TRAFFIC STOP: Shooting of minivan filled with kids.

[a6m5]

I'm sorry to do this...... I know we have way too many police shooting threads, but I was shocked when I didn't see a thread created for this one. Some of you already know that I generally side with the police in most shootings.



As soon as I saw the video, immediately, I labeled the mom guilty. Guilty of overreacting to a speeding ticket. As far as I'm concerned, she is solely responsible for turning this traffic stop into a police chase........ but police shooting? While I would go as far as saying that she is the one who opened the door, creating the cause for the police to, in my opinion, panic, police was just about as foolish in opening fire at minivan with many young children on-board.

This could have ended up really bad.

 

[Imari]

From just watching that video, there doesn't appear to be any need to shoot. So they run off again. It's a mom with a van full of kids. They're hardly going to escape. License plate is recorded, follow them at a safe distance until she stops again or runs out of gas.

The only real danger is the kid coming out and attacking the officer. If I was one cop there by myself, I could see there being reasonable physical danger and potential for some response. But with three cops? Nah. Overreaction. I'm not even entirely sure what the cop expected those shots to accomplish.

Also, what's with the responding cops not parking in front of the van? Would seem to solve the whole problem of her doing the dash, unless I'm missing something.

Overall, this looks like a mishandling of the situation by the police. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's tough to handle something like this, but I doubt it's rare if you're a traffic cop. You've gotta be better at knowing when to step back.

 

[David]

Cops shouldn't be discharging weapons over a speeding ticket, and I think that officer will have a hard time justifying that. Her behavior and the behavior of her stupid kid there did nothing to make a bad situation better. She's pretty lucky the officer was as nice as he was on the second stop. I'd think in most places you're getting pulled out that window without being asked at that point.

Edit: Also, I've seen a lot of people question why the second or third car didn't pull up in front of the van. I'm not sure what police are officially trained to do there, but any time I've seen multiple police cars on a traffic stop on the side of the road I've pretty much never seen one in front of the suspect's car. I would guess it's an officer safety thing and an awareness thing so that you don't start out with your back to a potential threat.

The better question is why the first officer didn't have the woman hand over the keys when he stopped her the second time and got her out of the car. Hindsight, 20/20, you know the deal though.

 

[a6m5]

Good point. I'm sure screaming(maybe crying) kids distracted the officer, too.

I can't stress enough how dumb I think that woman is. If I was the old kid in that van, I'd have smacked her myself, get her to snap out of it. Mom, you wanna do what with us riding in the car?

Like Imari suggested, this wasn't remotely routine for the officers, but when firing at a vehicle, you better have damn good reason to. Now, firing at minivan full of kids, I think that's just nuts.

 

[Tornado]

I've never even thought deadly force was justified when applied to end actual police chases, as frequently as it tends to be applied. To use it in this situation, where no one was actually in any immediate danger, is just ridiculous.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I think that the main trouble here is the fact that New Mexico, in a bit of irrelevancy here, is now known as the fake drug bust state, and this woman knew that.

In case you don't know, the state of New Mexico is now facing a lawsuit over the fact that cops, with a "expired" drug dog, pulled over two men and one woman on suspicion of carrying drugs. They took the first man to a local hospital who wouldn't perform procedures on the man, so they took him to a second hospital who would. They subjected him to, get this, a X-ray, two anal cavity searches by doctors, three enemas, a second X-ray, and finally, a colonoscopy. The second man underwent the same thing, at the same hospital.

 

[Zenith]

I think that it's important that when stuff like this happens the offending officer(s) face severe punishment. Law enforcement in the context of human rights is very delicate. We're giving a group of people special privilege over other people. Allowing situations where this group of people is needlessly and recklessly endangering the lives of citizens is unacceptable.

Also that mother is a moron.

 

[Imari]

I think that the main trouble here is the fact that New Mexico, in a bit of irrelevancy here, is now known as the fake drug bust state, and this woman knew that.

In case you don't know, the state of New Mexico is now facing a lawsuit over the fact that cops, with a "expired" drug dog, pulled over two men and one woman on suspicion of carrying drugs. They took the first man to a local hospital who wouldn't perform procedures on the man, so they took him to a second hospital who would. They subjected him to, get this, a X-ray, two anal cavity searches by doctors, three enemas, a second X-ray, and finally, a colonoscopy. The second man underwent the same thing, at the same hospital.

