TVR to build new "Speed 12"

[Dave A]

Even if the new one is US friendly, 2 mated together and highly tuned might not be. It would certainly be in TVR's interests to make it US friendly though.

 

[YSSMAN]

They could sell it here as a track-only car like Lotus did with the previous-gen Elise and Exige for some time. I would rather have them not, as it would be absolutely insane to be driving around down in Ada and seeing one of those pull out of Vitalie's.

If TVR can do it, do it at a trickle rate here in the US. They aren't a brand-name most folks know about yet, as it is for the most part Gran Turismo and PGR fans that lust after the car more than anything. Of course, movies like "Swordfish" debuted the TVR Speed Six to the American masses, and our American automotive magazines do talk about them quite often (as a matter of fact, C/D had quite a lot of TVR news a month or two ago, and did a story on Slomenski (whatever his name is) when he bought the company).

If they can send over 1500 cars a year, it should be sufice for now. The T350 and Sagaris would probably make up around half of the sales, and I'd say split the other pretty much to the Tuscan coupe and convert, maybe taking a few special orders on Tamoras as well.

Maybe they need to use the Lotus level of sales in the US?

 

[Dave A]

Out of 5000 cars yearly production 1500 is probably all the US will get, maybe 2000 max depending on how well recieved they are. I think Smolenski is hoping to get UK sales to around 1500 a year, the market is here for it, there's just a lot of choice and some people prefer not to take a risk with a TVR because of their reliability issues in the past. Get that image destroyed and TVR are onro a winner, they're cheaper, faster and in most peoples opinions much more exciting to look at than 99% of the competition here in the UK.

 

[harrytuttle]

It would have been more of a waste for them to continue building the car, the car was never going to turn a profit it was purely being built to homologate the race cars, if the race cars suddenly couldn't race, whats the point in building cars that cost more to make than you're going to make back off them. The one thing the car did do regardless, is raise brand awareness. And yes, limited edition holomogation cars are often built at a loss.

In other words, they couldn't afford it, which was exactly what I was saying. If they had the money, they could have done what Porsche did with the Carrera GT, which was another car that had racing intentions but had the rules changed before it could be completed.

He hasn't said that, but that's the logical thing to do. It creates a car with mass appeal and it keeps the TVR enthusiasts happy because the TVR brand doesn't get diluted. He already owns more than one motor company and has enough money to buy more or to set another one up. Also creating a mass production car would mean building or buying a new factory abroad and getting a completely new workforce, since Smolenski has said he doesn't want to lose the one he has then it's logical to say that if he would create a mass production car he would do it abroad but keep the TVR factory open over here. Also as I said, user friendly TVR's have never been the biggest sellers in the past, the Tamora in fact is the lowest selling TVR in production, so how does that match upto what TVR customes want.

Wait, it's okay for you to make logical assumptions about TVR, but not me? Do you work for TVR? Is that what I'm missing?

As for what TVR customers want, up until now they're all European, not American (at least not since the 70's). It remains to be seen how the US reacts to TVR. I've got my opinion on it, and you've got yours. We'll see how this goes down about two years from now.

A TVR is a lot cheaper than a 911 GT3, so yes it will have more appeal in terms of prospective buyers.

TVR is cheaper in England because it's a domestic brand. In the US, both cars will be overseas imports, which drastically changes pricing. The Mustang is a dirt-cheap bargain in the US, but it's considerably more expensive in London, if you can even get one. The increased pricing puts it up against a very different competition lineup than in Texas.

And you need to stop double posting.

Wow. I double posted once and you're on my case? Sooorrrry!

 

[YSSMAN]

Given the "cheap" prices of the cars in the UK even with their outrageous tax systems, the cars wouln't be that much more in the US comparitively speaking. The magic prices would be between $60-80K USD, which seems completely reasonable.

 

[Dave A]

In other words, they couldn't afford it, which was exactly what I was saying. If they had the money, they could have done what Porsche did with the Carrera GT, which was another car that had racing intentions but had the rules changed before it could be completed.

No, just because something isn't profitable it doesn't mean they can't afford it. They wern't going to makea profit even if the race car hadn't been dissalowed at LeMans (in fact they would have spent more), but since the whole purpose for the cars existence had been done away with, there was no reason for TVR to continue making the cars at a loss. Porsche make a profit from the Carrera GT, that's the difference.

Wait, it's okay for you to make logical assumptions about TVR, but not me? Do you work for TVR? Is that what I'm missing?

I never said it was wrong for you to, I'm just dissagreeing with yours. But I can confidently tell you that you are not the most in the know about TVR in this discussion, and no I don't work for TVR but I do talk to people that do, I have also talked to the person that owns the Cerbera Speed 12 a number of times who is has close ties to Dan Greewood.

As for what TVR customers want, up until now they're all European

No they arn't

It remains to be seen how the US reacts to TVR. I've got my opinion on it, and you've got yours. We'll see how this goes down about two years from now.

Yep we'll have to wait and see, but apparently they get good press in your magazines.

TVR is cheaper in England because it's a domestic brand. In the US, both cars will be overseas imports, which drastically changes pricing. The Mustang is a dirt-cheap bargain in the US, but it's considerably more expensive in London, if you can even get one. The increased pricing puts it up against a very different competition lineup than in Texas.

This is true, and it's the biggest hurdle TVR have to overcome when it comes to selling in the US, but as YSSMAN say's they will likely be be under 70k USD putting them below the lieks of a Dodge Viper which most TVR's are pretty comparable to, something like the Sagaris might stretch to 80k USD but considering you guys pay that for the Viper the Sagaris would be at a good price at 80k. But by the time TVR goes to the US they will be using a new model range so we'll have to see.

Wow. I double posted once and you're on my case? Sooorrrry!

