the best possible rating on the same crash test). Good call.

 

[1X83Z]

1. Leather upholstery ($580 option on Avalon XLS) - AH? HELLO? $665 FOR THE GP
2. Heated front seats ($895 option on Avalon XLS) How much did that option cost?
3. Power sunroof ($900 option on Avalon XLS) $5 difference...wow

You clearly don't understand - after I added all those options, the Grand Prix was still considerably cheaper - and it was more powerful, now better-specced, quicker, and better-performing - plus it had a bigger trunk.

Have you ever torn apart a car? It took a class of 20 people 2 weeks to tear apart a 2002 Toyota Sienna. It took us 4 days to tear apart a 1989 Cadillac Brougham Luxury

Uh... so because it took people a while to "tear apart" a Sienna, and "us" "tore apart" a Fleetwood in half a week, the Grand Prix is a worse car than... an Avalon? Scary!

And note that the hp/litre of the Grand Prix is approx 68.something
and the Toyota's comes to 70.

Horsepower per liter is one of the stupider stats out there - it's completely worthless. In fact, in this case I prefer less power per liter because it clearly makes the vehicle cheaper, while still getting more total power. And the difference is negligible anyway if you car about those things.

With all things considered (NOT STATISTICS) a Toyota is undoubtedly better. Just face it.

I think you've just proven me right. Let's look past statistics and 'just face' that the Toyota is 'undoubtedly' better. Or, we can focus on statistics, put aside bias, and admit that CR draws incorrect conclusions. Sorry.

And no I'm not going to waste 2 hours trying to prove it. I have better things to do with my time than argue with some know-it-all twit.

And a second time.

I'm telling you, my man - you can use CR if you're a woman with a Tercel, or an accountant - but for people who actually give two damns about cars, you can do much, much better. And you've just seen how

Obviously the car has enough power to handle 17" wheels as it goes to 60, nearly 2 seconds faster. Sure would be great if every car had 13" wheels.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

I do understand, but my point stands. Car companies find differnet ways of making money. For instance, GM builds a ****ty car for low price, and then gives you tons of rather expensive options. Toyota/Honda builds a great car for slighlty more and then gives you a bunch of options for slightly cheaper. European manufacturers give expensive **** with expensive options just for the helluva it.

 

[1X83Z]

I do understand, but my point stands.

Not even at all. Don't worry about it though - I'm stoked. It doesn't come very frequently that you get to successfully take down the viewpoints of an awful consumer magazine!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

That was a... thorough look into things, M5. The only thing I could pick out as being kind of pointless is the mention that the Passat doesn't have a rear spoiler option. I don't personally see that as a matter of importance on front-wheel drive, four-door sedans. Also, the Malibu's 10 extra horsepower is not a very big deal; of more importance, I would think, is the extra 0.7 or so litres of displacement the engine has, giving the driver a broader amount of torque to be used.

I think the whole "reliability" argument has been muddled, too. There's a car's actual reliability, and then the brand's general percieved reliability. People will pay for the latter, but only receive the former. It explains CR's love of the Passat; VW seems to give off that feeling of reliability to potential buyers, yet of all the people I know who own a current VW, I haven't heard anything but complaints about repeated problems. I know I'm trying to make a more thought-out point right here, but it's nearly 5am and I'm still recovering from some New Year's antics .

Take for example Hyundai. 10 years ago, they were looked at the same way Japanese cars were looked at when they first showed up in North America; cheap, tinny, disposeable transport. Now, they're rapidly improving their quality. Speaking of which; my dad just purchased a new Elantra GLS for that exact reason. He was looking for a car in that segment and couldn't find anything else that mixed value, quality, and a good warranty as well as the Hyundai. It's not a bad car to drive, either. So it's nice to know there's others out there who approve of the Elantra.

(EDIT) Was sufficiently bored:

Small Cars (Auto Transmission):

1. Mazda3 i
2. Ford Focus ZX4
3. Honda Civic EX
4. Toyota Prius
5. Honda Civic Hybrid
6. Toyota Corrolla LE
7. Volkswagen Jetti GLS TDI
8. Hyundai Elantra GLS
9. Kia Spectra EX
10. Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS

12. Scion xB
15. Scion xA

No Honda's past No 5.

Roadsters:

1. Porsche Boxster 2.7
2. Toyota MR2 Spyder
3. Audi TT Quattro Convertible
4. Ford Thunderbird Premium

What? No S2000? That's right, punk.

Sporty Cars:

8. Toyota Celica GT-S
11. Honda Civic Si
13. Acura RSX Type-S

There were no other Toyota, Lexus, Acura, or Honda's to place.

Wagons:

10. Toyota Matrix XR (AWD)
16. Scion xB

Honda did not place.

Small Cars (Auto Tranny): Learn to count, I see one at number three.

Roadsters: No Miata? The ultimate poser-mobile, the Golf-underneath TT? Lastly, the T-bird, quite possibly the most over-priced car on the market (not to mention an also-ran after it's over-hyped debut). How they failed to include the S2000 is frightening. Well, until I realize it's CR.