Which makes sense why she might be scared, but if we think about it rationally she's never going to escape that by doing a runner and getting violent with the police officer. At the point at which the cops pull you over, it's basically out of your hands. You do what they tell you, and if they violate your rights then you make them pay like hell afterwards.

 

[DQuaN]

The cop seems to be aiming low. I wonder if he was trying to shoot out the tyres.

 

[Grayfox]

The cop yells OPEN THE DOOR, OPEN THE DOOR and less than a second he starts smashing it.

Next a cop will ask another kid to put down a toy gun then .4 seconds later shoot them 20 times.

I think that the main trouble here is the fact that New Mexico, in a bit of irrelevancy here, is now known as the fake drug bust state, and this woman knew that.

In case you don't know, the state of New Mexico is now facing a lawsuit over the fact that cops, with a "expired" drug dog, pulled over two men and one woman on suspicion of carrying drugs. They took the first man to a local hospital who wouldn't perform procedures on the man, so they took him to a second hospital who would. They subjected him to, get this, a X-ray, two anal cavity searches by doctors, three enemas, a second X-ray, and finally, a colonoscopy. The second man underwent the same thing, at the same hospital.

Heard about this.

They got a warrant based on how he was standing(how a judge signed off on it is beyond me) they took him to a hospital who didn't do it as it invaded his rights, so they took him to another one who did.

Issue was the warrant had not only expired but it was not for that county so it was an illegal one.

One thing that should be done is.
If a cop does an illegal thing the money that he has to pay for compensation should come out of his pension.

Losing your 401K will make many cops think twice.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I can understand the kid defending his mom and siblings and really if the officer tried to be more approachable instead of acting like he was on the scene of training day, the kid probably wouldn't have done anything. The mom is at fault as well, why drive away from a cop at all? Once he is done then leave, but police are usually easy to provoke and have a proverbial chip on their shoulder. I feel the mother placed her young teenage son and kids in a situation where they were scared and felt threaten and the officer only saw using force as a way to defuse it.

Maybe if more traffic cops acted like this, then problems might not arise.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57518127/no-complaints-about-this-traffic-cop/

 

[David]

The cop yells OPEN THE DOOR, OPEN THE DOOR and less than a second he starts smashing it.

Next a cop will ask another kid to put down a toy gun then .4 seconds later shoot them 20 times.

After the teen got out, laid hands on the officer and got in a shoving match in the middle of the roadway and then locked himself back in the car I don't really care how quickly they smashed the windows. You put a solo officer in an unsafe position on the side of the road like that, then don't be surprised when things escalate. The cop didn't do anything to instigate it at that point, other than trying to write a speeding ticket.

People say things like the police are easy to provoke and things like that, but I think the more accurate idea is that they are only human. It can be a scary thing to walk up to a car full of people by yourself on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. You never know what you are really walking into. Are there hotheads out there? Sure. For the most part though officers just want to write the ticket and have everyone drive away safely.

Those other recent abuses in NM are largely irrelevant to this case, especially since the woman did actually have drugs and paraphernilia in the car. She could have just stayed put, taken a ticket, and been on her way, unless it turns out there were warrants out for her or something she knew would come up when he went back to the car.

 

[Dennisch]

Silly woman and that kid. Shooting the tires is a bit overreacting but then again, she puts other peoples life's in danger with the pursuit that follows.

 

[Danoff]

Firing at the minivan was an inappropriate use of force, and that officer should be prosecuted. I don't know whether he would be found guilty - he has an argument, that he was using his gun to prevent a chase that could cost lives. But he was also shooting toward innocent people without knowledge that he was saving any lives. It seems like firing the gun probably only increased the speed of the chase that followed. I don't think the officer would be charged with attempted murder, but I can see a negligence charge. If you want to stop the vehicle from moving after you have two squad cars, roll a spike strip out. Perhaps that should be one of the first things a cop does after pulling someone over - especially if they've already bolted once*.

Everything else is fine, I was wishing the officers would use the tazer. I think at least two people in that video needed to be tazed.

In general, the police needed to be much more patient. If she gets back in the car, don't try to force her out, get backup and follow her. They have overwhelming force and numbers, there is no need to go reaching into a car, escalating the situation, scaring everyone, and risking himself. Just be patient, get backup, you'll get them eventually.

