Toyota Pirius world record

[Azuremen]

I've just stopped caring what he thinks... he has some knowledge, but he tries to make what are his opinions into fact, and then tries to prove other people's opinions wrong.

I had my father look at his posts, a Ph.D physcist and was a top debater for Rice in Texas, along with at the University of Texas. He basically said M5's argument was based on random "facts" and more of an opinion. Additionally, its clear M5 himself is extremely biased... so I've just gone to ignoring him. I recommend a similar course of action, cause he will also think that he is right, because he is too narrow minded to realize that people have opinions.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

His profession could have something to do with that, altohugh i'm still not clear as to what it is. Whatever it is though he sure knows how to manipulate facts so that they support his side.

 

[sn00pie]

I've just stopped caring what he thinks... he has some knowledge, but he tries to make what are his opinions into fact, and then tries to prove other people's opinions wrong.

I had my father look at his posts, a Ph.D physcist and was a top debater for Rice in Texas, along with at the University of Texas. He basically said M5's argument was based on random "facts" and more of an opinion. Additionally, its clear M5 himself is extremely biased... so I've just gone to ignoring him. I recommend a similar course of action, cause he will also think that he is right, because he is too narrow minded to realize that people have opinions.

Not Rice "Best academic bang for your buck" University, right?

So go out and disprove the facts displayed by M5Power. If you cannot do this, it can mean two things:

a) your research is off
b) you're wrong

Having your father, a Ph. D. physicist, and a top debater for the University crowned winner of Seventeen's The 50 Coolest Colleges in 2002 and 2nd in nation in recruiting and retaining Hispanic students in 2004, review an argument you've had on a videogame website with a person you've never met... man - I even forgot what I was going to say, it's that pathetic.

His profession could have something to do with that, altohugh i'm still not clear as to what it is. Whatever it is though he sure knows how to manipulate facts so that they support his side.

How exactly does one manipulate facts? They're facts, that's their job, they fact.

"Manipulated facts" however are lies. That means you've just made quite a bold statement: "all M5Power's facts are wrong - and therefore lies". That's quite offending, especially when you can't back it up. No?

 

[pimp racer]

Not Rice "Best academic bang for your buck" University, right?

So go out and disprove the facts displayed by M5Power. If you cannot do this, it can mean two things:

a) your research is off
b) you're wrong

Having your father, a Ph. D. physicist, and a top debater for the University crowned winner of Seventeen's The 50 Coolest Colleges in 2002 and 2nd in nation in recruiting and retaining Hispanic students in 2004, review an argument you've had on a videogame website with a person you've never met... man - I even forgot what I was going to say, it's that pathetic.

good one. 👍 Someone asked what his job or something was? Trend researcher for Nissan.

 

[Azuremen]

I wanted to have some one double check the argument style... my father being the only person of any decent intelligence readily available.

BTW, he was at Rice in the 50's, when it was a scholar ship only school, and a bit more on the presitiguous side.

And M5's "facts" have been proven wrong... the gas tank beign the first example that comes to mind.

However, its not whether his facts are correct or not, its his approach on presenting them. His attitude is what is annoying. The Prius is not trash - that is his opinion, not a fact. In my opinion, almost are Mercedes are over rated, over priced cars, that you buy for the name alone. To me, Benz is crap. To me, Cadillacs are crap. Its called an opinion. My reasons for disliking them are based on facts I know in regard to the cars. Other people may find the name worth buying the car. Not logical, but who is when it comes to buying a car.

That is my point - M5 tries to prove an opinion that is his own, and claims everyone else is wrong. Its not whether his facts are correct, its whether he understands people can have different points of view.

And being a trend researcher certainly doesn't mean he knows everything.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

"all M5Power's facts are wrong - and therefore lies"

Now did I ever say that? Manipulating facts can be interpreted any way, although I'm not sure which way you've interpreted that one. When i say "manipulating facts" I mean that he (may or may not have) selectively chooses certain facts to put in, and the others that prove it wrong he leaves out, that kind of thing. It could be something like "this is the cheapest car on the market it has so many options warranties blah blah blah" and then leave out "oh, btw, it blows up if you rev it past 4000rpm". WHO THE EFF would ever get somehting like that? That's generally the argument i pose with him, being that he chooses cars with cheap prices many options, more power, etc. but what he doesn't consider is "will the car even last if i drive it?" or "do the power windows even work after 1000 ups'n'downs?", which is where CR comes in. its CONSUMER REPORTS, meaning they take what the people who have actually driven these things say and use it in their review. From 810,000 people no less.

