Toyota Supra (A90)

[Eunos_Cosmo]

It makes me wonder what sort of profit margins Mazda has with the Miata. The car's silly expensive here in Canada for what it is, but even then, it's still a bespoke platform that sells in relatively tiny numbers.

Also, I really want to see the comparison between the base 190hp four-cylinder Supra and the 86...

I don't image Mazda is making a lot of money on the Miata...they sold less than 9,000 of them last year in the US.

BUT their entire brand identity is tied up in that little roadster. They can't afford not to make it, I would argue, as it lends legitimacy of driving entertainment and engineering excellence to all of their other offerings. The company would be lesser without it. Not only that, but the MX-5 has routinely crushed any and all who have attempted to crowd it's space...BMW, Toyota, GM, Honda have all tried their hand at getting into this space, but it seems there is only room for one, and I think Mazda is more than happy to provide.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Yeah, I think the fact that the MX-5 is so well established is part of why Mazda can afford to spend plenty of money on development and sell it for a pretty competitive price. After all, Miata Is Always The Answer.

 

[Danoff]

I don't image Mazda is making a lot of money on the Miata...they sold less than 9,000 of them last year in the US.

BUT their entire brand identity is tied up in that little roadster. They can't afford not to make it, I would argue, as it lends legitimacy of driving entertainment and engineering excellence to all of their other offerings. The company would be lesser without it. Not only that, but the MX-5 has routinely crushed any and all who have attempted to crowd it's space...BMW, Toyota, GM, Honda have all tried their hand at getting into this space, but it seems there is only room for one, and I think Mazda is more than happy to provide.

Except of course for the very nearly on topic but not quite on topic MR2, which pointed out what the miata should be.

 

[homeforsummer]

Except of course for the very nearly on topic but not quite on topic MR2, which pointed out what the miata should be.

The MR2 is an odd one, as it almost seemed like the last of the old guard rather than the beginning of the sports car revolution that happened in the 1990s. Mazda certainly mulled a mid-engined car when they were developing the MX-5...

...but then they also tried a front-wheel drive one and a FR, so I'm not sure how much influence the MR2 held over the project. From what I've read Bob Hall was considering a car like the MX-5 back in the late 70s, so the inspiration really would have been more from cars like the MGB than what Toyota turned out in 1984. Given the sales volumes Mazda achieved with the NA, it's fair to say they definitely went the right direction with the project.

 

[Danoff]

The MR2 is an odd one, as it almost seemed like the last of the old guard rather than the beginning of the sports car revolution that happened in the 1990s. Mazda certainly mulled a mid-engined car when they were developing the MX-5...

View attachment 797357​

...but then they also tried a front-wheel drive one and a FR, so I'm not sure how much influence the MR2 held over the project. From what I've read Bob Hall was considering a car like the MX-5 back in the late 70s, so the inspiration really would have been more from cars like the MGB than what Toyota turned out in 1984. Given the sales volumes Mazda achieved with the NA, it's fair to say they definitely went the right direction with the project.

Well if you're gonna go by sales... pssshhhhhhhhhh

 

[MatskiMonk]

Personally, I think the MX5 does well because it captures two different demographics quite well. People who want that dynamic driving experience in an affordable package, and people that want a cute little soft top that probably don't appreciate the driving experience anyway. The demographic of this forum obviously leans towards the former, I'd wager a lot of MX5 buyers are like my mum, and she is not a petrol head.

I don't think the MR2 had the same appeal for that second group, even in its third gen when it was just a soft top... though that could have been because it was truck ugly compared to the W20.

Had the BMW collaboration led to a mid engined BMW Z car, and a new MR2, I think I would have preferred it to what we got, personally.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Except of course for the very nearly on topic but not quite on topic MR2, which pointed out what the miata should be.

Maybe, maybe not.

While I do agree that in some respects the MR2 was the better sports car, I'm not sure it was the better sports car, if that makes any sense. And again, while the MR2 does predate the Miata by a few years, Mazda has been building front-engined sports cars with about 50/50 weight distribution continuously since 1967 (if you count the RX-3 as a sports car, which I think one should).

 

[CarGuru]

Had the BMW collaboration led to a mid engined BMW Z car, and a new MR2, I think I would have preferred it to what we got, personally.

Definitely. It would also fit better with Toyota stating that they want a return of the three brothers, because I don't see where a future MR2 would fit now...

...as long as they want to keep the category order of the three cars the same as it was before.

 

[McLaren]

Had the BMW collaboration led to a mid engined BMW Z car, and a new MR2, I think I would have preferred it to what we got, personally.

I can just see the BMW crowd seething at the opportunity to crucify Toyota for their "cheap parts" and BMW for ruining their Z line.

