traction vs camber (updated results post #24)

[nomis3613]

Hi Folks,
Here is some testing I did of traction with different camber angles, for both online and offline.

The testing was done as acceleration over standing 1.05km to measure the effect of traction. Offline results are repeatable to within +/- 0.002 seconds. I don't know why, but the consistency online is +/-0.005 seconds. Testing was done with a 707 bhp Toyota Supra RZ on sports hard tyres.

Here are the acceleration times:
r camber | offline| online
_______0.0 | 19.859 | 19.907
_______0.5 | 19.856 | 19.898
_______1.0 | 19.863
_______1.5 | 19.881
_______2.0 | 19.889

(online testing takes more time, so I only did enough tests to see if the trend is rough the same as offline)

I'm keen to hear (especially from the drag racing folks) about your thoughts of traction online vs offline.

Cheers,
Simon

 

[W3H5]

So do you have a conclusion on are we to surmise our own theory?

 

[nomis3613]

Hi Shem, just thought I'd share the results and see what you folks think of it.

Amongst other things, I think it confirms there is a fundamental difference in grip online vs offline. Especially since for offline the tyres were dead cold at launch, whereas online they had been warmed up by the out-lap (I forgot to mention that above).

Cheers,
Simon

 

[DLR]

I drag race A LOT. Tune my cars online and race them online. When I went offline to do some photo shots, I noticed a significant amount of additional traction. Example, online, my Viper ACR would hit 164, 165 if a good run (This is at Indy). Offline it would easily touch 166 sometimes 167...

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Hi Shem, just thought I'd share the results and see what you folks think of it.

Amongst other things, I think it confirms there is a fundamental difference in grip online vs offline. Especially since for offline the tyres were dead cold at launch, whereas online they had been warmed up by the out-lap (I forgot to mention that above).

Cheers,
Simon

Why did you warm them up? If you launched cold in the offline tests, then launch cold on the online tests.

Also, do as many runs online as offline. Yes, we all know that you run slower online. The question is, how much slower, and since you are testing camber affects, are the affects more pronounced online?

 

[nomis3613]

Why did you warm them up?

Because I had to run almost a whole lap to get to the timing point online. Because of where you start offline, I just had to do the final corner before lining up at the start line.

Also, tyre heat is different online vs offline. Even if I smoked the offline tyres in the previous turn, they would be cold by the time I launched. Online the tyres cool down a lot slower.

 

[Smuttysy]

Did a similar test myself, and here's the video comparison:

 

[nomis3613]

Smuttsy, thanks for sharing your testing. Yeah, there's huge differences in the handling, it'd be great to work out the cause(s).

If I may take a bit of a tangent, I reckon the Trial Mountain track is different online vs offline. The first tight left (heading into the tunnel, just after the high speed chicane) was understeer central in my FR offline. But online there was some wierd camber thing going on which made the car try to spin out. And the short straight just before the finish line has some nasty bumps offline, but online its much more gentle.

It's true that the car handling was also different online, but the differences I've mentioned seem to be caused by the track itself.

 

[CSLACR]

I race with people that practice all week offline and observe zero difference, it may be a connection issue altogether.
I've always seen the difference, but my connection has never been great, just usable.

The guy I know races online a lot, and has a 50mb connection, so I'm theorizing in that direction currently.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I race with people that practice all week offline and observe zero difference, it may be a connection issue altogether.
I've always seen the difference, but my connection has never been great, just usable.

The guy I know races online a lot, and has a 50mb connection, so I'm theorizing in that direction currently.

It has always been my observation, and the observation of anyone whose mentioned it in the leagues that I've been in, that the difference is always there, even if you are in a lobby by yourself.

Not much of a connection problem there.

 

[Lambob]

Before the recent Maintenance(s): If I hosted games, my "recommended" race "quality" connection was defaulted to the lesser, or poor.

After the recent Maintenance(s)sses: my games I host are now defaulting to "Standard" , and my online experience has greatly improved. I think everyone's connection quality makes a huge impact on traction for some odd reason.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Before the recent Maintenance(s): If I hosted games, my "recommended" race "quality" connection was defaulted to the lesser, or poor.

After the recent Maintenance(s)sses: my games I host are now defaulting to "Standard" , and my online experience has greatly improved. I think everyone's connection quality makes a huge impact on traction for some odd reason.

I do think there are multiple issues. We ran a race with a full room once and everyone's lap time was off between qualifying and racing. So yes, I think there can be latency issues on top of the standard traction issues.

Basically, PD spent entirely too much time focusing on silly things like cockpits and not enough on a consistent physics model.

 

[CSLACR]

It has always been my observation, and the observation of anyone whose mentioned it in the leagues that I've been in, that the difference is always there, even if you are in a lobby by yourself.

Not much of a connection problem there.

And in one of the leagues I'm in, there are guys who practice in practice mode one-make races with tire wear on and find it the same as a lobby. IDK, it's different for me, just offering a possible reason.

 

[Lambob]

I do think there are multiple issues. We ran a race with a full room once and everyone's lap time was off between qualifying and racing. So yes, I think there can be latency issues on top of the standard traction issues.

