Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[D3V]

Yeah... i know, i told (swear), i'll not say anything in this thread anymore... (3times "I" in one Sentence, i'm in love with me )
But(t), me myself and i had an other meaning of this :-P

quoted it, that the rage can go on... (it's quite funny)
EDIT: sorry... BB-Code won't work as i expected... so sorry for this huge meaningless talk of myself (me and i)
at least i'll make it very small...


[First of All]
This thread should be in the (Let's Dream Thread, What if Kaz.....)
It was very clearly said by many of you, the game allows it (everyone can do it), so it's not cheating (except that stupid PIT-Bug, which annoys me also).
((Again thanks to zzz_pt for showing that Cheater-Guy how worse he is !!!))

Then...
No matter what Dev's do, it's never the same in front of a Computer/Console, {speaking about G-Forces (neck-muscles, fear of destroying your pretty Car/Bike)}
But there are some things, i'll guess would be very easy to fix for the programmers, if they would listen to the Community (or had experience driving on a Track).
For Example: I'm completly ok with two wheels on the curbs (i like the "Brrrrrrrr"-Sound), but if i programmed this Game, i would definitely give a penalty for going out to Grass with some wheels.

Answers:

I do alot of track days on my Ducati and there is no way you would catch me doing that. Actually I've never seen anyone on the track days do that on purpose.

neither do i, but... give me a Bike (i didn't pay for, and my insurance is ok with) I'll try that too. (The same on the Cadwell-Park... give me YOUR (or any Bike) i'll try jumping immediately) it's on my Bucket-List

I wonder how long it took to pull the seat cover out of his butt when he stopped after the race?

Fun Fact is: he did the same the next day... but he changed the Rims... he took stronger ones :-D (Gladiator 4 Life)

Well he hasn't got 4 wheels off track so I suppose it's not cutting the corner.

It's the Grey-Zone . But honestly for the spectators... just awesome
ok, not even near the TT-Guys...

 

[Famine]

Pit bug = advantage gained but not sanctioned by the game.
Corner cutting = advantage gained but not sanctioned by the game.

The game does not class this as a corner cut - and never has. Previous GT games had similar instances, such as the giant concrete run-off at Deep Forest.

So again, they are not equivalent.

I always tought the white line defines the track limit.2 wheels in, 2 wheels out, that is acceptible. 4 wheels outside the white line...sorry. To me this is a clear exploit.

What you thought isn't relevant - and is wrong anyway. There is no set standard for what the track is, anywhere. The basic FIA rule set states that, "for the avoidance of doubt", the track should be considered to be all surfaces between the white lines, but that isn't a defined limitation. The bit between the white lines is the starting point. And the two tyre rule you mention isn't standard either.

What constitutes the track at any given race is agreed between the drivers and the stewards at the driver briefing. It may include kerbs and other surfaces such as concrete and astroturf runoff.

Here, the stewards (Polyphony Digital) have decided that where @zzz_pt is driving is part of the track. To them it's not an exploit at all, so it doesn't matter if you think it is or not.

 

[Skiddy]

You're making an assumption that it's not sanctioned by the game. The fact that the developers have had to explicitly designate track limits would suggest that anything inside them is sanctioned by the game. The fact that some of the track limits seem to be quite...permissive...is another discussion. But the rules of the game are very clear, and using them to your advantage is not only not cheating, it's correct and optimal competitive play.

By making up your own rule set and refusing to play the game as designed, you're relegating yourself to being a scrub. See definition below.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Am I supposed to read this article in the link? Look, I see you are trying to defend a long time gtp member, you might even be a lawyer, who knows. The corner cutter could provide us with a clean lap video, but instead he tried to defend his style of driving, saying the other guys do it to, the game alows it, blah,blah... He just keeps shoveling it...

To me, that says something about the integrity of the guy, his credibility, the credibility of his lap times, trophies etc..

 

[SkylineR88]

Dude its a game. wow.


I wanted to say more about this but it has already been said in this thread.
There is a clear majority of people who are in agreement that the track limits are defined by the game giving penalties when you cross them. In a lot of cases the white lines have nothing to do with this. I would like to post several anaolgies to emphasise my point.

i.e. In Fifa the rules are not always the same as in real life, I think this is to do with a limitation of the game's engine. The advantage rule is one in particular which is not handled perfectly by the game, often no advantage is given when in real life there would be a play on instead of a free kick.