[Edit] "all M5Power's facts are wrong - and therefore lies"

I thought they paid him to know everything? Shouldn't he be out of a job now? [Edit]

 

[pimp racer]

And being a trend researcher certainly doesn't mean he knows everything.

I think thats what he is since thats what is in his profile.

 

[sn00pie]

And M5's "facts" have been proven wrong... the gas tank beign the first example that comes to mind.

Hey! Cool! But can you show me? Because "the gas tank" is a little too vague a bit of info for me.

However, its not whether his facts are correct or not, its his approach on presenting them. His attitude is what is annoying. The Prius is not trash - that is his opinion, not a fact. In my opinion, almost are Mercedes are over rated, over priced cars, that you buy for the name alone. To me, Benz is crap. To me, Cadillacs are crap. Its called an opinion. My reasons for disliking them are based on facts I know in regard to the cars. Other people may find the name worth buying the car. Not logical, but who is when it comes to buying a car.

I'll tell you about Mr. Celsius, Mr. Celsius used to argue about temperatures with his fellow town residents. He used to say: "Gee! My fellow town residents! It's really cold! It's bloody freezing! then the residents would say: "C'mon Mr. Celsius, get off ye high horse post haste for it's not bloody cold by a long shot, nor is it freezing, no sir! C'est ne pas frois - fromage tout le jours!

So Mr. Celsius created a chart with matching thermometer. So now he could say in respons to his fellow townsmen when they would argue that he presented opinion as fact: "Just ye check my thermometer - and matching chart, arsefaces!

And the townspeople were in awe.

Fin.

And being a trend researcher certainly doesn't mean he knows everything.

"all M5Power's facts are wrong - and therefore lies"

Now did I ever say that? Manipulating facts can be interpreted any way, although I'm not sure which way you've interpreted that one. When i say "manipulating facts" I mean that he (may or may not have) selectively chooses certain facts to put in, and the others that prove it wrong he leaves out, that kind of thing. It could be something like "this is the cheapest car on the market it has so many options warranties blah blah blah" and then leave out "oh, btw, it blows up if you rev it past 4000rpm". WHO THE EFF would ever get somehting like that? That's generally the argument i pose with him, being that he chooses cars with cheap prices many options, more power, etc. but what he doesn't consider is "will the car even last if i drive it?" or "do the power windows even work after 1000 ups'n'downs?", which is where CR comes in. its CONSUMER REPORTS, meaning they take what the people who have actually driven these things say and use it in their review. From 810,000 people no less.

I thought they paid him to know everything? Shouldn't he be out of a job now?

Selective choice is like knowingly acknowledging, but who cares?

This is good! Now all you need to do is provide us with proof of your superior position over M5Power in understanding and knowing the discussed cars' physique, and I'll TOTALLY grant you this argument! And don't say Consumer Reports, because my mom thinks she drives a fast car too. We are cooler than that, buddy. I'm looking for some expertise - not novice... ise by Audi to Zagato fanboyistic CR-whores.

 

[pimp racer]

*EDIT* I am totally confused GTP is acting very strange all of a sudden.


WTF? GTP is weird right now.
Ok back to what I was saying. Snoopie I think he was talking about this -

Hey! Cool! But can you show me? Because "the gas tank" is a little too vague of info for me.

You lazy bum! J/P
I think he was talking about this not sure-

So you're going to stand by the statement that a cab driver drove a Prius 400,000km?

Okay. I'm going to lay out for you why the Toyota Prius is one of the worst cars in automotive history.

A Toyota Prius starts at $20300. A Toyota Corolla starts at $13700. That's the old $6600 price difference. So you're saying: sure, but the Prius makes it up in fuel savings! Okay. Let's pretend gasoline costs $1.80 a gallon, and let's pretend the Toyota Prius gets 57.5mpg while the Toyota Corolla with standard 5-speed manual gets 36.5mpg. Actually I'm not pretending on those fuel economy figures, they're from the EPA.