Neither manufacturer still wins.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I can just see the BMW crowd seething at the opportunity to crucify Toyota for their "cheap parts" and BMW for ruining their Z line.

Neither manufacturer still wins.

It's the BMW fan community we're talking about here, they'll whinge about everything anyway! No Z4M, and no Z4 coupe were already suitable reasons for them to be disgruntled with the last Z4, and that doesn't seem likely to change with this one. I think the opportunity to take on the baby-Porsche models with an appropriate chassis would have won them over.

I also think Toyota have come out of this deal worse than BMW, the Germans didn't have much to loose, whereas the Japanese have taken one of their most emotive nameplates and put it on someone elses product - which I don't think was a gamble they needed to take when the have Lexus and the RC and LC.

 

[McLaren]

It's the BMW fan community we're talking about here, they'll whinge about everything anyway! No Z4M, and no Z4 coupe were already suitable reasons for them to be disgruntled with the last Z4, and that doesn't seem likely to change with this one. I think the opportunity to take on the baby-Porsche models with an appropriate chassis would have won them over.

Letting Toyota build the chassis, engine, and interior would've been jumping the shark for them. Purists would've had a complete meltdown with the Z4 going mid-engine. "Reeee" and all that unnecessary rage.

I also think Toyota have come out of this deal worse than BMW, the Germans didn't have much to loose, whereas the Japanese have taken one of their most emotive nameplates and put it on someone elses product - which I don't think was a gamble they needed to take when the have Lexus and the RC and LC.

Oh, for sure. If no one ever knew Toyota and BMW got together to build a car, I would assume the new Z4 was entirely BMW with zero input from Toyota on the chassis.

As for Lexus, I'm on the fence with that. Mistakes were made with the RC line, and neither model really moves the units I'm sure Toyota want from the Supra. If anything, maybe Toyota will learn from the Supra and apply it to the next gen. RC.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The Camaro has an existentially-inescapable image problem. It has always been and will always be driving, however nicely, in the shadow of the Mustang. I wish GM would apply all of the genuinely-excellent engineering into a package that doesn't have to carry the baggage (and visibility problems) of the Camaro. The 130R gave me a moment of hope. Maybe a new Monza? Or cross-polinate and make a new Manta...which could even be sold in Europe as an Opel! My plan is brilliant.

If GM and Opel were still a pair it could.

I think the best thing is to just make a brand new design from the ground up like going form gen 4 to gen 5, but then that would create a problem similar to what this thread has shown "it's not what I wanted!"

I still think a more powerful version of the newest Supra is in the works and probably be done under a bigger Gazoo Racing package but that will still make people upset.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

If GM and Opel were still a pair it could.

I think the best thing is to just make a brand new design from the ground up like going form gen 4 to gen 5, but then that would create a problem similar to what this thread has shown "it's not what I wanted!"

I still think a more powerful version of the newest Supra is in the works and probably be done under a bigger Gazoo Racing package but that will still make people upset.

Holy moly I didn't realize that Opel wasn't part of GM anymore.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Holy moly I didn't realize that Opel wasn't part of GM anymore.

Can't tell if sarcasm or not, I was pretty sure you knew and just forgot with in that post. If not sarcasm, then sorry to be the one to inform you.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Can't tell if sarcasm or not, I was pretty sure you knew and just forgot with in that post. If not sarcasm, then sorry to be the one to inform you.

Genuinely didn't know and glad I am informed now.

Somewhat related to this chain (but not the thread), GM has actually built a new Monza for the Chinese market....so there goes that idea.

 

[Danoff]

 

[mustafur]

Except of course for the very nearly on topic but not quite on topic MR2, which pointed out what the miata should be.

A twitchy and even more expensive flop?

 

[kikie]

So, according to the narrator:

• BMW engines = not reliable?
• Toyota engines = reliable?

 

[Danoff]

A twitchy and even more expensive flop?

You mean a better sports car with proper handling?

 

[mustafur]

You mean a better sports car with proper handling?

It's very much specific to the model you get though.

Either way the Miata was the better platform because it survived till this day.

 

[Danoff]

It's very much specific to the model you get though.

Either way the Miata was the better platform because it survived till this day.

So was the Camry then, and the Sienna. The Miata, Camry and Sienna were also obviously better platforms than the NSX as well, which did not survive uninterrupted till this day.

And to stay on topic, the Supra as well.

 

[mustafur]

So was the Camry then, and the Sienna. The Miata, Camry and Sienna were also obviously better platforms than the NSX as well, which did not survive uninterrupted till this day.

And to stay on topic, the Supra as well.

But you know your saying it's the better sports car and what the Miata should be, we are not exactly talking about Family sedans here.