 

[Skiddy]

What constitutes the track at any given race is agreed between the drivers and the stewards at the driver briefing. It may include kerbs and other surfaces such as concrete and astroturf runoff.

Here, the stewards (Polyphony Digital) have decided that where @zzz_pt is driving is part of the track. To them it's not an exploit at all, so it doesn't matter if you think it is or not.

..agreed between the drivers and the stewards...
And what do the drivers say? But to you our opinon doesn't matter...

 

[Famine]

..agreed between the drivers and the stewards...
And what do the drivers say? But to you our opinon doesn't matter...

It's a game. You have no such two-way dialogue between the players (drivers) and developers (stewards). The developers decide what they wish and we all deal with it.

In this case, the developers decided that this is where the track limits, and we all deal with it.

You can drive to different limits if you want - that's your choice - but no-one else is beholden to stick to your limits of choice (which aren't even supported by real world racing) and I'm afraid you don't get to condemn other drivers as cheaters if they don't, so long as they stay within the limits the developers have set.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

It's a game. You have no such two-way dialogue between the players (drivers) and developers (stewards). The developers decide what they wish and we all deal with it.

In this case, the developers decided that this is where the track limits, and we all deal with it.

I think that if there were a section within the game that had the track map layouts such as in circuit experience where the maps were more detailed and on each circuit you could see the allowable acceptable track limits for the different corners say in green that showed the acceptable outer boundaries I may feel a little better concerning some of the games lets just say generous limits in some corners.

As it is now you have to spend a lot of time perhaps driving laps in a style you do not normally run just to find out where the game penalizes you just to know where the limit is at.

 

[zzz_pt]

Am I supposed to read this article in the link? Look, I see you are trying to defend a long time gtp member, you might even be a lawyer, who knows. The corner cutter could provide us with a clean lap video, but instead he tried to defend his style of driving, saying the other guys do it to, the game alows it, blah,blah... He just keeps shoveling it...

To me, that says something about the integrity of the guy, his credibility, the credibility of his lap times, trophies etc..

https://media3.giphy.com/media/F3G8ymQkOkbII/giphy.gif

 

[Skiddy]

It's a game. You have no such two-way dialogue between the players (drivers) and developers (stewards). The developers decide what they wish and we all deal with it.

In this case, the developers decided that this is where the track limits, and we all deal with it.

You can drive to different limits if you want - that's your choice - but no-one else is beholden to stick to your limits of choice (which aren't even supported by real world racing) and I'm afraid you don't get to condemn other drivers as cheaters if they don't, so long as they stay within the limits the developers have set.

I believe this forum right here represents the driver side, our say, otherwise what is the point? The author of the thread saw something that he considered track abuse and opened a discussion about it. Some people think he is cheating, others defend him.
Let's say you get hit from behind by a driver and he goes on wining in the end, and your loose first place becuse of it, but the game doesn'sanction the reckless driver?
Did he cheat? Do you value his victory equally? I wonder..

https://media3.giphy.com/media/F3G8ymQkOkbII/giphy.gif

That's right honey.

 

[zzz_pt]

I believe this forum right here represents the driver side, our say, otherwise what is the point? The author of the thread saw something that he considered track abuse and opened a discussion about it. Some people think he is cheating, others defend him.
Let's say you get hit from behind by a driver and he goes on wining in the end, and your loose first place becuse of it, but the game doesn'sanction the reckless driver?
Did he cheat? Do you value his victory equally? I wonder..

That analogy is epic. Facepalm.

 

[jwest]

People take video games and the internet too seriously.

 

[Skiddy]

That analogy is epic. Facepalm.

It is perfect, the reckless driver gained advantage, robbed you of your victory, and he didn't get sanctioned. The game allowed it so it must be ok! And the best part, you get to do the same to some other poor guy in the next race, beacuse,as you say, it is available to every one.

People take video games and the internet too seriously.

Welcome to the GTP...

 

[Lion-Face]

I don't like the way the game allows players to run that far off the track. It was probably intended as not to punish players who are pushed wide during a tight battle, but that is only my guess. I would like to see the white lines become the hard limit of the track.

