Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[zzz_pt]

Exploiter uses built in bugs, or errors in the game's design to gain advantage. Zzz admited that this should be fixed.

I don't think it's a bug at all. And what I said is that PD could change it so the track limits are a bit stricter. But I said also that Gran Turismo has been like this for years and years and probably it won't change. It's not like PD doesn't know that some people still find the track limits unreasonable on some tracks. PD chose to design the tracks with the current limits and people will use them. If I don't, others will (and rightfully so). My arbitrary track limits are only that.

I also have an issue with the word exploiter. An exploit is the auto drive grind, for example, or the rubber banding, where you don't even drive the car and get credits and milage points. I don't do it but I don't care about those that do. It's something that doesn't affect me.

In order to make the lap you just saw, is needed more than "exploiting" the track limits. I don't get more than 0.5s because of it. That lap was on the top10 because the other 2:02:100 were driven on my absolute limit (which is not far from the car's limit, even though there are quite a few other drivers faster than me).

 

[Sagaben]

Like you said, we can debate if it is good sportmanship, and that's what this is, a debate.

Sportsmanship doesn't come into it. We compete on a level playing field within the track limits set. if you don't like the track limits then take it up with PD, but you absolutely cannot cast aspersions on someone who takes advantage of them. Coming on here saying such people are exploiters, or unsportsmanlike is out of order.

 

[Skiddy]

Sportsmanship doesn't come into it. We compete on a level playing field within the track limits set. if you don't like the track limits then take it up with PD, but you absolutely cannot cast aspersions on someone who takes advantage of them. Coming on here saying such people are exploiters, or unsportsmanlike is out of order.

So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with corner cutting we saw in the video? And to think people say there are not enough tracks in this game.

 

[Havoc26]

As long as one of the tires is on the curb stones then you aren't off the track. That's what they're there for. I honestly thought his lap was beautiful. If anything you should be reviewing the top 10 videos to see what you are able to achieve, not to hate on someone else because he clearly did. Once I saw his lap now, I'll go back and try those lines myself. It's no different than with an on-line FPS, when you see the kill-cam from that sniper that keeps getting you, you figure out where the good hiding spots are and use them yourself.

 

[Skiddy]

As long as one of the tires is on the curb stones then you aren't off the track. That's what they're there for. I honestly thought his lap was beautiful. If anything you should be reviewing the top 10 videos to see what you are able to achieve, not to hate on someone else because he clearly did. Once I saw his lap now, I'll go back and try those lines myself. It's no different than with an on-line FPS, when you see the kill-cam from that sniper that keeps getting you, you figure out where the good hiding spots are and use them yourself.

There is no hate man, chill, it's a discussion. As for FPS and kill cams, try playing it on hardcore servers, no kill cams there..

 

[shaunus]

So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with corner cutting we saw in the video? And to think people say there are not enough tracks in this game.

The only questionable corner on that video is turn 4(?) the last in the first sequence of turns. I do not think anyone would guess that you could take all that inner kerb like that unless they knew in advance. The rest of the lap he is on the kerbs and it is common knowledge that the standard is keep a wheel on the kerb.

 

[ColinNZ]

I was disappointed to find out that you can cut turn 4 like that, but the game allows it. It's no big deal.

 

[Sagaben]

So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with corner cutting we saw in the video? And to think people say there are not enough tracks in this game.

I don't know how much clearer I can be.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Thus the conclusion is, the lines on the road are merely a suggestion. In essence it's a game of exploration, in search of the actual invisible track limits. It would make more sense if PD painted the actual limits on the road or grass. That would prevent a lot of accidents between people following different track limits.

 

[Imari]

I didn't call anybody a cheater, I called him an exploiter. Big difference, don't put words in my mouth, pay a bit more attention, it discredits you.

That's interesting. You made this post earlier in the thread. One could easily assume from your stance on the matter that you were one of the "some people" that thought he was "cheating".

I believe this forum right here represents the driver side, our say, otherwise what is the point? The author of the thread saw something that he considered track abuse and opened a discussion about it. Some people think he is cheating, others defend him.

Wanna pay a bit more attention to your own words? It discredits you when you accuse others of putting words in your mouth falsely.

Cheater uses illegal assets, such as aimbots to achieve advantage. Exploiter uses built in bugs, or errors in the game's design to gain advantage. Zzz admited that this should be fixed.

If you wish to make this distinction, certainly. Replace all instances of "cheater" in my post with "exploiter". It doesn't change the meaning of what I said at all. Feel free to respond to that instead of quibbling over words that you think you haven't used.

You may want to be careful what words you put in @zzz_pt mouth as well, since you're so concerned with the words that I supposedly put in yours.