Sporty Cars: The Si places above the Type-S in a category with "Sporty" in the title? The Si is widely regarded as being a worse car than the previous Si when the discussion turns to sportiness, while the Type-S is an improvement on the old Integra GS-R. What are they thinking?

Wagons: Of course Honda doesn't place. It doesn't have a wagon. That's the equivalent of me pointing out Ferrari hasn't placed in the latest family sedan comparison.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Small Cars (Auto Tranny): Learn to count, I see one at number three.

Roadsters: No Miata? The ultimate poser-mobile, the Golf-underneath TT? Lastly, the T-bird, quite possibly the most over-priced car on the market (not to mention an also-ran after it's over-hyped debut). How they failed to include the S2000 is frightening. Well, until I realize it's CR.

I believe for the small cars he was saying past as in after #5.

I also noticed that they missed the Miata in there.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

That may well be a possibility... but why point out how the Hondas in that category didn't do any worse than fifth, when the rest of his post was obviously anti-Honda?

 

[1X83Z]

That was a... thorough look into things, M5. The only thing I could pick out as being kind of pointless is the mention that the Passat doesn't have a rear spoiler option. I don't personally see that as a matter of importance on front-wheel drive, four-door sedans. Also, the Malibu's 10 extra horsepower is not a very big deal; of more importance, I would think, is the extra 0.7 or so litres of displacement the engine has, giving the driver a broader amount of torque to be used.

Indeed - but my theory on this in the past has been that since the spoiler and slight horsepower gains were there, I'd be a fool not to use them, pointless though they may be. You never know - PublicSecrecy could love spoilers to death and begin to hate the Passat and ConsumerReports based on just that one feature.

yet of all the people I know who own a current VW, I haven't heard anything but complaints about repeated problems.

Agreed - though most of Volkswagen's American problems come with the vehicles built outside of Germany - the Jetta sedan and Golf being their two worst offenders. Meanwhile, the German-built models - the Passat, Jetta wagon, Phaeton, and maybe Touareg (which I've heard is built in Slovakia but has a German VIN) - do significantly better. However, the Jetta is by far their most popular vehicle in the US market, so its poor reliability is unacceptable and dillutes the brand name. I've never seen and don't care to see ConsumerReports's statistics on the matter but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they consider Passat to be more reliable than the Jetta.

Speaking of which; my dad just purchased a new Elantra GLS for that exact reason. He was looking for a car in that segment and couldn't find anything else that mixed value, quality, and a good warranty as well as the Hyundai. It's not a bad car to drive, either. So it's nice to know there's others out there who approve of the Elantra.

👍 Elantra GLS is either the best or the second-best car in that class, depending on how much weight you give to the Spectra's failing rating in its crash test. I wish it had a little more power, though for its class, 138 is actually a great number - more than the Ford Focus, Mitsubishi Lancer, Honda Civic, and Toyota Corolla, but I think they'd sell more if it had even a ten percent gain to look better on paper - 152hp would rival my third-favorite car in that class, the Suzuki Aerio, which has seen sales increase dramatically (over its predecessor, the Suzuki Esteem) due partly to the power figure increase.

Wagons: Of course Honda doesn't place. It doesn't have a wagon. That's the equivalent of me pointing out Ferrari hasn't placed in the latest family sedan comparison.

 

[ND4SPD]

Wow, , can't we just forget this ltitle argument and get on with things?

 

[sn00pie]

If you know anything about logic, you know nothing about people, or the reasons they buy a car. Why on earth do people like Ferraris? Or buy SUVs? What's the point of driving a Smart? Why don't some people take a bicycle for a 2 mile drive to get milk from the supermarket? Really, you're so proud of your little bit of math, but you're incredibly narrow minded.

I'll share a short conversation I have had with my mother, this was only a few days ago.

Hallo!
-- Hoi mam.
Zeg, ik zag een leuke auto vandaag!
-- Oh ja?
Ja! Het was net een ruimteautootje! Echt een schatje!

Two days later I found a brochure to the Smart Roadster on the kitchen table.

My mother bought a '04 Mini on the grounds of it being cute. She drives an MG-F because it looks funny. She now wants a Smart Roadster because it reminds her of a space car.

 

[iceburns288]

Anyone read that Road and Track article about this? I thought it was neat, interesting, and informative.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Why the hell would I love spoilers to death?
I'm not anti-Honda, I was Pro-Toyota in that particular debate. My point was, was that the Prius is not the worst car to be manufacture din the past 10 years, that M5Power mad eit out to be. As for the "No Honda's Past No 5" bit, I was just refferring to the fact that no other Honda's mad eit on the list except 3 and 5. Meaning that while 2 Honda's placed, so did like 5 Toyota's.
Out of curiousity M5, what do you do for a living? Marketing of some sort?

I have still yet to see any proof that CR has a heavy bias towards certain car companies.