*Actually, here's what they should do. Unscrew the tire pressure cap on one of the rear tires and screw on a cap designed to let all of the air out. Should take about 10 seconds to do. You know you're gonna impound the car at that point anyway.

 

[a6m5]

Maybe if more traffic cops acted like this, then problems might not arise.

If I were a cop, I'd be the same way. Nobody's perfect, so don't treat others like your are. Not 25,000 & zero or anything, but you know.

The cop seems to be aiming low. I wonder if he was trying to shoot out the tyres.

I sure hope so, but as someone who shoot occasionally, I think the risk of injuring one of the children is so high in that situation, I don't care what he actually aimed for.

Those other recent abuses in NM are largely irrelevant to this case, especially since the woman did actually have drugs and paraphernilia in the car. She could have just stayed put, taken a ticket, and been on her way, unless it turns out there were warrants out for her or something she knew would come up when he went back to the car.

This "mom" had drugs in the car? Which of course should not surprise anyone. She should be either mentally ill, or on drugs to take her kids on a ride-along on a high speed police chase.

Great point on the police officers being human, by the way. So true. 👍

 

[David]

This "mom" had drugs in the car?

Yep, it was mentioned in the article I originally read about the incident a few days ago. I believe it's also in the description for the video.

 

[McLaren]

From just watching that video, there doesn't appear to be any need to shoot. So they run off again. It's a mom with a van full of kids. They're hardly going to escape. License plate is recorded, follow them at a safe distance until she stops again or runs out of gas.

The only real danger is the kid coming out and attacking the officer. If I was one cop there by myself, I could see there being reasonable physical danger and potential for some response. But with three cops? Nah. Overreaction. I'm not even entirely sure what the cop expected those shots to accomplish.

Watch again. The cop was by himself when he was rushed.

Cops shouldn't be discharging weapons over a speeding ticket, and I think that officer will have a hard time justifying that. Her behavior and the behavior of her stupid kid there did nothing to make a bad situation better. She's pretty lucky the officer was as nice as he was on the second stop. I'd think in most places you're getting pulled out that window without being asked at that point.

It was not over a speeding ticket by that point. It was over evading arrest. Her son attacking the officer doesn't help her case as now he could be seen as an additional threat. He's lucky as jumping an officer is a quick way for one to find cause to discharge his weapon.

The better question is why the first officer didn't have the woman hand over the keys when he stopped her the second time and got her out of the car. Hindsight, 20/20, you know the deal though.

This woman ran away from a traffic stop & immediately ran the moment he asked her to turn around. I guarantee if he had asked for her keys in place of asking her to turn around, she'd have run anyway.

I think that the main trouble here is the fact that New Mexico, in a bit of irrelevancy here, is now known as the fake drug bust state, and this woman knew that.

In case you don't know, the state of New Mexico is now facing a lawsuit over the fact that cops, with a "expired" drug dog, pulled over two men and one woman on suspicion of carrying drugs. They took the first man to a local hospital who wouldn't perform procedures on the man, so they took him to a second hospital who would. They subjected him to, get this, a X-ray, two anal cavity searches by doctors, three enemas, a second X-ray, and finally, a colonoscopy. The second man underwent the same thing, at the same hospital.

If she "knew" that, why the hell would she think running would give an officer any less probable cause to actually perform such a search. When people start running, they usually have something to hide.


Unless it's proven the cop the was aiming directly for the tires, the use of a gun was an over-reaction. However, all of this could have been avoided if the woman hadn't run from a routine traffic stop. She is the one who put her children in danger as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Nicksfix]

Stupid, stupid woman for fleeing.

All of this could have been avoided had the woman just listened to authority in the first place. Now look what it got her. Smart, real smart lady.

 

[a6m5]

She's no lady!

Yep, it was mentioned in the article I originally read about the incident a few days ago. I believe it's also in the description for the video.

What a loser.

 

[Imari]

Watch again. The cop was by himself when he was rushed.

He was, but that's NOT when he fired on the vehicle. He dealt with that situation without firing his weapon.

When the vehicle was fired upon there was at least three officers on the scene. It doesn't even appear to be the officer who was attacked who fired.

When the shots occurred, there was no reasonable threat to three trained officers that required the use of deadly force. There's a scared and stupid lady with a bunch of kids in a minivan.

