Turbo chargers?

How many PSI do u normally get after installing a turbo without a boost controller? And how do get higher PSI? I saw this 99 Civic Si that had 22PSI or something like that. With all the other mods it had 298HP. I plan on getting a 99 Civic Si. So if anyone can help me in this I'd really appreciate it. Thanks
 
Originally posted by PoeticSoul952
How many PSI do u normally get after installing a turbo without a boost controller? And how do get higher PSI? I saw this 99 Civic Si that had 22PSI or something like that. With all the other mods it had 298HP. I plan on getting a 99 Civic Si. So if anyone can help me in this I'd really appreciate it. Thanks

0psi. Honestly, I would never install a turbo without some type of boost control and fuel management. Think about it: you're installing a small but significant component on a car for which it was not originally intended. The last thing you want to do is risk overboosting by accidentally over-revving.
 
Originally posted by Hooligan


0psi. Honestly, I would never install a turbo without some type of boost control and fuel management. Think about it: you're installing a small but significant component on a car for which it was not originally intended. The last thing you want to do is risk overboosting by accidentally over-revving.


Good point. What does overboosting do to the engine? Oh and I had planned to buy one anyway but good looking out.
 
I'm not really the turbo man. If you overboost it will mess the engine up.

If you want to turbo a car a Civic isn't the right car.
 
Originally posted by streetracer780
I'm not really the turbo man. If you overboost it will mess the engine up.

If you want to turbo a car a Civic isn't the right car.


Why do you say that? I know plenty of Civic's that are turbo charged.
 
I had a Civic. They aren't the best car to put that kinda money into.
 
Yeah but thats the only car besides my aunts 89 accord that my dad will be willing to let me drive. I can put my own money into the civic becuase it'll be mine.
 
Originally posted by PoeticSoul952
Good point. What does overboosting do to the engine? Oh and I had planned to buy one anyway but good looking out.

Overboosting creates far too much pressure than the engine, intake manifold, and probably exhaust manifold can handle. More importantly, it can let the turbo spin beyond the maximum limit, causing major stress on the fins of the turbo. Should that happen too often, the impeller (intake turbine) could shatter, sending hot, sharp metal into the engine. I don't need to explain how bad that is. ;)

Are you doing this yourself? There are a number of kits for Hondas of all types, but some kits are better than others, and not even name brand components guarantees quality toys (although I'd be wary of something you've never heard of). Either way, turbocharging (and supercharging) is the closest thing to black magic in the automotive world. Sizing, fuel timing, boost management...I know any work I'm doing will not be done by my own hands.

And as long as the post is this long, I'll make it longer. :) High boost means high pressure. Even if the turbo is within its limits, the rest of the engine may not be. If you're talking about using a D-series engine, much internal work will be needed to keep the connecting rods from collapsing. A B-series (especially the B18C from the Integra Type-R) will do far better, but when the boost gets above 1.0bar (14.7psi), the rigidity of the stock engine may not be enough. Hondas do well naturally aspirated (non-turbo), or with high-reaching VTEC. This is not to say that putting a Garret T66 on a properly prepared B18C5 isn't possible, but be prepared to put a lot of money into reinforcing the engine. Subaru is a good example of not fortifying vital components. After 3000 miles, I broke part of the transmission (the 1st gear synchro). I never raced it, never dropped the clutch...sure, I had some fun on the highway, but it was rather a short time to have something break. Turns out, lots of people had the same problem because Subaru transmissions are weak! :banghead:

And as long as you've read this far: Don't forget the intercooler, lots of additional electronics & wiring, size the turbo to your application (performance desired) and engine size, possible engine internals and transmission (clutch!!) upgrades...talk to a good Honda shop. As for an example how difficult this can be, try this site.
http://www.rapidline.com/calc/turbo/pctsize.htm
You'd need that kind of information if you want you new turbo'd engine to last more than 3000 miles.

Why is this such a big deal? You're adding a turbo to a non-turbo car. Increasing the performance of a VW 1.8T engine can usually be done with bolt-ons because so much is already in place. So: Good Luck! :)

{steps off soapbox}
 
Nice explanation Hooligan! You may be interested to know that in the first paragraph, where you mention the turbo spinning beyond its maximum limit, the blades shatter when they go supersonic, and create sonic shockwaves in the casement! :eek:

My father had an Audi quattro, which he overboosted, and it caused warping in the cylinder head...