I have no problem with accepting that zzz is better player than me, which I clearly stated. His driving is excellent, but that particular lap, in my opinion, is not clean, sorry try again.

And you're wrong. The single decider of a clean or unclean lap is the game. The game says it's clean.

Like you said, we can debate if it is good sportmanship, and that's what this is, a debate.

I was referring to the example of ramming someone off the road. As far as hotlapping goes, if the game allows it and it's not a bug that's good sportsmanship. No other players are inconvenienced or punished by simply being fast and the whole track is fair territory. Other players are free to respond to that lap as they see fit.

Explain how a fast lap that anyone else is free to duplicate is unsportsmanlike.

So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with corner cutting we saw in the video?

Yes. That is what all these people are saying to you. Stop trying to make it sound like we just said that there's nothing wrong with murdering puppies.

Thus the conclusion is, the lines on the road are merely a suggestion. In essence it's a game of exploration, in search of the actual invisible track limits. It would make more sense if PD painted the actual limits on the road or grass. That would prevent a lot of accidents between people following different track limits.

Basically, yeah. It's not actually that dissimilar to real life. At some corners stewards will allow significant cutting, at others they will not. The only way you really know is either by asking them or looking at how it has been enforced previously. Since this is a game, we can just test it and see what happens. Easy squeezy.

For example, they changed the rules on cutting the corner with the pit entrance at Interlagos a few years ago. For a long time it was known to be a cut and deemed to be acceptable. Then they changed it. No worries. Whatever are the rules at the time are what gets used.

There's an argument for not having the limits clearly visible in race because it stops people pushing right up against them with no risk of penalty. But it'd be nice to be able to see them in a training mode or free run just so that people can familiarise themselves.

 

[kjeldsen]

So you're saying that there is nothing wrong with corner cutting we saw in the video? And to think people say there are not enough tracks in this game.

You are fundamentally wrong. There is no illegal corner cutting in op video. There is track limits and when you leave them you get punished it is so simple that this thread is surprise. I expected the op to have found a clear exploit and just an example of a perfectly executed qualify lap..

 

[Tassie_tiger]

The example lap in the OP looks fine to me.
Nothing too extreme.
Turn 4 is a very important corner of that track.
There is plenty of lap time to be gained or lost there.
I personally would have expected a shortcut penalty if I was to find myself that far inside the corner, but it that isn't the case then so be it.


Nurburg GP is probably my pet peeve for track abuse.
Particularly the first sector.
And it's back as Race C today.

Here's a fun exercise.
Go to qualy TT and just drive sector one, ignoring any self-imposed track limits, and check your sector time.
Then run sector one again, staying within the white line track limits, and check your sector time.
(And if I had to guess, I imagine that difference only increases as tyre wear increases.)
Times the difference by 8 (todays lap count) and see what that equates to in total race time.

PD need to tighten up the track limits, and Nurburg GP is where I would start.

 

[kimkafwan]

I don't think it's a bug at all. And what I said is that PD could change it so the track limits are a bit stricter. But I said also that Gran Turismo has been like this for years and years and probably it won't change. It's not like PD doesn't know that some people still find the track limits unreasonable on some tracks. PD chose to design the tracks with the current limits and people will use them. If I don't, others will (and rightfully so). My arbitrary track limits are only that.

I also have an issue with the word exploiter. An exploit is the auto drive grind, for example, or the rubber banding, where you don't even drive the car and get credits and milage points. I don't do it but I don't care about those that do. It's something that doesn't affect me.

In order to make the lap you just saw, is needed more than "exploiting" the track limits. I don't get more than 0.5s because of it. That lap was on the top10 because the other 2:02:100 were driven on my absolute limit (which is not far from the car's limit, even though there are quite a few other drivers faster than me).

You're not "cheating" but you're wrong if you think there is no consequences because no matter what you will stay fast.
I'm not by any means "fast" only "good" and half a second is a HUGE gap for us average players.

And you're not really "honest" when you ironically wrote you didn't cut on yamagiya because we know why: grass ...

 

[Imari]

I'm not by any means "fast" only "good" and half a second is a HUGE gap for us average players.

Congratulations. You just made a huge improvement and got half a second faster, because now you can do it too.

 

[zzz_pt]

You're not "cheating" but you're wrong if you think there is no consequences because no matter what you will stay fast.
I'm not by any means "fast" only "good" and half a second is a HUGE gap for us average players.

And you're not really "honest" when ironically wrote you didn't cut on yamagiya because we know why: grass ...

You can not cut through the grass there. 2 wheels have to be on the curb otherwise you get a penalty.

So if I cut I'm a cheater for some guys, if I don't, I'm dishonest for others. Great. Every single one of the top drivers is either a cheater or dishonest. Because logic.