 

[1241Penguin]

What an excellent role model for her kids!

 

[Nicksfix]

There's a scared and stupid lady without regard of life to a bunch of kids in a minivan.

FTFY

 

[McLaren]

He was, but that's NOT when he fired on the vehicle. He dealt with that situation without firing his weapon.

When the vehicle was fired upon there was at least three officers on the scene. It doesn't even appear to be the officer who was attacked who fired.

When the shots occurred, there was no reasonable threat to three trained officers that required the use of deadly force. There's a scared and stupid lady with a bunch of kids in a minivan.

None of what you just said is relevant. You only said,
"The only real danger is the kid coming out and attacking the officer. If I was one cop there by myself, I could see there being reasonable physical danger and potential for some response. But with three cops? Nah."

You mentioned the kid attacking the officer & nothing more, followed by it not being reasonable physical danger because of 3 cops. The other 2 officers were not around when the kid attacked the lone officer & he's lucky he wasn't shot after doing so.

The shots fired were a result of the lady running, not because the kid attacked an officer.

 

[Danoff]

Stupid, stupid woman for fleeing.

All of this could have been avoided had the woman just listened to authority in the first place. Now look what it got her. Smart, real smart lady.

Yup, stupid to flee. Also a bad idea for the cop to unnecessarily open fire.

 

[Nicksfix]

Also a bad idea for the cop to unnecessarily open fire.

Yep.
At 1:09 into the video - "shooter cop" shows up from behind. As he approaches the mini van, he see's his fellow officer beating out the passenger side window with his billy club. This gives him the impression that this is a potentially volatile situation. Which it turns out to be. But ... upon arrival, is this 3rd cop even aware of the fact that there are kids in this mini van ? This we do not know for sure. The windows are tinted dark, you really cannot see the kids. If the 3rd officer had known for a fact that there were indeed kids inside of this mini van, would he have really pulled his gun and fired ? Kind of makes you wonder. Does this officer have no quarter for his actions, even though he may have known kids were inside of the vehicle ?

Honestly, I do not think "shooter cop" was fully informed of the situation, hence why he pulled and fired without proper assessment / and or knowing some facts before doing so.

Hmmmm, maybe I'm off base on this, but it's something to ponder.

 

[Zenith]

The cop yells OPEN THE DOOR, OPEN THE DOOR and less than a second he starts smashing it.

Next a cop will ask another kid to put down a toy gun then .4 seconds later shoot them 20 times.

So I hear the Big Book of Fallacies is going on sale this Christmas.

 

[Villain]

What the hell what the idiot shooting at? The tires? C'mon man. Take that man's badge away, pronto.

The lady deserves a litany of charges, but wow that's just a lack of brainpower from a lot of people. Those poor kids have her as a role model? Wow. Just wow.

 

[terminator363]

Mom is guilty and shooting was unnecessary. End of case.

 

[Danoff]

Yep.
At 1:09 into the video - "shooter cop" shows up from behind. As he approaches the mini van, he see's his fellow officer beating out the passenger side window with his billy club. This gives him the impression that this is a potentially volatile situation. Which it turns out to be. But ... upon arrival, is this 3rd cop even aware of the fact that there are kids in this mini van ? This we do not know for sure. The windows are tinted dark, you really cannot see the kids. If the 3rd officer had known for a fact that there were indeed kids inside of this mini van, would he have really pulled his gun and fired ? Kind of makes you wonder. Does this officer have no quarter for his actions, even though he may have known kids were inside of the vehicle ?

Honestly, I do not think "shooter cop" was fully informed of the situation, hence why he pulled and fired without proper assessment / and or knowing some facts before doing so.

Hmmmm, maybe I'm off base on this, but it's something to ponder.

If he wasn't fully informed of the situation, that's all the more reason not to open fire. The only way I see opening fire in that situation is if the minivan was in reverse coming at him - and even then I'd prefer he just get out of the way. That cops badge needs to be taken, AND he should be prosecuted for some lesser crime than attempted murder. Assault with a deadly weapon is not out of the question.

I'd really like to have seen the tazer used when the mom gets back in the car the second time. If that had happened she'd be arrested on the spot, no chase, no shots fired, no problem.

 

[Callum B]

The woman is a moron for making such a deal out of a speeding ticket and endangering her children.
The officer who shot is a moron for using unnecessary force.
Everyone's a moron!