Subaru transmissions aren't weak, it's that they're only designed for 300-320bhp!
 
Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Nice explanation Hooligan! You may be interested to know that in the first paragraph, where you mention the turbo spinning beyond its maximum limit, the blades shatter when they go supersonic, and create sonic shockwaves in the casement! :eek:

Well, yes, but supersonic speeds are reached at the outer edges of the turbine, which results in a different rotational speed depending on the size of the turbo. I guess "supersonic" was more specific, though.


Subaru transmissions aren't weak, it's that they're only designed for 300-320bhp!

I think they're pretty weak. The WRC cars have at least strengthened synchros, and even they have problems. Gears have been known to strip, too.
 
Originally posted by streetracer780
I had a Civic. They aren't the best car to put that kinda money into.

Er considering the :honda: Civic is one of the most popular tuning cars :car: about I think it is one of the Best Cars to put money into :smilewink

Surely you know that Streetracer? :confused:
 
My bro's MX-6 GT boosts a max of 8.7 PSI, and Mazda was smart enough to put a throttle shut off on the cars so that if it starts to over boost it can't(my bro's had that problem, there's a beeeeeeep and then you are forced to let off and try again).

And I have been in a 626GT 5 door that was well over boosting(the car was wrecked...the cut off wasn't working so it was free to boost away)and it was a rocket ship, tires would be smoking in the middle of 2nd. It was probably boosting 12-15psi. But that car is dead...they used the parts from it on other 626s and trashed the rest.

Why would you turbo a Civic though? Get a faster car and you wouldn't have to mod it...
 
Originally posted by Hooligan

I think they're pretty weak. The WRC cars have at least strengthened synchros, and even they have problems. Gears have been known to strip, too.

WRC rally cars DO NOT have syncros. They have dog style engagemnet gears, that work with the semi-auto (or full-auto) sequential shifters.

http://www.quaife.co.uk/product/gearbox.htm

The only thing that they offer sychro's in is their roadgoing versions. Syncro's slow down shifting, as they require that the other gear catch and speed up. A dog style gear quickens the process, using straight cut gears and direct engagement. There is the possibilty of adding a sequential action to a roadgoing synchor transmission, but because of the efficiency lost, the only real good thing that they are for is making sure you do not miss a gear.

Another reason that they do not use synchro's in race cars is that they break. If you look at a synchro, vs non synchro, the scynchros look frail and easy to break. They are.
 
Originally posted by PoeticSoul952



Why do you say that? I know plenty of Civic's that are turbo charged.

Yes, but how many people that HAVE them turbo'ed are using the original b16 block? Most have upgraded to an 18, or a H22.

If you turbocharge a block w/ stock compression (we are talking around 9.5:1 here) and not use av gas or full 120-140Oct, racing gas, you are likely to blow up your engine, because it will dentonate like hell (knokcing)
 
well,you got to know that turbos can be very dangerous to engines,a tubo gets hot really hot,and well heats up the air going into your engine,i suggest you buy a intercooler too,the turbo will heat up the air so rapidly without it it the cylinder will actually combust before the sparkplug ignites:eek:
 
Originally posted by DessViperV-10
well,you got to know that turbos can be very dangerous to engines,a tubo gets hot really hot,and well heats up the air going into your engine,i suggest you buy a intercooler too,the turbo will heat up the air so rapidly without it it the cylinder will actually combust before the sparkplug ignites:eek:

Hence detonation/knocking
 
Higher octane gas resists combustion, so it needs to be compressed more before it will combust. If you have a high enough octane gas, and low enough compression, it is possible to have an engine that will not run.
 
Originally posted by Deathhawk
WRC rally cars DO NOT have syncros. They have dog style engagemnet gears, that work with the semi-auto (or full-auto) sequential shifters.

Sometimes, I leave my mind at the door before I sit here at my PC. It helps speed up the flow of bad information.

Well, Subaru WRC cars still have lots of problems with their transmissions...and they're not just Quaife boxes.
 
I know, I gave Quaife as an example, because I remembered their site. It won't be the synchro's though, because there are none. A sequential transmission is just a regular transmission sans synchro's (to oversimplify) which has a drum type shift to it.
 