Now, let's also pretend you drive 11,000 miles a year. With a Toyota Prius, you'd use 191.3 gallons of gasoline each year. With a Toyota Corolla, you'd use 301.4 gallons of gasoline each year. That makes the Prius's yearly gasoline cost $344.34, which is kind of a cool number. Meanwhile, the Corolla's yearly gasoline cost would be $542.52. That makes the yearly difference between the two $198.18. Agreed? Good. That means the Prius makes up $198.18 of the $6600 price difference each year. Which means in around April of the 33rd year, the Prius does indeed become the better value. That's right: it takes 33 years for the Prius's "fuel savings" to make it a better value than a Corolla.

So you're saying, sure - but the Prius is better in other areas. Standard features, for instance. For this comparison I'm going to use the Toyota Corolla LE (which is slightly more expensive than the Corolla CE, used above - in fact, it would take the Prius just 27 years to become a better value than the Corolla LE). The Corolla LE starts at $14900; the Prius still starts at $20300. The Prius has several features that the Corolla does not - traction control, anti-lock brakes, automatic climate control, heated mirrors, and alloy wheels. Meanwhile, the Corolla LE has several features the Prius does not: daytime running lights, a tire-pressure monitor and remote trunk and fuel door releases. So let's add the features the Corolla is missing - $390 gives it traction control and ABS, another $390 gives it alloys. Automatic climate control and heated mirrors are unavailable - so for $15700 the Corolla now has the same spec as the Prius (minus automatic climate control and heated mirrors, but plus DRLs, a tire-pressure monitor, and remote trunk and fuel door releases). Assuming the pluses and minuses cancel out, the Corolla's now still $4600 cheaper and with the same spec.

In fact, you could add every single option to the Corolla LE - in-dash 6-disc CD changer ($200), the Leather Package ($900), the Moon Roof/Side Airbags Package ($1400), ABS ($390), and alloy wheels ($390) and still top out at $18200. It's still $2100 cheaper than a Prius (10 years) and now has a 6-disc CD changer, leather upholstery and steering wheel, a power sunroof, front side and side curtain airbags, ABS, and alloy wheels; the Prius only has those last two standard.

Icing on the cake: the Corolla has 54 more horsepower than the Prius and does 0-60 a full second faster with an automatic (1.7sec with a manual). Furthermore, the Prius and Corolla have the same front and rear head room.

So to sum up: a base Corolla is $6600 cheaper than a Prius, meaning it would take 33 years for a Prius to recoup fuel savings over a base Corolla or 27 years over a Corolla LE ($5400 cheaper); spec is the same while the Corolla is still $4600 cheaper and even a fully-optioned Corolla is $2100 cheaper with way more stuff, the Corolla is quicker, the Corolla handles better, the Corolla has more power, and interior headroom dimensions are the same.

Hence the Prius is trash.

The entire Toyota/Lexus lineup is trash to me with the following exceptions:
- Toyota Camry SE V6
- Toyota Matrix Standard or XR
- Toyota Solara V6
- Toyota Tacoma V6

EDIT: Oh, by the way - the entire Prius comparison does not take into account its hybrid motor's battery, which lasts eight to ten years. In the US, Toyota covers their first battery under warranty, but otherwise, it costs $3000 every eight years after the first one. Accounting for the cost of the battery, I don't believe the Prius ever becomes a better dollar value than the Corolla. EVER

 

[PublicSecrecy]

"I'm looking for some expertise - not novice... ise by Audi to Zagato fanboyistic CR-whores. "

Wanna clarify that a little?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

As for the "No Honda's Past No 5" bit, I was just refferring to the fact that no other Honda's mad eit on the list except 3 and 5. Meaning that while 2 Honda's placed, so did like 5 Toyota's.

I don't believe Honda has any another small cars besides the Civic.

 

[Azuremen]

Yes, but they have like... 5 versions of the Civic... and there is also the Insight.

And Snoopie, I don't actually see what the point of your Mr. Celcius story is. I understand that its making fun of how people create a system to display information to favor them, but I'm not doing that, not am I trying to convince others of my opinion. If anyone is acting like Mr. Celcius, it would be M5.

The Gas tank point was how the Insight was shown to have a smaller gas tank then the Prius, when M5 had created a very smart ass format of saying that the Prius has the smallest gas tank in the north American market.

And as PublicS said, those cars that M5 keeps bringing up, the cheap ones with numerous options and what not have failed to display decent relibablity. Kia's depreciate at an amazing rate, and are known to have many issues with any decent amount of miles.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

My mom's friend got one, she hates it. she says the radio doesn't work at all, and it's been in and out of the shop numerous times.

