Tuner Garages

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The Bellet needs no stiffening up, and indeed for a car of its age and weight has fairly stiff suspension already. The undertseer comments completely baffle me as I still get major power oversteer, and I fixed the brake balance which to me seemed to be lacking turn-in big time. The car is great which is why I don't understand the comments coming in.
 
it could simply be because of controllers.. if one uses DFP, one G25 and one DS2, you get three slightly different reviews..
 
DFP here. Could be the difference, as I know N4HS uses the DS2. When transistioning from hard throttle to full-off, the car seems to push wide, and it's not a sensation I like. It will be neutral-to-very-mild-understeer (controlling the throttle to prevent power-over) on throttle, then the instant I let off I get understeer. Stock setup was much worse about it.

And I think Grey's car might get over an 80... It's niiice.
 
Just give it a little more throttle, a little powerslide in this car isn't a bad thing, but a big one and you get snap back, another thing you could mark me down on :scared: Next setup will incorporate a positive rear toe. Which was another thing I was curious about. In your review RJ you said I had toe in at the front, but a positive front toe value means negative toe and toe-out. Not that I'm worried, just thought I'd clear that up.
 
That's what I used to think too, N4HS... But it's incorrect. A negative value IS toe out. And when I say toe out, I mean that the front edge of the tire is pointing outward, not the trailing edge. Like this: \ /. Not / \.

I know, because toe out in the rear invariably creates oversteer, and toe in on the rear is good for stability, and having played with both on almost all of my tunes, I know that a negative value is indeed toe-out.

EDIT: Judging completed.

EDIT X2: Pics added.

EDIT X3: My Renaults have been updated.
 
No dig intended, but I'm surprised you ran quicker in the 2000GT than the Europa! With both Grey's Europa and the one I was working on, I was able to run in high 1'58xxx/low1'59xxx. It took an act of god just to get the 2000GT into the 2'00 flat range. The Europa given its natural characterstics though would be a little harder to drive if hopping into both for the first time, though.
 
I was surprised as well! And the stock setting + diff and gearing 'Cuda was the biggest surprise of all!

Also, I was at Twin Ring Motegi Road Course (the full version), not Grand Valley.

I might re-do the times on all the cars.

Oddly, however, I found the Europa easy to drive... Must be the Renaults...
 
Currently redoing the times, two cars to go.

Mustang, your car needs gearing work. It needs to be closer gear-to-gear but longer overall. Strangely, the gearing seemed to help the understeer slightly, but it was still present, and the setup was modified, so no difference in points.


EDIT: Times redone.
 
Rotary Junkie
That's what I used to think too, N4HS... But it's incorrect. A negative value IS toe out. And when I say toe out, I mean that the front edge of the tire is pointing outward, not the trailing edge. Like this: \ /. Not / \.

I know, because toe out in the rear invariably creates oversteer, and toe in on the rear is good for stability, and having played with both on almost all of my tunes, I know that a negative value is indeed toe-out.

EDIT: Judging completed.

EDIT X2: Pics added.

EDIT X3: My Renaults have been updated.
Click to expand...

Negative value at the rear is toe out yeah, but at the front positive value is toe out.
 
According to the text scroll at the bottom of the screen when you highlight the "toe" field in the suspension settings menu, front toe-out does indeed increase stability and reduce steering response.

Easy enough to test. Take an extremely unstable car like the Stratos. Give it a maxed-out negative front toe value. It'll be far more stable under almost all conditions, but it won't turn in nearly as abruptly. According to the game, this is toe-out.

<edit> That thread's been there for quite a while and contains a LOT of conflicting claims.
 
And that's why I hold solid in what I've seen and felt.

Interestingly, however, the game has one bit wrong: Toe-out sharpens the very initial turn-in by turning the inside tire into the corner quicker, thereby shifting the weight onto the outside. The only real problem with that is when you straighten out the steering almost all the way in the middle of a corner, wait a moment, then turn back in, it will unsettle the nose a little.
 
Rotary Junkie
And that's why I hold solid in what I've seen and felt.

Interestingly, however, the game has one bit wrong: Toe-out sharpens the very initial turn-in by turning the inside tire into the corner quicker, thereby shifting the weight onto the outside. The only real problem with that is when you straighten out the steering almost all the way in the middle of a corner, wait a moment, then turn back in, it will unsettle the nose a little.
Click to expand...

Do you mean the game fails to model this? I've never noticed it so I'm guessing so, but then I don't often tinker with front toe-out.

I've never driven a toe-adjusted car IRL, but it seems like, with front toe out, any fractional momentary gain at the instant of turn in would be undone in spectacular fashion just thousandths of a second later when the weight shifts to the outside, settling on a tire aimed wide of the apex.
 
With toe-in more extreme than anyone would ever run, yes. But by the time the weight has shifted off the inside, the outside is pointed towards the apex as well.

The game does not fail to model what I was talking about, it just doesn't cover it in the scroller.

And, an interesting thing I found with my Renaults: Toe-out actually stabilizes the rear end while allowing rotation. With neutral toe or toe-in, the tail will still want to slide, and once it overwhelms the rear tires... Bye-bye birdie. Toe out allows the fat arse of an MR/RR to get a little bit of a slip angle going without exceeding the grip limits of the rear tires.

