Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[AdamA998]

The thing is that in GT sport the physics are not very realistic and you don’t get penalised for going on the grass with two wheels like you would in real life. If I compare driving a lap around the Nordschleife in GT sport where I can do some ridiculous cutting corner and driving on the grass if I would do that on assetto Corsa I would spin out immediately. So my take on it is that because the physics in GT doesn’t penalize going on the grass as much as real life or assetto that they need to make the track limits more strict to stop people cutting corners that would result in a big crash in real life.

What? You definitely lose control going over grass and even on curbs. GT Sport is realistic enough, and much more fun/competitive than those other titles you mention. You can easily spin out on GT Sport, it happens to drivers every race on Sport mode. As for track limits, it is actually implemented very well online. Sometimes you barely almost hit the limit and it doesn't penalize you because it is a result of an accident or being pushed by other player. You cut a corner it will penalize you, not always in trials but it does work well in Sport mode.

 

[shaunus]

there are no double standards. The track limits are set and function as one would expect, just some people want the line moved.. wall riding is a mechanism exploit which does not function as one would expect.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

there are no double standards. The track limits are set and function as one would expect, just some people want the line moved.. wall riding is a mechanism exploit which does not function as one would expect.

Tell yourself that if you want to.

Watch Nascar racing and watch cars ride the wall and keep going, granted they receive damage to their cars as a result.

Difference in the game is there is no damage activated to which I think is another weakness with the online races. But the corner cutters are not risking splitter, tire or suspension damage either as that is not also a part of the game but is a real world valid concern that ingame does not function as one would expect.

But the wall riders are staying within the defined boundaries of being completely on the tarmac while in some corners none of the actual tarmac of the track is even used so out the door with the tracks original design coming into play dictating the pace or agility of the car or skill of the driver to negotiate that sector of track.

So in some respects the wall riders are not stretching the boundaries as far as the corner cutters, they are staying on the original design of the circuit for the entire lap.

So keep fooling yourself one is okay while the other is a cheat. until PD decides to change it they are both legal and the same.

 

[shaunus]

Tell yourself that if you want to.

Watch Nascar racing and watch cars ride the wall and keep going, granted they receive damage to their cars as a result.

Difference in the game is there is no damage activated to which I think is another weakness with the online races. But the corner cutters are not risking splitter, tire or suspension damage either as that is not also a part of the game but is a real world valid concern that ingame does not function as one would expect.

But the wall riders are staying within the defined boundaries of being completely on the tarmac while in some corners none of the actual tarmac of the track is even used so out the door with the tracks original design coming into play dictating the pace or agility of the car or skill of the driver to negotiate that sector of track.

So in some respects the wall riders are not stretching the boundaries as far as the corner cutters, they are staying on the original design of the circuit for the entire lap.

So keep fooling yourself one is okay while the other is a cheat. until PD decides to change it they are both legal and the same.

A mechanism where cars ride walls substantially without losing a lot of speed or any other penalty is a flawed physics model. The game industry has dealt with exploiters forever, because simulated models are not perfect. Devs try to clamp down on it but it is never possible to get everything.

The track limits are not the result of a limitation in the model, and are in no possible way an exploit. The track dev has chosen them and can change them at any time with the greatest ease. And there ARE risks, bumps, hard kerbs and grass can ruin your race pretty fast if you get it wrong. This is a live topic in most real racing series too as some fans or drivers feel the officials are too generous.

The two things bear absolutely no resemblance to each other. However go ahead using unrelated exploits as a rhetorical tool to argue for what you want if you like.

 

[Imari]

11(+) page thread shows that it is a pretty emotive subject in the community and maybe cutting corners is not as "fair" as the corner cutters think it is.

For the umpteenth time, it's not about fairness. The rules of the game have been designed the way they are. That's the game you're playing.

You can make an argument that it's a bad game because of the selection of rules, but not that playing by the rules is somehow unfair simply because you don't like the aesthetics of it.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

A mechanism where cars ride walls substantially without losing a lot of speed or any other penalty is a flawed physics model.

How do you blame it on the physics model?

The physics model works fine on say dragon trail exiting the chicane, rub the outer wall there and you experience a slow down in pace and speed and you do not necessarily receive a penalty as it is also on the outside radius of a turn.