 

[sn00pie]

"I'm looking for some expertise - not novice... ise by Audi to Zagato fanboyistic CR-whores. "

Wanna clarify that a little?

Yeah, sure.

When you ask the consumer - as opposed to the expert - you have to calculate into the eventual consesus the amount of

• favourism
• experience
• knowledge

of the consumer/reviewer. Which will never be at the desirable rate preferable for an objective review, hence Consumer Report is not a great source.

 

[1X83Z]

My point was, was that the Prius is not the worst car to be manufacture din the past 10 years, that M5Power mad eit out to be.

From a dollar standpoint, it no question is.

Out of curiousity M5, what do you do for a living? Marketing of some sort?

I'm the head of research and development for Nissan.

In my region.

My region is western and northwestern Michigan, the upper peninsula of Michigan, and much of Wisconsin.

I have still yet to see any proof that CR has a heavy bias towards certain car companies.

I didn't say companies, I said pro-Japanese and anti-American. They've got a Japanese fetish. I've laid it out for you, proving beyond doubt that there are vehicles better than CR's wacky top pics.

I had my father look at his posts, a Ph.D physcist and was a top debater for Rice in Texas, along with at the University of Texas. He basically said M5's argument was based on random "facts" and more of an opinion. Additionally, its clear M5 himself is extremely biased... so I've just gone to ignoring him. I recommend a similar course of action, cause he will also think that he is right, because he is too narrow minded to realize that people have opinions.

I don't get it - I posted nothing but facts based purely on mathematics and my own test drives and evaluations of the vehicles and have consistently proven my points using said facts. When shooting down CR, I didn't post a single opinion; when shooting down the Prius I didn't post a single opinion. And so because you lost the discussion, you're claiming I didn't? Come up with valid some points against what I said and I'll be impressed - or continue coming up with juvenile arguments against what I said and keep disappointing me.

By the way - I hate to fall back on education, but you started it, so I should tell you that I was a nationally-ranked debater with the University of Pennsylvania - and that this has absolutely nothing to do with that.

BTW, he was at Rice in the 50's, when it was a scholar ship only school, and a bit more on the presitiguous side.

A bit more on the prestigious side? Rice is one of the very best schools in the country. Save for its location, it would be competitive with the lesser Ivy League schools (like University of Pennsylvania). Right now it's at the very least competitive with (and probably better than) the very best non-Ivy schools around the country like the University of Virginia and University of California at Los Angeles. It's a great school and your dad should be very proud.

That is my point - M5 tries to prove an opinion that is his own, and claims everyone else is wrong. Its not whether his facts are correct, its whether he understands people can have different points of view.

I stated my opinion then backed it up with fact, something I'd love to see you do.

 

[1X83Z]

I'm looking for some expertise - not novice... ise by Audi to Zagato fanboyistic CR-whores.

I though it was over when PublicSecrecy told me to put away the statistics and just admit that the Toyota was the better car. That was pretty classic too.

I don't believe Honda has any another small cars besides the Civic.

Insight - but you're right; nothing else in direct competition with any of the vehicles mentioned.

The Gas tank point was how the Insight was shown to have a smaller gas tank then the Prius, when M5 had created a very smart ass format of saying that the Prius has the smallest gas tank in the north American market.

I know I did! Finally someone recognizes that! I personally believe that was the funniest thing I'd ever posted here! I actually realized that the Insight's gas tank was smaller as I was creating that, so I didn't mention it. If you guys really knew your stuff you'd mention that the Prius's gas tank is the smallest (save for Insight), but it's the same size as the tank in the Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, Toyota Echo, Scion xA, Scion xB, Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, and Chevrolet Aveo.

That said, I've posted about a hundred facts in this thread to your one or two, so I think I'm allowed to only be 99% right. Hey - it's a better rating than ConsumerReports! By about sixty...

And as PublicS said, those cars that M5 keeps bringing up, the cheap ones with numerous options and what not have failed to display decent relibablity. Kia's depreciate at an amazing rate, and are known to have many issues with any decent amount of miles.

All in the past, my man - since model year 2002 Kia has proven themselves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. Resale is way up too because they're making better products with longer, better-transferrable warranties. That's the problem with CR's reliability and depreciation statistics - they focus on four-year-old statistics because it's the most complete ones they claim to be able to get.