 

[burgavo]

lol, yeah it's a bit of a problem with a lot of racing games. To be fair to zzz_pt he's not doing anything wrong as far as the game is concerned. What makes it even funnier to me is this games supposed connection to the FIA and their recent spat with track limit abuse.

The only game/competition where I feel they actually managed to police this somewhat effectively was pCars1 and their lcs and ncs time trial events. Although even there they couldn't manage it entirely within the game and the top 20 had to save a chasecam replay and check it to see if they kept 2 wheels within the white lines at all times, and provide these as proof they did not cut the track should the organisers ask for it.
I understand that the only reason they did this at all is because there were actual prizes and cash on the line, and the team guys at the sharp end of the field would try anything to get a slight advantage (account sharing, getting an extra run-up on the start finish straight to start a lap with a higher speed than otherwise possible, going through the pits on silversone because that was faster, etc etc) It could get real salty in the forum threads for these competitions with accusations flying to and fro.

I still think it's a bit dissapointing that gt cant police track limits in a more realistic/believable way on tracks with a lot of extra tarmac around the edges
but thats the way it stands at the moment. I'm with the OP though in hoping they tighten this up a bit.

sry for rambling on

 

[250Cal]

What a non-story.

The track limits are the same for everyone and are set by PD.

I was in several races with @zzz_pt the other day and he was consistently at the head of the field. Do I label him a cheat? Nope. He beat me. I need to get faster. End of.

 

[bokimoto]

I think some of us play this game to drive, and then a lot of these folks play it to game.

If you can exploit track limits, fine.
If you can bump your opponent off the track in the last corner, and the game allows it, fine.
If you can ride the wall, be faster, and the game allows it, fine.
It's just game, right?

Play it as a gamer, or play it as a driver.
We all set our own limits, according to what we want out of GTS.

 

[250Cal]

I think some of us play this game to drive, and then a lot of these folks play it to game.

If you can exploit track limits, fine.
If you can bump your opponent off the track in the last corner, and the game allows it, fine.
If you can ride the wall, be faster, and the game allows it, fine.
It's just game, right?

Play it as a gamer, or play it as a driver.
We all set our own limits, according to what we want out of GTS.

Track limits is entirely different to punting people off or riding the wall.

 

[bokimoto]

Track limits is entirely different to punting people off or riding the wall.

Breaking an obvious limit, because the game allows it. Same.

 

[250Cal]

Breaking an obvious limit, because the game allows it. Same.

No, fundamentally disagree.

Track limits - same for everyone and a racing convention.
Wall riding and punting - cheating.

 

[kitchenboy]

Breaking an obvious limit, because the game allows it. Same.

How is that the same?? Punting someone off causes a fellow player to lose position and possibly SR and also leads to untold Posts about broken game on GT Planet, Using Track limits to the fullest does not impede any other driver

 

[RFSnake]

Track limits - same for everyone and a racing convention.

Crossing the curbstones to cut a corner does not count as a valid option in regular racing.
But as i stated earlier, to me it should be fixed, but as long as it isnt, just use the option. After all, PD seems to consider this as a valid option for now, and its a well known thing in the game. And they have shown in previous games that they can make the track limits more strict if they wanted (by putting pylons in the corners and automaticly disqualify the lap whenever you hit one - and i also do agree that for the current state of racing this would be a very anoying thing to have).

Wall riding and punting - cheating.

Its still part of the game, it is possible to do this because the game doesnt punish you. And under your logic, its still the same for everyone.
If we look at Wipeout HD, if you collide with a wall there, you dont always slow down a lot, but sticking to the wall gives such a big slowdown it becomes impossible to exploit. And with that, you also take damage by doing so (although easily negated).
If this is cheating, crossing the track limits also is.

The only proper way for PD to prevent both is to make sure that both are not going to give any benefits.

Do note that the only way most developers fix bugs/exploits is by massive abuse of them. And in this case, its still difficult enough to abuse these. It doesnt matter exactly where the corners are, you still have to drive accurately.

 

[flamingchariot]

I find if you at the back this won't fly plus it tends to be messy lol...when I've been up in 3rd or 4/5 I've gotten away with it on some tracks I don't see what the issue is as long as all 4 wheels aren't off track. The rule used to be 2 wheels on track for non disqualification on licences I assume this applies to corner clipping (not cutting) on races . To drive round some corners risks getting into that low speed slide zone where the tyres squeal and you lose seconds.
Makes no sense. Don't be bad sports try and play better.