But until then, your allowed to play within the rules of the game as they have been setup. I have started to use these to my advantage myself, notably first sector in Nurburgring running wide at turns 2 and 4. Watching the video in the OP I don't like how the track is 'cut' so much. But can't take away from the fact that was a great lap time, supremely smooth and clean throughout. Done within the laws of the time trail so totally legit. I hope to one day be that clean and precise around a circuit.

What I would like to know is how many laps did that take you @zzz_pt ? Great lap.

 

[zzz_pt]

It is perfect, the reckless driver gained advantage, robbed you of your victory, and he didn't get sanctioned. The game allowed it so it must be ok! And the best part, you get to do the same to some other poor guy in the next race, beacuse,as you say, it is available to every one.

If I reck someone, I'm directly affecting his game. If I use all the limits of the track, he can do it too. And if he's faster than me, he can win. In the first case someone loses. In the second, no.

@Lion-Face the first top1 lap I did yesterday took me only 3 laps. It was a 2:02:752.

The one in the video took me maybe 45m. Just to shove 0.151 of that first lap. I was tired too as this was already after midnight.

 

[AdamA998]

@Foofer37

Hey dude, you're entitled to your opinion and whoever tells you you are unwelcome here ignore them. I'd love to have you as part of our GT community. As far as his driving, I think you get a penalty for those cuts during a live race in Sport mode. I guess in trial mode it's okay. I think he is an S driver anyway so he is still really fast.

 

[Skiddy]

If you do this in qualifying, you are affecting other people's game. Some people do not know of this exploit, and drive within limits of what they consider normal. Look, you found something other people find questinable.

 

[baldgye]

If you do this in qualifying, you are affecting other people's game. Some people do not know of this exploit, and drive within limits of what they consider normal. Look, you found something other people find questinable.

If people don’t know the limits they can push to on a track the only people have the to blame are themselves

Oh I didn’t know I could take T3 in 4th?! EXPLOIT!
Oh that racing line is totally different to mine!?
EXPLOIT!

This thread has made for some brilliant reading, I love the idea/concept of ethical racing too

 

[Sagaben]

I believe this forum right here represents the driver side, our say, otherwise what is the point? The author of the thread saw something that he considered track abuse and opened a discussion about it. Some people think he is cheating, others defend him.
Let's say you get hit from behind by a driver and he goes on wining in the end, and your loose first place becuse of it, but the game doesn'sanction the reckless driver?
Did he cheat? Do you value his victory equally? I wonder..

Take your cue from the real world.

Track limits are a bone of contention in nearly all categories of motorsport. They are fluid, determined by whoever organises a particular race. In our case that's PD. If PD let you cut a corner then it's fair game unless they change it. For the most part we like it or lump it. We're not sitting in a driver's briefing giving our point of view. OP is doing what any real-life racing driver does. Take every advantage. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. The chicane at my local-ish circuit is negotiated (with no complaints) as below. I'm sure many other circuits have similar corners.

As for ramming other drivers off track. You see my point hopefully.

 

[Skiddy]

If people don’t know the limits they can push to on a track the only people have the to blame are themselves

Oh I didn’t know I could take T3 in 4th?! EXPLOIT!
Oh that racing line is totally different to mine!?
EXPLOIT!

This thread has made for some brilliant reading, I love the idea/concept of ethical racing too

So if if I push you of the track, and don't get penalty, that's ok?

 

[kimkafwan]

If people don’t know the limits they can push to on a track the only people have the to blame are themselves

Oh I didn’t know I could take T3 in 4th?! EXPLOIT!
Oh that racing line is totally different to mine!?
EXPLOIT!

This thread has made for some brilliant reading, I love the idea/concept of ethical racing too

Do you already forgot than we have to watch 2 videos before playing sport mode? i honestly think a majority of players won't try to check tracks limits.

 

[zzz_pt]

If you do this in qualifying, you are affecting other people's game. Some people do not know of this exploit, and drive within limits of what they consider normal. Look, you found something other people find questinable.

Do you think I've "found" this? Have you been looking into top10 times at all? Guess how I've "found" it.

Everyone has access to the top10 laps. If you choose to ignore them you can't complain about not going through the optimal line/gears/breaking points/apexes.