My mom's friend got one, she hates it. she says the radio doesn't work at all, and it's been in and out of the shop numerous times.

Taking a shot at facts! But unfortunately those aren't quite facts. Didn't I tell you to take notes when I ripped apart CR?!

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I agree with M5Power. And apparently I'm not the only CONSUMER who thinks the car is a waste of money.

http://www.epinions.com/content_165940596356

 

[Azuremen]

M5, you seem to be in a bit more of better mood.

My opinion is that the Prius is an interesting car, yours is that it is trash. The facts you have brought up support your opinion, but you present you opinion - the Prius is trash and a terrible investment - as fact. Certainly, the Prius is not something you buy to save money in the US, but something you buy because you find it interesting. That is the reason why my father is considering buying one. I find them interesting because they display a use of electric hybrids, and I find the potential of an electric sports car to be amazing, due to the torque available at low RPM.

Its not that I have a problem with the information you present, its how you present it - that you are correct, and everyone else is mistaken. Its not that you don't present a valid point and opinion, its that you feel everyone else's opinion's are "wrong."

Many cars could be called trash for various reasons. MR2's for example have no storage room and are very impractical. I however love them, and they do well at being sporty cars. But other people find them dumb. I find Benz's silly because of their cost, maintance fees, and what not. Opinions are opinions. No single opinion is the "correct" opinion.

My objection to what you have been saying is that the Prius is trash, as that is only your opinion, yet you have worked to make it seem as if it is fact. I'm trying to be as reasonable as I can, and I have agreed with many things that you have said, but you don't seem to see other considerations in what makes a car worth buying to a person.

Just as an aside... liberals are not the only ones that drive the Prius. As I said, my father is considering getting one, and he happens to own a considerable quanity of oil wells, along with numerous guns, votes conservatively most of the time.. Bush in the 2000 election, but felt Bush is going too far, so went Kerry, mostly in hopes of keeping Bush from winning. Along with being from Texas. Similarly, I'm not exactly a liberal as well, having voted libertarian on most everything this election, and burning gas and tires racing. Its a misconception that only tree hugging hippies love hybrids...

 

[MrktMkr1986]

electric sports car to be amazing, due to the torque available at low RPM.

Why do electric cars produce so much low-end torque compared to an internal combustion engine?

 

[Azuremen]

I'll do some research on it.. I'm not entirely sure myself, I just know that they do. It probably has to do with how they are driven, since its directly related to the amount of power being applied to the magnets. Their torque drops off quite linearly as they rise in RPMs, thus why they produce only a marginal amount of HP comapred to their torque.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I'll do some research on it.. I'm not entirely sure myself, I just know that they do. It probably has to do with how they are driven, since its directly related to the amount of power being applied to the magnets. Their torque drops off quite linearly as they rise in RPMs, thus why they produce only a marginal amount of HP comapred to their torque.

Specs for the new Prius read:

67 hp and 295 lb./ft. @ 0 rpm for the electric motor.

(still searching on Internet for answers...)

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Probably because it's comming from an electric motor, which means the electricity cna provide a direct power source, as opposed to a combustion engine which has to ignite a gas vapour, push a piston down, turn a driveshaft, go through a torque converter and turn a wheel. That, and it also has to do with the number of cylinders and how many over them are working, and what the compression ratios is. For some reason electric motors just...GO. The chemical reaction in the I guess is just ridiculously powerful, being that the magnetic reaction is incredibly strong. example: look at an electromagnetic drill press. Those things weigh about 60 lbs and when the magnet is turned on, me and my dad can both do chinups from that thing, if suspended from the ceiling. Once the polarities are reversed i'm guessing that instead of having a hugfe attractive force, is just pushes like a mother****er and gives you one helluva rotational force. As for the flat torque line, it's also probably because that while the electric motor is producing, theres nothing in it thats fluctuating. the only thing that would alter it is probably the joining of the combustion engine, which i guess is where the RPM's come in, since you know, an electric motor doesn't do any revolutionizenin' (my attempt at sounding like a Hick).