 

[250Cal]

Crossing the curbstones to cut a corner does not count as a valid option in regular racing.
But as i stated earlier, to me it should be fixed, but as long as it isnt, just use the option. After all, PD seems to consider this as a valid option for now, and its a well known thing in the game. And they have shown in previous games that they can make the track limits more strict if they wanted (by putting pylons in the corners and automaticly disqualify the lap whenever you hit one - and i also do agree that for the current state of racing this would be a very anoying thing to have).

Its still part of the game, it is possible to do this because the game doesnt punish you. And under your logic, its still the same for everyone.

Nonsense.

 

[nord_clane]

This thread...oh boy! The comparisons that are made here are hilarious...punting someone offtrack is the same than corner cutting? YOu got to be kidding!

Go look at todays Gr.4 Race at the Nürburgring: Sector 1 is a big mess regarding track limits, especially the runoff area @ T2.

I didn't know you can cut so much but in the first race were i was leading i saw the guy behind me get on the runoff area way more than i do and he was always gaining on me because of that. On the rest of the track i was better than him.

So what should i do in your opinion? Let him past round the outside at T2 or do the same and maintain the gap? Clearly i did the same to cancel out the adavantage he got. And i would do that in other races too because of the possibility that others do it...

There are even real racing series where the drivers cut corners like hell becuase the rules about track limits allow this. A video has been posted here too, it was a porsche series racing @ COTA...

But i didn't saw the porsches ram each other straight off track or pushing each other in walls because "it's the same"

And this is clearly different than punting someone off track. If we both cut T2, there is no advantage for both of us. On the other hand, if someone punts me off track he has a biiiig advantage over me. if we punt each other of track, we are dumb, this is called road rage Totally different mindset than cutting T2.

Polyphony just needs to do something about track limits.

 

[Mr P]

This thread just goes round and round and round in circles haha A bit like this little chap here..

Everyone thinks they have the answer.. but nobody really has the answer! It's probably best to leave a driver to make their own judgements until PD gets a sniff of this sloppy breach on their part and updates GTS with more stringent penalties for track abuses that certain people consider par for the norm 👍

Carry on guys!

 

[kilesa4568]

Can't believe it's still going on. 10 pages with 3 pages worth of original comments.

 

[Havoc26]

There is no hate man, chill, it's a discussion. As for FPS and kill cams, try playing it on hardcore servers, no kill cams there..

I wasn't specifically talking about you, just in general the past 250 or so comments on this page have been anywhere from he's a cheater, to this game is terrible because the track limits are so loosely defined, to this is the same as the pit glitch bug. I guess I should've replied to the OP to make it more clear...

Either way, we as players should be able to recognize good racing and learn from each other. That's what's so awesome about Sport mode IMO, I get to see what the top racers are doing and try my best to mimic it. Like @zzz_pt said, we are all able to do the same thing, he wasn't exploiting a bug, he was pushing the game to it's limits. So either we get on board and get our lap times down or don't because of some high ground morality "that's not real racing, the FIA wouldn't allow it..." BS.

 

[zzz_pt]

I think some of us play this game to drive, and then a lot of these folks play it to game.

If you can exploit track limits, fine.
If you can bump your opponent off the track in the last corner, and the game allows it, fine.
If you can ride the wall, be faster, and the game allows it, fine.
It's just game, right?

Play it as a gamer, or play it as a driver.
We all set our own limits, according to what we want out of GTS.

Breaking an obvious limit, because the game allows it. Same.

The people who do all those 3 things are not the same. I like to drive and explore the maximum limite of the track.

Riding walls is not something I do ever because that doesn't happen in real life racing. Same for punting others - if you that IRL you get penalized, disqualified or banned, it depends. People who do that are simply dirty drivers. Oh, and they do the real corner cutting because they often will cut to grass just to hit you.

Lumping everyone in the same category doesn't make sense. In my experience, the faster drivers are the cleanest and most respectful of others on track.

Another important topic here, relative to Lake Maggiore, is that it's a fictional track to which we can not compare real life track limits. On this track there are 4 places with white surface inside the red/white strip. Those 4 places are counted as curb in GTS. Everyone rides happily the other 3 since day one. But somehow, on turn 4 that's cutting.

Turn 3 - you can do what I did in T4.
Turn 8 - you can do what I did in T4.
Turn 11 - you can do what I did in T4.

And pretty much everyone will do it on those corners, in every race.

But T4, somehow, it's different.

To everyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, here is the video:



Track limits in lake maggiore. The turns I mentioned above are all part of the track/curb. Like the green surface on Nurb GP. You can use it (2 wheels). Beyond that and you're out of the limits.

I tested it in Time Trial and got not penalties on that lap. I wasn't going full speed to make sure I put the car in every possible curb limit.

Now, you make with that information whatever you want.