So the physics model is not to blame as it works as intended with contacts to other walls. Just like barely cutting some corners will result in drawing a penalty while being totally off the tarmac will not penalize you on other corners.

Thank you for bringing this up just another example of how the two issues although totally different issues within the game are totally the same.

Your physics argument does not work either as proven by it works fine in one place but is different in another place in the game same as the limits for corner cutting are different depending on location.

Again apparently the devs have allowed the wall to be contacted without adverse effects in some places with no penalty assessed for the contact just as some corners the devs have allowed the car to totally leave the tarmac without adverse effects or penalty as well.

 

[shaunus]

Again apparently the devs have allowed the wall to be contacted without adverse effects in some places with no penalty assessed for the contact just as some corners the devs have allowed the car to totally leave the tarmac without adverse effects or penalty as well.

I think you are reaching, but hey. If you think the devs have set up the walls to allow wall-riding on purpose you go ahead.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I think you are reaching, but hey. If you think the devs have set up the walls to allow wall-riding on purpose you go ahead.

Like I have said on many previous occasions, I do not approve of either of these "issues" as they currently exist and would like to see PD not allow wall riding without at least a major slowdown of pace which would eliminate the practice as there would be no gain only a loss for doing so or to be able to cut corners where the entire car is off of the tarmac surface of the track.

I have no problem with the entire curbing being used as an extension of the track but I do feel that the limits need to be uniform and the same on what the limits are and what draws a penalty in every corner on the game.

Allowing the complete car off of the tarmac in one place and being legal and the outer wheels just over the curbing while the other wheels are still on the track in another corner and it draws a penalty in another place is too drastic an inconsistently and confusing for the less experienced to be considered acceptable for a racing game aimed at all player with different levels of knowledge concerning real world racing rules and some with no knowledge at all.

My main argument is that as long as the game allows both practices as is and the same criteria applies to all racers then both practices in effect are the same as far as being legal within the game. No matter what your argument in that respect they are identical and should be treated no differently.

Now as far what we feel or believe to be correct or incorrect behavior as in the spirit of the racing, or what more compares to real motorsports or even personal preferences or morality to what a person may do to try to win a race, well that is different but until PD changes the limits within the game both practices will continue to be legal game play agree or disagree with one or both issues put aside.

 

[zzz_pt]

Like I have said on many previous occasions, I do not approve of either of these "issues" as they currently exist and would like to see PD not allow wall riding without at least a major slowdown of pace which would eliminate the practice as there would be no gain only a loss for doing so or to be able to cut corners where the entire car is off of the tarmac surface of the track.

I have no problem with the entire curbing being used as an extension of the track but I do feel that the limits need to be uniform and the same on what the limits are and what draws a penalty in every corner on the game.

Allowing the complete car off of the tarmac in one place and being legal and the outer wheels just over the curbing while the other wheels are still on the track in another corner and it draws a penalty in another place is too drastic an inconsistently and confusing for the less experienced to be considered acceptable for a racing game aimed at all player with different levels of knowledge concerning real world racing rules and some with no knowledge at all.

Why do the track limits have to be the same on every corner? As it happens on some tracks IRL, the strewards at Lake Maggiore decided that on turn 4, the white surface is part of the track. As it is on other 3 corners of that track.

My main argument is that as long as the game allows both practices as is and the same criteria applies to all racers then both practices in effect are the same as far as being legal within the game. No matter what your argument in that respect they are identical and should be treated no differently.

Well. apparently most people would disagree, so there's an argument to be made that the situations are not the same. But I won't repeat myself. Each one can have their opinions. The fact is that my lap is within the track limits set by PD. Go back and see the video I made for the 4 "special" curbs at Lake Maggiore. Everyone rides 3 of them (often with four wheels beyond the "white line") but on turn 4 that's outrageous somehow.

I'd bet PD will fix the wall riding and the pit glitch sooner or later. I don't think they will change the track limits at Lake Maggiore. They're clear if you don't make up your own "track limits". Nurb GP needs fixing though as we can compare it with the real track (thing we can't with Maggiore) and the first sector atm can be driven completely away of the track by going wide.

 

[Imari]

Again apparently the devs have allowed the wall to be contacted without adverse effects in some places with no penalty assessed for the contact just as some corners the devs have allowed the car to totally leave the tarmac without adverse effects or penalty as well.