By the way, would you mind testing my Renaults (one, the other, or both) and telling me how they stand?
 
Just 9 hours to go! I've got a busy night so I'll probably do the same thing I did with Phase 1 - go ahead and post the List of Entries for Phase 2 in just a bit, but leave it open to any further entries or edits until midnight. Anything edited or entered after I post the list will be edited in tomorrow, when I release the tallies for the results of Phase 1!
 
I haven't had a chance to test its updated settings yet I'm afriad, things have been pretty crazy, sorry man. I'm trying to get all the entries and judging posts collected right now, which is taking a while. I'll try to get to it tomorrow if I can, but I can't promise anything at this point since what little time I've got tomorrow will be devoted to tallying the scores and editing in any last minute entries or judging.
 
Vintage Tuner Cup Judging, Phase 2
1973-1980; 1981-1988; Classic Club Racers

On to Phase 2, folks!

Here are the ground rules for judging. Same song as Phase 1, but give 'em a quick scan again.

-You must test ALL the cars in the division you are judging.

-You may test the cars as extensively as you like on as many tracks as you like, but you must have one 'control' track, which you know extremely well. For that track, run AT LEAST two clean laps, and submit your fastest lap time for each car on that track. (A 'clean' lap is one where at least two wheels remain on the track or curbing for the entire lap - no complete runoffs or spin-outs) Be sure that the control track you pick is a well-balanced track. Picking something like Citta d'Aria in a division that includes RUFs is just as unfair as picking a track like High Speed Ring in a division that includes Abarths.

-Make sure you have built each car exactly as its designer specifies - compare power and weight to the designer's post to ensure accuracy.

-Create a post detailing the results, grading each car on a scale of 100 available points. The criteria you are to use are:
(a) overall 'feel' of the car - how well it handles considering its chassis
(b) improvement over default settings - this is VERY important, as it determines how much the tuner has improved the car, which is the goal of the competition. We suggest you drive the car first with all the equipment specified by its builder, but with no settings applied. This should reveal the amount of skill and effort the tuner has employed. Assume that if the builder includes a wing, that the default setting is 30/30, not 0/0. Keep in mind as you judge that not all classic cars can take wings. Also, assume that default settings for driving aids are 0,0,0. They aren't looked too highly upon as tuning tools.

Laptimes are not to be taken into consideration except in cases where cars feel nearly identical and you need a tiebreaker, or in cases where two tuners have entered the same car. In that case, only consider laptimes in relation to what parts the tuner has applied to each car.

The deadline for judging is Wednesday, March 12, at 11:59 PM U.S. Eastern Time!

All that said, it's time to get to it! Here are the entries, broken down by division, in order of entry (I think). If I've missed a car, please let me know! The entries were extremely spread out, so I may have overlooked something.

1973-1980

Leonidae's Triumph Spitfire '74
ND 4 Holden Spd's Triumph Spitfire '74
Craftylandshark's Alpine A110 '73
Greycap's Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 '73
VTiRoj's Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79
Rotary Junkie's Renault 5 Turbo S-Maxi '80

1981-1988

dimplz' RUF BTR '86
ND 4 Holden Spd's Buick GNX '87
Greycap's Audi Quattro '82
VTiRoj's Toyota Supra 3.0 Turbo A '88
Leonidae's Toyota Sprinter Trueno AE86 '83
GT40MkII's Chevrolet Camaro Iroc-Z Concept '88
setsunakute's Honda Civic 1500 3-door '83
mafia_boy's Toyota Celica GT-Four '86
RotaryJunkie's Toyota Celica GT-Four '86

Classic Club Racers

ND 4 Holden Spd's Chevrolet Corvette L46 350 '69
Greycap's Lancia Stratos '73
wrcsti's BMW 2002 Turbo '73
Tulok's Nissan Skyline HT 2000GT '70
Snyp's Jensen Interceptor MkIII '74
RotaryJunkie's Renault 5 Turbo R-Maxi '80
 
Rrr...

That's freaking cruel, but funny.

Oh, and my Renaults are pretty much the weakest in terms of power-to-weight in their respective classes.
 
Your Autobianchi is also the only car in its class with a power to weight worse than my Renault. I think. So it's the only car that doesn't worry me.


I might, to get things started, judge 1981-88 including my car, but not to be counted, just to give a general idea to people how well their cars are done up.
 
Rotary Junkie
Your Autobianchi is also the only car in its class with a power to weight worse than my Renault. I think. So it's the only car that doesn't worry me.
Click to expand...

Figures, even though I have a pretty damn light car, your making nearly triple my bhp. :nervous:

Actually my Supra's looking bad in power to weight too, compared to the other cars in its division. Blast. :ouch:
 
I guess I'll do the same thing I did in phase 1: judge if no one else does. Probably 73-80 or 81-88, since I don't much like the use of high-grip tyres. I'm not sure which I want to judge, though. 73+ will have less cars, and thus be easier, but I just like cars from the 80's (except Camaros).
 

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