I watch the top laps to learn from them so I can be faster. They're not affecting me by being faster, especially since their laps are public for all to see, replicate and improve upon.

Victimization complex is cancer. Do your best within the game's rules without affecting other people's game. That's basic and what I (and a lot of other people) do is just that.

 

[baldgye]

So if if I push you of the track, and don't get penalty, that's ok?

What do you even mean?
If you hit me you’ll lose SR and if you cause a collision chances are you will too... how are the two even remotely related?

Like yeah, corner cutting/track extending effects people because it shows the fastest route to the line... but I could come to your house, login to your GTSport account smash into everyone I could find ruin your SR and DR ratings and that would not only effect other people, but also be as relevant a comparison as crashing into people, and taking the LEGAL fastest lap

 

[Skiddy]

Do you think I've "found" this? Have you been looking into top10 times at all? Guess how I've "found" it.

Everyone has access to the top10 laps. If you choose to ignore them you can't complain about not going through the optimal line/gears/breaking points/apexes.

I watch the top laps to learn from them so I can be faster. They're not affecting me by being faster, especially since their laps are public for all to see, replicate and improve upon.

Victimization complex is cancer. Do your best within the game's rules without affecting other people's game. That's basic and what I (and a lot of other people) do is just that.

I'm not considering myself a victim here. You didn't race against me. But that is corner cutting

 

[zzz_pt]

I'm not considering myself a victim here. You didn't race against me. But that is legal corner cutting

Ftfy.

 

[Famine]

I believe this forum right here represents the driver side, our say, otherwise what is the point?

We're not an official forum, we have no ties to Sony or PD and at best we'd represent about 10% of the people who own GT Sport (in reality, probably 0.1%... or less). So no, we don't represent the driver's view to the stewards. The stewards set the rules and we deal with it.

Here, the driver in question drove within the predefined track limits. It may not be to your liking, and you may drive to your own different standards - just as you would be entitled to do in a real race when drivers and stewards agree track limits you think are too lax - but no-one is beholden to drive to any standards but the ones set out by the stewards. So we deal with it.

 

[IAMDOODLEBUG]

I really do not get how people are lumping this in the same category as bumping past somebody or the pit glitch. There are clearly two camps but even the "anything past the asphalt is a crime" crew can't honestly compare using the track limits to exploiting bugs in the game or ramming!

Anybody who has hotlapped on PC2 should know that the race director is a Nazi when it comes to corner cutting. If he spots you even looking at a run off he will punish you. He knows when you are contemplating a little cut, he can see into your soul. You push the limit, you think you get away with it. "Maybe he didn't see me", you think to yourself. He waits patiently for you to start the next lap, 5 tenths up, lulled into a false sense of security, then he pounces with the almighty stick of perpetual invalidation. Your life is meaningless. Anyhow, I digress! GTS clearly a little too generous with track limits and they should be tighter, but until they are it is perfectly valid to utilise them.

 

[Imari]

Am I supposed to read this article in the link? Look, I see you are trying to defend a long time gtp member, you might even be a lawyer, who knows. The corner cutter could provide us with a clean lap video, but instead he tried to defend his style of driving, saying the other guys do it to, the game alows it, blah,blah... He just keeps shoveling it...

I'm not trying to defend anyone. If the game allows corner cutting then corner cutting is a legitimate tactic.

You're the one who keeps trying to apply rules from another sport as if they apply to this game. That's primary scrub rationalisation right there.

I merely put that link there because Sirlin's Play To Win articles are one of the best written descriptions of the difference between players like @zzz_pt who accept the game how it is and try to do their best and players like you who come in with a set of predefined restrictions on your own play that will make sure that you never do your best and so always have an excuse for not winning.

I'm not surprised that you didn't read it. It would probably be a little confronting to have to either accept your own playstyle as non-optimal or to throw away your self-imposed and arbitrary rules.

To me, that says something about the integrity of the guy, his credibility, the credibility of his lap times, trophies etc..

As opposed to you, who is happy to label people as cheaters for simply following the rules the game sets out. To me, that says something about your intellectual integrity and your ability to accept that other people are straight up better at the game than you. And better primarily because they work harder and smarter, and don't limit themselves with emotion and arbitrary moralistic standards.