I think it's probably more complex than that given that a penalty with the wall is assessed seemingly based also on angle and speed, not just contact. With a curving wall, it's possible to get situations that wouldn't in isolation seem penalty worthy, but when you see the string of contacts all around the bend would probably indicate someone trying to abuse the system. If the penalty is only assessing individual incidents rather than incidents within say, the last ten seconds, it will assign or not assign penalties in a way that the designers probably didn't intend.

Don't blame on malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. The track limit system is so simple that it can be considered entirely intentional. The wall contact system is complex enough that there's room for behaviours unintended by the designers. They may have wanted to allow wall riding (given how prominent it's been in their last 6 games), but I think there's room for doubt.

The main problem with the wall penalty system is that it's actually a penalty system. Proper mechanical damage would render penalties for wall contact largely irrelevant and large contacts and repeated small contacts would be dealt with appropriately. Honestly, I think one of the largest issues with the GTS penalty system is the omission of a sensitive damage model. It solves so many problems and undesirable behaviours by itself, while also providing a more realistic racing environment.

Polyphony has avoided strong damage the entire time. I can only assume they think that it makes a game less fun. Maybe they're right in something like GT4. But in GTS it's a preferable system to arbitrary penalties. It's easily understandable by people of any age, it's no fault and it promotes clean and safe driving. I think they made a major design mistake in choosing penalties over damage.

I suspect that they're also influenced by not wanting to spoil their pretty graphics. But honestly, if you're going for simulating the motorsport experience gameplay>graphics.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Why do the track limits have to be the same on every corner? As it happens on some tracks IRL, the strewards at Lake Maggiore decided that on turn 4, the white surface is part of the track. As it is on other 3 corners of that track.

IRL you have race officials and driver meetings that relay what is legal and what is not legal at every race and every circuit. In game you are not given any information that relays that information.

I even stated in an earlier post that the differing corner limits may be easier to accept if there was an in game section such as circuit experiences that had a detailed track map that clearly using different colors or something identified what the legal limits were before being assessed a penalty for every corner.

IRL what limits one racing organization may allow for their racers another racing organization may not be as lenient so that can also vary. So it is not written in stone in RL either.

But regardless those limits are plainly and clearly explained to each team and driver prior to any qualifying or racing commencing for the event.

In game we do not have ANY source for that relay of information which for many casual players that do not frequent racing forums or do not know RL motorsports practices very well then an informed racer of the variable corner limits may very well have an advantage over the casual racer.

I like the game and want to see it do well, for that reason many times I take an advocates position for what I feel are the majority that play the game. Casual gamers not "understanding" why the rules vary from place to place with they can and cannot do will quit playing the game in disgust after a while.

We need those casual gamers to keep the numbers up so the game will continue to be supported in the future and making uniform rules do go a long ways to making it easier for all players to grasp what they can and cannot do within the game.

I watched your lap and it looked very good and within the current rules it is a great lap and is perfectly a legal lap to run. Your skills are very good.

But if the rules changed you would change with the rules and your lap time would still be good, only difference is all the racers whether watching top 10 replays, going on racing forums or just picking up the game for the first time would be on the same much easier to understand playing field that was uniform for all corners and all circuits.

I can adjust to whatever the game does, if it reaches a point I do not want to adjust then I put the game up and play something else. This is not personal to me from other than it should be uniform or the limits should plainly be available to see on a track map within game.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Watch Nascar racing and watch cars ride the wall and keep going, granted they receive damage to their cars as a result.

Difference in the game is there is no damage activated to which I think is another weakness with the online races. But the corner cutters are not risking splitter, tire or suspension damage either as that is not also a part of the game but is a real world valid concern that ingame does not function as one would expect.

The main problem with the wall penalty system is that it's actually a penalty system. Proper mechanical damage would render penalties for wall contact largely irrelevant and large contacts and repeated small contacts would be dealt with appropriately. Honestly, I think one of the largest issues with the GTS penalty system is the omission of a sensitive damage model. It solves so many problems and undesirable behaviours by itself, while also providing a more realistic racing environment.

If you look at my earlier post included in this message you will see I plainly address the lack of damage issue plainly but not only for wall riding. Damage would eliminate a lot of problems in my opinion in the sport races.