 

[1X83Z]

but you present you opinion - the Prius is trash and a terrible investment - as fact.
/
Its not that I have a problem with the information you present, its how you present it - that you are correct, and everyone else is mistaken. Its not that you don't present a valid point and opinion, its that you feel everyone else's opinion's are "wrong."
/
My objection to what you have been saying is that the Prius is trash, as that is only your opinion, yet you have worked to make it seem as if it is fact.

Look - I posted my opinion, then I supported my opinion with fact. You've told me my opinion is 'wrong' multiple times but I've never seen you back yours up with any fact. If you go by the theory that opinions are opinions and that no single opinion is correct, then I personally am of the opinion that diesels can operate under water. I think it's valid since we're evidently allowed to think whatever we want with no basis in fact.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

I bet the prius could operate under water

 

[emad]

Mind if I take a stab at this arguement?

The Prius can be a trashy car or a damn good car depending on where it is being driven. The car is VERY impractical for North American roads due to all the reasons M5 provided. More importantly, it just isn't geared at highway driving which is something a lot of people in North America have to do. However, on European roads, the car is simply amazing. The cost of fuel there is very high and the Prius answers that with it's efficiency. There isn't anything available at the moment that are as large as the Prius and still offer good fuel efficiency. M5 Power's list is proof of that:

- Audi A2 TDi
- Citroen C2 HDi
- Citroen C2 HDi SensoDrive
- Citroen C3 HDi
- Citroen C3 HDi 16V
- Fiat Punto 1.3 3-door
- Fiat Punto 1.5 5-door
- Ford Fiesta TDCi 3-door
- Ford Fiesta TDCi 5-door
- Honda Insight
- Mazda 2 1.4D
- Mitsubishi Colt Di-D
- Peugeot 206 HDi 3-door
- Peugeot 206 HDi 5-door
- Peugeot 206 SW HDi
- Peugeot 307 HDi
- Peugeot 307 HDi Estate
- Renault Clio dCi 65 3-door
- Renault Clio dCi 80 3-door
- Renault Clio dCi 65 5-door
- Renault Clio dCi 80 5-door
- Renault Clio dCi 100 5-door
- Renault Modus dCi 65
- Renault Modus dCi 80
- Renault Megane dCi 3-door
- Renault Megane dCi 5-door
- Seat Arosa TDi
- Toyota Yaris D-4D 3-door
- Toyota Yaris D-4D 5-door
- Vauxhall Corsa Di 3-door
- Vauxhall Corsa Di 5-door
- Vauxhall Corsa Di 16V 5-door
- Volkswagen Lupo TDi
- Volkswagen Lupo SDI
- Volkswagen Polo TDi 3-door
- Volkswagen Polo TDi 5-door
- Volkswagen Polo TDi Dune

The only practical family sized car in this list would be the Peugeot 307 Estate TDi and probably the VW Jetta TDi which was left out. The rest are all small hatchbacks which, while great for individuals, aren't so good for seating 4 or 5 people.

The massive torque means the car would also be quick off the line in more congested areas like in Europe... the only efficient cars available that offer this are turbodiesels.... buuut of course, not a lot of people like turbodiesels because of their harmful and foul smelling emmissions.

So, M5 is right in saying the car is a piece of crap... but it's not a complete piece of crap since it's usable and easier to sell in other parts of the world. On the other hand, in terms of cost-performance, it would probably be cheaper to get a Turbodiesel car seeing as how the Prius starts at 17000 British Pounds while the Peugeot sells for 15320 Pounds.

Anyways, with that, i'm off.

 

[1X83Z]

The only practical family sized car in this list would be the Peugeot 307 Estate TDi and probably the VW Jetta TDi which was left out. The rest are all small hatchbacks which, while great for individuals, aren't so good for seating 4 or 5 people.

But here's my problem on the European market. The Prius is listing at 17500 GBP OTR in Britain. While the Volkswagen Bora TDI (which was left off because fuel economy isn't quite there) lists at 14500 GBP OTR - that's a 3000 GBP penalty for slightly better economy. Not to mention with a diesel, you have considerable choices on what make and model to opt for. There aren't a lot of cars on that list that are family-capable and get BETTER economy than the Prius - but there's many European cars that are family-capable and get similar economy, at a much lower price.

 

[emad]

I realized that later in my post and mentioned it

 

[PublicSecrecy]

So it doesn't operate under water?

 

[1X83Z]

So it doesn't operate under water?

Nah - it's not a diesel.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Probably kill everything within 50 feet of it anyway.