To actually address the questions that you asked..:

How many PSI do u normally get after installing a turbo without a boost controller?
Depends on the size of the turbo. IF you use a large turbo, it will spool up faster. With a good turbo you should be able to push 30LBS of boost easily


And how do get higher PSI?
As mentioned above, a larger turbo. Or replacing the stock (if it was a turbo in the first place) blow off valve with an aftermarket one.

I saw this 99 Civic Si that had 22PSI or something like that. With all the other mods it had 298HP. I plan on getting a 99 Civic Si. So if anyone can help me in this I'd really appreciate it. Thanks

To upgrade a civic to this, you would need to completely rebuild the engine's bottom and top end. You would need to lower the compression to around 8.5:1, that should give you enough of a compression drop to allow use of around 22LBS of boost. This is concieveable with a civic, but you may want to go with something different. Normally, unless you do a good job of the engine (read: $$$) it will not live long under a boosted environment. Other mods include higher flowing injectors, and a reprogramming of the onboard computer.

Just ask if you need more information
 
Originally posted by Deathhawk
To actually address the questions that you asked..:


Depends on the size of the turbo. IF you use a large turbo, it will spool up faster. With a good turbo you should be able to push 30LBS of boost easily



As mentioned above, a larger turbo. Or replacing the stock (if it was a turbo in the first place) blow off valve with an aftermarket one.



To upgrade a civic to this, you would need to completely rebuild the engine's bottom and top end. You would need to lower the compression to around 8.5:1, that should give you enough of a compression drop to allow use of around 22LBS of boost. This is concieveable with a civic, but you may want to go with something different. Normally, unless you do a good job of the engine (read: $$$) it will not live long under a boosted environment. Other mods include higher flowing injectors, and a reprogramming of the onboard computer.

Just ask if you need more information


Thanks for the help. I think your the only person who accually answered my question. How can i get the same power without a turbo?
 
well,you can but many things,flowmaster exhaust,aluminum heads,k&n air-filter,new spark plugs,intake,and well you can get a eldbrock carberator for 200 USD
 
Originally posted by DessViperV-10
well,you can but many things,flowmaster exhaust,aluminum heads,k&n air-filter,new spark plugs,intake,and well you can get a eldbrock carberator for 200 USD

Um... don't listen to the above at all....

Ok, to make 250odd HP with a stock motor, you are going to need to do some things.

1st, reduce your rotating mass of the engine. so, in other words, forged alluminium rods, pistons ect. Pistons that are possibly
around 11:1-12:1.

You will need the stock Alluminium head to be ported and polished at least, possibly put on a flow bench to achieve a better flow characteristics. You will need an upgraded set of cams, possibly with more lift and duration, again, depending on budget, larger valves.

Again, as with the turbo, you will need upgraded injectors, and possibly a chip UPGRADE (not reprogram)

And air filter will possibly help, but if you want to acctually improve preformance, a relocation of the airbox/intake will be nessesary. There are many kits that will help this.

Actually, contrary to popular opinions, spark plugs do NOT need to be changed over. Most import's use NKG plugs, which according to lots of friends with cars that have experimented, are just as good as the GOLD serise, which I seem to recall running around 10 a plug.

Ignition systems can be upgraded, and will probably will need to be to make this kind of power.

Another consideration is bore & stroking your motor to allow for a larger displacement. This is really a idiotic thing to do unless you are at the top displacement honda offers. So if you go this route, look into swapping a b18, or a b20/b18head combo in, it will save you headaches, and give you another camshaft.

Also depending, you can increase the quality of lifters and rockerarms to allow for less resistance, meaning more horsepower. Changes to the valve springs can be made to allow for more revs, which in turn with more mods, will allow more horsepower.

Unfortunately, unlike american motors (read: cam in block v8's) there are no kits with a specific output that is advertised. With a chev V8, I can order from summit racing, a kit that will replace most of my components, and give me around 400HP out of the box. It includes new everything. The price of components for a I4 right now would scare people off this route, but if you talked to some local shops they may be able to give you some component lists, and mabye even give a quote.

Again because of the complexity of the dohc I4 engine, no one has really put out a serious non-race head setup for these engines either.

Ok in conclusion:

You are obviously debating the use of a NA system versus a turbo system are you not?