 

[Imari]

IRL you have race officials and driver meetings that relay what is legal and what is not legal at every race and every circuit. In game you are not given any information that relays that information.

In game we do not have ANY source for that relay of information which for many casual players that do not frequent racing forums or do not know RL motorsports practices very well then an informed racer of the variable corner limits may very well have an advantage over the casual racer.

Actually, you do have a source. You can just go out and drive it. You can get immediate feedback at any time on what is legal and what is not.

Real life racers can't just jump on the track and drive like we can in a game. They have to rely on diagrams and word of mouth outside of a few short practise sessions where they also have other work to do than try lines. We have no such restriction, we have an unsleeping robot overlord that will happily tell you whether any particular line is clean or not. You can run as many lines as you like and find which ones are clean and which are not.

I'm not sure you can spoon feed people this stuff. If they're interested enough to want to know, it's not hard to find out even without forums and such. If they're not interested enough to know, they're not serious enough that accurate track limits are a major limiting factor in their ability to race.

If you look at my earlier post included in this message you will see I plainly address the lack of damage issue plainly but not only for wall riding. Damage would eliminate a lot of problems in my opinion in the sport races.

Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear. I wasn't meaning to imply that you disagreed, I was merely adding my two cents on the problems inherent in the lack of damage.

 

[segien1982]

Yeah, that guy is me...

If you want to be fast, you have to push the limits of the game. If the game allows this, why would I lose time and not cut corners?

Honest question: do you think the top guys would not be in the top10 if the game had harsher corner cutting penalties? You're kinda of implicating they wouldn't.

I'll race on the black stuff only if that's mandatory. If it's not, I won't.

Also, during the races I can hardly do that and risk a spin or penalty. Especially on turn 4.

I also think PD should make something though. Until then, I'll continue doing this. It's not like I'm doing something the others can't.

I can tell you I could make 2:03 laps without cutting a single corner.

Edit: just to make this last point. Lots of people from all rankings cut corners. From people who make 2:02 to 2:10. It's not an exclusive of the fastest guys. Braking and accelerating at the right time is what makes time.

I clip corners, thats nothing new. What i have noticed though is during qualifying laps NO car handles the same as during the actual races. I have seen so many people have great qual times, but during a clean race can only get to within 2 secs of that time. Its a weird quirk. Kudos for the corner cutting, although i do think the penalties given sometimes dont fit the "crime". Penalize me for any time it may have saved, not 10 sec for a .2 corner clip.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Unfortunately, there are some places where you can cut to gain time, getting a penalty, but it comes off automatically by the nature of the following corners without compromising any speed. If you get a penalty, the lap should be invalid.

Also, you do get penalties for wallriding, it's just that you are able to exploit it so you don't get a penalty, or so that you work it off in the rest of the lap, which is very different from using the full allowed width of the track. I don't think anyone would mind if PD fixed these to make the lap invalid.

 

[Walkinshaw]

Can someone show me where this would be allowed in real life?
It would be penalised.
This isn't a simple kerb cut, it's almost 3 car widths away from the track lol, it's exploiting the game and I'm pretty sure the devs didn't intend this.
BUT like already stated, we can all do it if we want to so I'm not sure we have the right to be upset.

I think the top 10 guys would still be top 10 regardless. I'm no where near that. The only fix would be walled tracks with no kerbs or run off and I wouldn't like that.

 

[superwally]

I can run top 10 Q times at Suzuka, Nurb GP, Interlagos and Brands. Other than a couple of places where you can run wide on the exits, the real tracks have pretty decent limits.

I choose not to race on the fake tracks with their10m wide kerbs. Im sure I could run top 10 times there as well if I put the effort in, but running those lines is just not for me.

I get this. After learning Dragon Trail II the other day, I went from enjoying the flow of the track to 'I can run way out here with no penalty?' and it killed it for me. I've had the attitude that I needed to learn new tracks to compete in whatever type of event is up each day, but every time I enter races on the made-up tracks, the racing isn't good. There is so much width with the curbing and the lack of limits, people can take crazy lines and defending is impossible.

Sorry that's not my reasoning nor find it a solution to this issue


Good luck finding some kind of resolve in here guys! Nothing left for me to say.. ttfn

The post didn't apply to anyone in particular, it's more me wondering about the mindset different people bring to a discussion. My post doesn't read exactly as I intended, but that's nothing new.