 

[Danoff]

But you know your saying it's the better sports car and what the Miata should be, we are not exactly talking about Family sedans here.

I'm saying that sales are not a good indicator of whether it's a better sports car.

Edit:

Just think for a moment about who they sold them to.

 

[mustafur]

I'm saying that sales are not a good indicator of whether it's a better sports car.

Edit:

Just think for a moment about who they sold them to.

People who wanted a sports car?

I mean we are talking about subjective things at this point, the only objective thing is more people that wanted a sports car bought a Miata then MR2 and one is still selling.

Though I'm Sure a Bespoke Mid Engined platform for a Brand like Toyota that can't even make their own Halo car in current times(Hey I'm staying on topic!) means the car never really had a chance long term anyway.

 

[Grandea GTR]

I'm loving Toyota's responses to the various comments they get.

 

[Danoff]

People who wanted a sports car?

I mean we are talking about subjective things at this point, the only objective thing is more people that wanted a sports car bought a Miata then MR2 and one is still selling.

Don't do that, don't dig in.

A big part of the miata's success is because it's a convertible. It was sold to and marketed to people who wanted a cheap convertible. Market success is not a good surrogate for "better sports car" here.

People want convertibles... fine, great, that doesn't make it a better sports car. That means that convertibles will sell. If anyone was even paying enough attention at the time, they probably didn't want to deal with throttle lift oversteer at any point. Fine, that means that front engine cars will sell better. That doesn't make them better sports cars. Mid-engine is a superior sports car layout. People want a bigger trunk (I don't actually know if the miata's trunk is any bigger than the MR2, but maybe, because of the engine). Fine, that means bigger trunks will sell better. That doesn't make them better sports cars.

To take it off of the miata vs. MR2 for a moment, people want taller cars, they want a back seat, they want to use regular gas... none of that makes the car a better sports car. Compromised cars might sell better, but it doesn't make them better at being sports cars. In other words, sales and longevity in the market are not good substitutes here.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'm saying that sales are not a good indicator of whether it's a better sports car.

You mean the Camry isn't the best sedan? The F-150 isn't the best pickup? Rihanna isn't a better musician than Pink Floyd?

I'm loving Toyota's responses to the various comments they get.

I'm not sure that's a good move, as the subtext there is that even Toyota believes the Supra doesn't have a lot of power. It comes off as a little insecure: I'd rather just see the car speak for itself via reviews/tests.

 

[mustafur]

Don't do that, don't dig in.

A big part of the miata's success is because it's a convertible. It was sold to and marketed to people who wanted a cheap convertible. Market success is not a good surrogate for "better sports car" here.

People want convertibles... fine, great, that doesn't make it a better sports car. That means that convertibles will sell. If anyone was even paying enough attention at the time, they probably didn't want to deal with throttle lift oversteer at any point. Fine, that means that front engine cars will sell better. That doesn't make them better sports cars. Mid-engine is a superior sports car layout. People want a bigger trunk (I don't actually know if the miata's trunk is any bigger than the MR2, but maybe, because of the engine). Fine, that means bigger trunks will sell better. That doesn't make them better sports cars.

To take it off of the miata vs. MR2 for a moment, people want taller cars, they want a back seat, they want to use regular gas... none of that makes the car a better sports car. Compromised cars might sell better, but it doesn't make them better at being sports cars. In other words, sales and longevity in the market are not good substitutes here.

Mid Engined Layout requires Smooth(er) driving technique, a FR layout especially on a light small Wheelbase car like a Miata is chuckable, it's objectively different and it's subjective what makes it better.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not sure that's a good move, as the subtext there is that even Toyota believes the Supra doesn't have a lot of power. It comes off as a little insecure: I'd rather just see the car speak for itself via reviews/tests.

I agree. The company line should be that it has just the right amount of power for what it is.

Mid Engined Layout requires Smooth(er) driving technique, a FR layout especially on a light small Wheelbase car like a Miata is chuckable, it's objectively different and it's subjective what makes it better.

Mid-engine is better from a handling perspective due to math - specifically rotational moment of inertia. It's a better sports car layout, which is why when sports cars get serious, that's what they use. The MR2 is also light and has a small wheelbase (though not TOO small like the miata) and is very "chuckable".

It has more structural rigidity in the roof, it has proper sports car dynamics, and it's light. What it doesn't have is a rag top (at least not until the 3rd gen, which had its own issues). The third gen MR2 was also not very pretty, which didn't help its cause.

Basically, the MR2 lost out on sales for a bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with whether it's a better sports car. You can argue with me if you want about why the miata is a better sports car (I mean, you shouldn't, because it isn't), but don't use sales to back it up.

 

[mustafur]

Talking about the old Supra compared to it's competition, it was Slower then all of them(even the 3000GT).