Here are some things:
1. A turbo system will allow you more power (done right) for less buck.
2. A turbo system however has drawbacks, allways using 92 octane gas, turbo lag, difficult street use, ect.
3. Notice how I have not mentioned nitrous? Well there is a good reason. Nitrous is not a fix all power added, it will require as much work as the others to get an engine that will last well on it.
3a.Nitrous also is illegal in some states on the road (yea not canada!)
3b.Nitrous is dangerous. It MAY explode in an accident. This has about the same change of happening as a propane explosion, so it is not really a factor.

It is really up to you and your budget. If you have some savvy, and experience (well not even much experience) bolting up a junkyard turbo is not that big of a feat. The ricers tend to think that is beneath them, where the krouts love the approach.

Of course both of these system will cost about 4000K.

You of course could do some minor things, and live with 180HP though... I have no clue what the B16 motor starts out as...
 
Wow. My head is spinning. Thanks for all the info. Right now I'm only 15 and planning to get a job soon, so I can start saving for the parts I want to buy. By the time I car I am estimating that I will have around $5,000. With that budget, would you go turbo or naturally aspirated? And also what is included in the internals?
 
Originally posted by PoeticSoul952
Wow. My head is spinning.

Told you it was voodoo. ;)

With that budget, would you go turbo or naturally aspirated?

It depends (oh, you knew that answer was coming!). Best results come from the least invasive procedure. Okay, so that's not a quote coming from the auto industry, but I think it applies. It all depends on what your starting point is, and that should be determined by what kind of car you want. Ask yourself:

- What kind of drive are you looking for? Muscle car, manic street machine, daily driver, etc..
- What do you want in terms of performance? Lots of grunt, a high-rev screamer....
- What car do you actually want to own?

It all comes down to what you want in your driveway. So for $5,000, stick to the engine type you have. If you get an old Mustang, than N/A (high-flow headers, cold-air intake) is probably the way to go. Should an RX-7 fall into your lap, adding a turbo (or modifying the existing turbo) would be highly effective.

And also what is included in the internals?

Do you mean "What's inside the engine?" Lots of stuff. But usually when people say "strengthen the internals", they are referring to:
- crankshaft: the rotating, uneven-looking post that actually outputs engine energy; not necessarily needed, since most are quite strong to begin with; should you double stock output, then replacing this would be a good idea.
- connnecting rods: or 'conrods', which are the "stem" part of the piston; on most economy cars, these are rather thin and prone to snapping
- pistons: the cylindrical "cap" that moves up & down, compressing air & gas within the cylinder
- pins: connnects pistons to conrods; a new, stronger set of pins usually comes with a (stronger) set of pistons
- rings: wraps around the pistong, createing and airtight barrier between the piston and cylinder), and the cylinders themselves
- cylinder lining: the lining around the inside of the cylinder.... Not likely to need strengthening, but low-friction liners are good to reduce unwanted friction in either a high-revving or high-power-output engine. Increased friction == increased heat == long term problems.
There's usually the mention of the "top end" and "bottom end" of an engine. The "bottom end" is described above. The top end consists of the valvetrain (camshafts, cam gears, valves, valve springs...lots of little parts). This is also something worth messing with, but it can easily get complicated. For reference:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

And if that "internals" stuff didn't make any sense, try:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm
and
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
for a basic understanding of the two components you would like to join together. Really, read through both articles. They don't go into high-tech details, but they'll get you up to speed much faster than I can spew out jargon.

Bottom line: for $5,000, you can do a lot, but probably not to the point of needing to work with the interior of the engine (which saves money anyway). By the time you get though new wheels & tires (often recommended, and don't just go for glitz), some minor external under-hood modifications, and some CPU re-programming, you might just be out of $5,000. And a good deal happier.

Let us know what car you get! You'll find as many opinions on what to do with it as there are lines in this post. :)
 
I'm not getting this car for a while, I need to do good in school all this year to get it. But since I want the Civic Si, I'm going to do good for sure. I'm not going to get this car until the summer. I just wanted to get started on to do to my car when I get it. Would I need to strengthen the internals to put a turbo on the Civic?
 
Originally posted by PoeticSoul952
I'm not getting this car for a while, I need to do good in school all this year to get it. But since I want the Civic Si, I'm going to do good for sure. I'm not going to get this car until the summer. I just wanted to get started on to do to my car when I get it. Would I need to strengthen the internals to put a turbo on the Civic?

No, depending on what you want boost wise. If you keep it conservative (under 12PSI) you should be able to keep everything except stock compression. You may run into problems after that.
 

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