I'm a fan of a fair, understandable, and consistent sets of rules that keep any game or sport close to the intended purpose. In this case, we are racing cars on paved roads, so there ought to be track limits that force us to stay mostly on the tarmac.

Asking humans to agree what acceptable behavior is, in the absence of those sensible rules? Ha! I'm with Mr. P on that.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Actually, you do have a source. You can just go out and drive it. You can get immediate feedback at any time on what is legal and what is not.

Legitimate question here, what types of track limits do other sims employ such as i-racing, Assetto and Pcars have in their games?

 

[Imari]

Legitimate question here, what types of track limits do other sims employ such as i-racing, Assetto and Pcars have in their games?

Types? I don't get it. They're all basically a line where if you go over it something negative happens.

iRacing gives you a 1x. Assetto Corsa it invalidates your lap. pCARS2 single player the same. I dunno about online, I assume similar to iRacing.

In my experience, pCARS and iRacing tend to be pretty much where you'd expect them to be, with a few that are unusually tight. Assetto Corsa I rarely find myself pushing up against the limits, because I tend to drive that game more for experiencing cars than for extracting the last tenth. Pretty much all of them if you're far enough off to be triggering track limits you'll find that the car is on an unstable surface as well, so it's risky if you're actually in a racing situation. You can't consistently hit sleeping policemen like you can in GTS even where it doesn't flag you, because you risk damage ending your race.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Types? I don't get it.

As far as what is generally allowable say on the same circuits that they have in common with GTS.
Two wheels off the tarmac, full use of the curbing but cannot exceed outer curbing edges, fully off the circuit in some cases that type of limits in the other games.

WE know gts in some corners allows a full car width completely off the Tarmac for instance and still legal for some corners.

 

[Sergio18]

Be dirty, you have to push the game to the limits... If you are not Penalized, you are not dirty

 

[Ghoa$t]

1x 1x 1x 1x 1x

Game is way too forgiving in many aspects to be taken seriously compared to its competitors.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

I don't think anyone would complain if they changed track limits to white lines.

 

[Factor41]

I don't think anyone would complain if they changed track limits to white lines.

I would. What's the point of having kerbs if you're not allowed to ride them?!

I started doing motorsport photography back in 2004 and the generally accepted rule, at least in the UK, was that you were on track if you had at least a pair of tyres inside the white lines. Obviously, some cars could push this more than others, but generally people would have the space to try harder, go faster, and not be In danger of being penalised for driving like this...

In recent years though, UK circuit owners started getting all pissy about cars making a mess of their grass and in 2014 the MSA issued new directives clarifying track limits and calling for stricter penalties those exceeding them. The guidance was based on where the outer wheels reached, rather than what was left on track. You can read the MSA notes here.

In short, what they say is that where there is a kerb, that is an extension of the track and may be used as such, so the driving on most of the video is completely legal.

The unfortunate result of this, in an age of crap economies where motorsport is already dying on its arse in many series, is that motorsport is now a much less enticing and exciting for the spectator. All of the flamboyance is gone because drivers won't push overtaking opportunities which risk them running a bit too wide and being penalised for not respecting track limits.

I remember when it first came into force, drivers in one of the series I cover were getting penalties and having quali laps not counted, and having to view videos with the CoC to work out where they had run too wide because they were driving as they always had on the same circuit.

Silverstone and Donington have both praised the changes as they have seen lower operating costs from not having to repair the grass as much, but a few years ago, I'd cover dozens of race weekends each year, including single seater and GT cars from club to FIA level; last year I did two.

My take on the video is that, with the exception of a bit of grass at T1 and the crazy line at T4, which was way more than I thought you could get away with, and maybe the first of the s-bends, it was an excellent lap. Certainly in line with what I'd aim for.

If you're not trying different lines and seeing how much track you're allowed to take, you probably aren't practicing enough to ever get near the Top 10 times. These guys don't just rock up a couple of hours a week and blitz it, they take time and put in the hours to learn the nuances of every track. If you don't have the time to do that, that's fine and you'll be matched with people at your level, but don't complain that people are faster than you by driving within the same set of rules as you.

 

[GTFraker]

The video in the OP is fine, ZZZ abused the track limits at one turn but that is an everyday part of sim and real life racing, just watch any FIA sanctioned race and you will spot a lot of that.