It's awfully easy to label great players as cheaters because they do this and that. It's much harder to say "Wow, they really spent a lot of time learning what the game will allow and learning to execute that to a high level. That's pretty impressive, and maybe one day I could do that too."

People who are good are so largely because they find whatever way works best within the rules. If the game allows it, it's within the rules. If the game doesn't judge a certain line as corner cutting, it's within the rules.

That may not be the way you would have designed the game, but it's not your game. It's Polyphony's, and we play according to the rules that they set. As such, your accusations of cheating are somewhere between sour grapes and straight up abuse.

If you do this in qualifying, you are affecting other people's game. Some people do not know of this exploit, and drive within limits of what they consider normal. Look, you found something other people find questinable.

Yep, and they haven't put the time into the game to learn how to maximise their line. People who have should be rewarded for their hard work. People like you who assume that they know where the track limits are without testing it should not be rewarded.

Is it questionable in a fighting game if I've bothered to learn combos and my opponent hasn't? Is it questionable in an MOBA if I learn where an opponents champion is weak and use that against them? I think you seem to have a problem with the fact that other people put time into learning how to get better at the game, and they can use that to be faster than you.

So if if I push you of the track, and don't get penalty, that's ok?

You can debate whether it's good sportsmanship or good game design, but the game allows it. You'll see that games with more rigorous online systems like iRacing have appeal structures so that penalties can still be assessed for actions that the automated systems don't pick up. GTS has no such thing, and so anything that isn't penalised or a bug is allowable.

You may say that would make GTS a bad game, and I would agree with you. But game rules should not be fuzzy and dependent on individual interpretation. If it's a rule, the game should enforce it. If it doesn't and that leads to a degenerate environment, then that's just a bad game.

Do you already forgot than we have to watch 2 videos before playing sport mode? i honestly think a majority of players won't try to check tracks limits.

The majority of players also don't care enough to try and push themselves for hours to try and achieve top 10 times.

I think things like this that reward players who experiment and learn game systems for themselves is actually a desirable aspect of the game. I don't think this particular situation is a good one, but I like the idea that people who spend more time learning about the game systems end up better players because of it. It's much more prevalent in fighting games than racing games, but it still exists sometimes.

See 2FootMagicSaveHax for example, some people learned that technique and were then significantly better at the game than others because of it.

 

[Skiddy]

We're not an official forum, we have no ties to Sony or PD and at best we'd represent about 10% of the people who own GT Sport (in reality, probably 0.1%... or less). So no, we don't represent the driver's view to the stewards. The stewards set the rules and we deal with it.

Here, the driver in question drove within the predefined track limits. It may not be to your liking, and you may drive to your own different standards - just as you would be entitled to do in a real race when drivers and stewards agree track limits you think are too lax - but no-one is beholden to drive to any standards but the ones set out by the stewards. So we deal with it.

So why didn't you close the thread? You obviously disagree with the author of this thread, so why did you allow this discusion in the first place?

 

[Famine]

So why didn't you close the thread? You obviously disagree with the author of this thread, so why did you allow this discusion in the first place?

GTPlanet doesn't work that way. Simply not agreeing with a premise isn't grounds for preventing any discussion about it - or why it isn't correct.

 

[Skiddy]

As opposed to you, who is happy to label people as cheaters for simply following the rules the game sets out. To me, that says something about your intellectual integrity and your ability to accept that other people are straight up better at the game than you. And better primarily because they work harder and smarter, and don't limit themselves with emotion and arbitrary moralistic standards.

It's awfully easy to label great players as cheaters because they do this and that.

You can debate whether it's good sportsmanship or good game design, but the game allows it.

I didn't call anybody a cheater, I called him an exploiter. Big difference, don't put words in my mouth, pay a bit more attention, it discredits you.
Cheater uses illegal assets, such as aimbots to achieve advantage. Exploiter uses built in bugs, or errors in the game's design to gain advantage. Zzz admited that this should be fixed.

I have no problem with accepting that zzz is better player than me, which I clearly stated. His driving is excellent, but that particular lap, in my opinion, is not clean, sorry try again.
Like you said, we can debate if it is good sportmanship, and that's what this is, a debate.