Basically, PD spent entirely too much time focusing on silly things like cockpits and not enough on a consistent physics model.

The only thing I am absolutely afraid of doing, is now riding the carousel on the Nür, it is totally unforgiving online, made of ice. Both of them.

 

[Smuttysy]

Smuttsy, thanks for sharing your testing. Yeah, there's huge differences in the handling, it'd be great to work out the cause(s).

I think there may be a different "gravity" or weight setting in online compared with offline. I say this as it's most notable on so-called jump tracks. The cars come out of the air faster and flatter than they ever do offline. On one of mine it'll damn near flip most cars over backwards if they have any aero on the rear, even on the lowest possible "5" setting. Online it's completely gone. This could be a contributing factor due to increased weight movement of the car.

Just a theory,,,

 

[TankAss95]

I've found that FWD cars favour online physics better than offline. The cars just seem to rotate better in the corners online. I always get better lap times. It's either the physics or my crappy tuning.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I think there may be a different "gravity" or weight setting in online compared with offline. I say this as it's most notable on so-called jump tracks. The cars come out of the air faster and flatter than they ever do offline. On one of mine it'll damn near flip most cars over backwards if they have any aero on the rear, even on the lowest possible "5" setting. Online it's completely gone. This could be a contributing factor due to increased weight movement of the car.

Just a theory,,,

A very interesting one.

I've found that FWD cars favour online physics better than offline. The cars just seem to rotate better in the corners online. I always get better lap times. It's either the physics or my crappy tuning.

That makes sense. If the cars have less grip online, then cars that have problems rotating (with bad understeer) might do better online. By the same regard, those that have a tendency to over-rotate (and oversteer) should be harder to control online.

If you have a tune offline to fight the understeer, it may be too much online.

 

[TankAss95]

That makes sense. If the cars have less grip online, then cars that have problems rotating (with bad understeer) might do better online. By the same regard, those that have a tendency to over-rotate (and oversteer) should be harder to control online.

If you have a tune offline to fight the understeer, it may be too much online.

I know I'm going off topic here, but in real life FWD cars sometimes have better laptimes when it's raining (the track is damp). Im not sure if this applies to GT or not.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I know I'm going off topic here, but in real life FWD cars sometimes have better laptimes when it's raining (the track is damp). Im not sure if this applies to GT or not.

No, that really isn't too far off topic, and it does apply in GT. I used that to my advantage in last season's Lemon's rain race.

The advantage comes from two places: the biggest is the engine's weight (and the transmission/gearbox) over the drive wheels. This gives them better traction, not only for acceleration, but for cornering. The second advantage is in that the drive wheels are dragging the car, not pushing it. The tail is more likely to follow. The nose may slip to the side and require more correction.

This is still evident in online and offline. It would be a good experiment to see by how much wet traction is affected online.

 

[RSKS240]

Yeah offline theres way more grip. Online its like driving a boat on ice rocking back and fourth. I find it so annoying how offline practice mode timer starts right away. But online during practice you have to do a full lap to start the timer. Thats so freaken stupid when your at tracks like 24hour nurb and in a 200hp car and have to do a full lap to start your timed lap. It's just show how inexperience Polyphony is with online racing since GT5 is their first title to have online features. Didnt they have any common sense how long it will take to do a lap just to start your timed lap. Time starts right away offline in practice mode shouldnt be hard to implement the same start in practice online

 

[nomis3613]

^ I spose it's cos they didn't want cars suddenly spawning before the last corner in online mode. But, yeah, it's really annoying at the longer tracks.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

In online mode, you are entering a track with, potentially, other cars. To avoid spawning in the way (like one does on courses without pit lanes such as London and the TGTT), cars spawn in their pit stalls.

Pit exit is always after the start/finish line: a necessary evil.

p.s. Thwarted by pages again.

 

[iamjajo]

Yeah offline theres way more grip. Online its like driving a boat on ice rocking back and fourth. I find it so annoying how offline practice mode timer starts right away. But online during practice you have to do a full lap to start the timer. Thats so freaken stupid when your at tracks like 24hour nurb and in a 200hp car and have to do a full lap to start your timed lap. It's just show how inexperience Polyphony is with online racing since GT5 is their first title to have online features. Didnt they have any common sense how long it will take to do a lap just to start your timed lap. Time starts right away offline in practice mode shouldnt be hard to implement the same start in practice online

I just start a 1 lap race to get timing when I'm tuning or practicing. It doesn't give me time to warm tires or run across the start line at speed, but it does save time and my timed laps do start at the same point for comparisons.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I just start a 1 lap race to get timing when I'm tuning or practicing. It doesn't give me time to warm tires or run across the start line at speed, but it does save time and my timed laps do start at the same point for comparisons.

👍👍

 

[nomis3613]

Hi Folks,
Since we've had many updates since my last tests (see OP), here is some updated testing of rear camber vs traction for FR. Testing was done with a Ferrari F40, all results are repeatable to the millisecond.

First up, sports soft:

And now for the racing soft:

What I find most interesting is that the best traction now occurs at zero camber. This has definitely changed in one of the updates, best traction for every car I tested used to occur at camber higher than zero (see post #1 for an example).

Cheers,
Simon