 

[Tornado]

Oh, here we go. I was wondering how long it would be! I know. I suck, you're awesome. I need to get gud. Lol.
You guys are a joke, TBH. Take the game and your loser cheating selves and shove it. No one likes to race with cheaters, which most on here are obviously. And defend it. Lol. I don't even know why I posted to begin with, because I really don't do the MP thing for these reasons. I drive like a gentleman and I do it fairly. You guys cheat and will go to the ends of the earth to defend it. And yes, if the game allows it, then it sucks.
Now, go post up your times and tell us all how fast you are! Lol What a joke


I'm laughing at you cheater! Bwaaaahahaha
You're the joke, not me.

You guys cheat. You've been caught on video and all you have left is to defend it and say it's ok. That's all you have. Bwaahahahaha

If you want to enforce your own standards of ethics in a dedicated E-Sports game, set up your own scrubs-only LAN party and play the police officer there. PD sets the rules for their game, and their rules happen to say roll canceling wave dashing Custom Combos Old Sagat Delfino Plaza driving completely over curbs is legal. If you don't like it and won't use it, you won't win. If you want to win anyway, that's too bad; since there's a pretty reasonable chance that (even if PD do listen to concerns and modify the boundaries) the people who strive for the competitive advantage in a dedicated E-Sports game are probably better than you anyway.


These are the facts of the type of game you've bought into, known for literal decades by players who already played these types of games. The sooner you come to terms with them, the happier you'll be. You'll also find that competitors in actual sports, the best of the best, your Ayrton Sennas and Michael Schumachers and Sebastien Vettels, knew the letter of the rules better than most of the people enforcing them for the same reason.

 

[Mr616]

100% agree @Scaff, however this is a little bit much...

View attachment 707621
Which definitely needs attention from PD.

Legitimate question here, what types of track limits do other sims employ such as i-racing, Assetto and Pcars have in their games?

I was watching Nicki Thim stream the other day. Somebody brought track limits up in chat. He said you have to use what's at your disposal. Push the limits. Iracing at Daytona was allowing a lot of run off, and that's the mythical perfect sim to some.

So, that's Iracing allowing what's being discussed here.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I was watching Nicki Thim stream the other day. Somebody brought track limits up in chat. He said you have to use what's at your disposal. Push the limits. Iracing at Daytona was allowing a lot of run off, and that's the mythical perfect sim to some.

So, that's Iracing allowing what's being discussed here.

To a point.

Some people really take the pee on certain tracks in GTS.
Good for them I suppose, but personally I'ld be embarrassed by some of the laps I see.

Happy to hold a little integrity, than go balls out.

 

[Mr616]

To a point.

Some people really take the pee on certain tracks in GTS.
Good for them I suppose, but personally I'ld be embarrassed by some of the laps I see.

Happy to hold a little integrity, than go balls out.

If people were actually bypassing corners, or straight-lining chicaines I'd have an issue, but what's being discussed here is a few extra feet where PD have actually extended inside curbing almost like saying "use me". If PD tighten up, then that's fine by me.

I think the morality is a bit overboard IMO. I race as clean and hard as I can. I don't bump pass, and if I feel an overtake was slightly rough I relinquish my place. I would not corner skip or grass cut, but I do use the fastest lines permitted within the game.

@zzz_pt has taken some flak in this thread for no reason IMO, but I get your side of the discussion. I seem to be getting faster and more competitive and looking for every .100 of a second I can.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

If people were actually bypassing corners, or straight-lining chicaines I'd have an issue, but what's being discussed here is a few extra feet where PD have actually extended inside curbing almost like saying "use me". If PD tighten up, then that's fine by me.

I think the morality is a bit overboard IMO. I race as clean and hard as I can. I don't bump pass, and if I feel an overtake was slightly rough I relinquish my place. I would not corner skip or grass cut, but I do use the fastest lines permitted within the game.

@zzz_pt has taken some flak in this thread for no reason IMO, but I get your side of the discussion. I seem to be getting faster and more competitive and looking for every .100 of a second I can.

That's cool.
But I wasn't referring to Maggiore.

Nurb GP is my bugbear at the moment.
It's frankly ridiculous to see top 10 drivers, or anyone for that matter, abusing track limits to that extent.
Allowable or not.