It's against the sites rules to double post, and you've not done it once you've done it a few times and you've been asked before.

 

[Tornado]

Again, though, all of this U.S, speculation is assuming that TVR can figure out a way to get both the engine emissions certified and the car crash tested. I think TVR's would be cool, but not emissions strangled ones. And selling them only as track cars would be useless, and they can't use the kit car loophole.

 

[Dave A]

Well they're developing a new engine, so it's not like they're using the current one and restricting it's performance. You can rest asured that any TVR's sold in the states will be about as powerful as a TVR sold over here.

 

[ExigeEvan]

How are Lotus' sold in the US? I assume they're part of a dealer network, but not under a lotus name. Would TVR be expected to piggy back on these networks?

 

[Dave A]

Yes, TVR would use specialist dealers to officially sell their cars. They may a some point set up a couple of factory dealers where sales are highest.

 

[Tornado]

They are sold through "universal dealers." For example, the NY Lotus dealer is "Manhattan Motorcars."

 

[YSSMAN]

How are Lotus' sold in the US? I assume they're part of a dealer network, but not under a lotus name. Would TVR be expected to piggy back on these networks?

I belive Lotus Cars USA has a small dealer network, most of the dealers being in major cities across the country. Here in Michigan we would have to either go to Detroit or Chicago to buy one, and the same can be said about the cars being serviced.

...I belive my neighbor's Elise was purchased in Chicago...

EDIT: Yes, most Lotus dealers are usually partnered up with other import car companies. I think the big one in Chicago sells not only Lotus, but also Lamborghini and and a few other makes and models. I belive at one point they were selling Quavale (sp?) Magustas and T-Rexxes as well.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I though as much.

It's teh same as it is over here then, as the nearest dealer to me is coupled with Aston (Makes for some great drive-by drooling!)

 

[Dave A]

You ought to come to Manchester, it's brilliant for car delaerships, we've got all the big ones like Ford, Audi, VW, SEAT, Renault (though this one has an older Renault F1 car in the showroom) etc but we also have a Lamborghini dealer in stockport, a Ferrari/Maserati dealer on Upper brook street in town and there's a specialist dealer called Bauer and Miller in town on Deansgate where they sell all sorts from TVR's to Corvettes to Marcos' to Hummers and classic cars. Theres a Chrysler dealer on Stockport road that nearly always has a Viper in, just the one and it's nearly always the same one, but hey. A Mercedes dealer that had an SLR in, a Jaguar dealer and many more.

 

[ExigeEvan]

You ought to come to Manchester, it's brilliant for car delaerships, we've got all the big ones like Ford, Audi, VW, SEAT, Renault (though this one has an older Renault F1 car in the showroom) etc but we also have a Lamborghini dealer in stockport, a Ferrari/Maserati dealer on Upper brook street in town and there's a specialist dealer called Bauer and Miller in town on Deansgate where they sell all sorts from TVR's to Corvettes to Marcos' to Hummers and classic cars. Theres a Chrysler dealer on Stockport road that nearly always has a Viper in, just the one and it's nearly always the same one, but hey. A Mercedes dealer that had an SLR in, a Jaguar dealer and many more.

In my immediate area, 10 minutes drive, there's a corvette/chrysler dealer, Jaguar dealer and Land Rover dealers.

Further affield there's the BMW dealers and Honda. There's also a small dealer that sells/sold Hummers, Ferraris new and old, porsches, big Mercedes Benzs etc. There's also a Mercedes dealer hidden somewhere but I'm yet to see it.

But it's only in Cardiff we get the big Mercedes dealer and the Aston Martin/Lotus dealer

 

[Dave A]

We used to have a TVR dealer (getting somewaht back on topic) but that closed down in the mid 90's and is now the Manchester model shop, it was only a small showroom about 5 cars in it max.

But it's almost certain that TVR will use an already establish dealer network in America if they make it there.

 

[YSSMAN]

Chances are, TVR will probably team up with Lotus in most dealer networks, atleast thats my best guess...

 

[Dave A]

I don't know how Noble's are sold dealer wise in the US (I know they come in two parts) but in Europe TVR and Noble are close together, they often share dealers even within the UK and Wheeler and Lee had a good relationship with each other, since then Nikolai has also been in touch with Lee and kept good relations with him.

 

[harrytuttle]

No, just because something isn't profitable it doesn't mean they can't afford it. They wern't going to makea profit even if the race car hadn't been dissalowed at LeMans (in fact they would have spent more), but since the whole purpose for the cars existence had been done away with, there was no reason for TVR to continue making the cars at a loss. Porsche make a profit from the Carrera GT, that's the difference.

See, this is where we still don't see things the same way. Porsche had the rug pulled out from under them, and the car had no relative purpose since it would never be seen on the track. Not only did it save them money on not having to go racing, but they turned it all around and made money on the GT. It was a great example of the "ideal Porsche", but they had tons of spending money to fall back on to redesign the car.

TVR was in the same situation. The Speed12 is an "extreme TVR". Turning that car around, as spectacular as it was, and considering the fact that people are still talking about a car that was never really sold, I can't imagine that TVR couldn't have made money off it. Either from direct sales, or from the halo effect. Seriously: making a car that could have put the McLaren F1 to shame years before the Veyron would totally have put TVR on the map globally years ago. It's missed opportunity to me.

I never said it was wrong for you to, I'm just dissagreeing with yours.

Okay, cool.

As for what TVR customers want, up until now they're all European

No they arn't

Official sales are Europe, Russia (essentially Europe, since I don't think Siberia has a crowded TVR showroom), and Japan. I didn't know about Japan until I looked it up, but that seems like mostly European to me. I don't see Japan, king of the Kei-car, having a lion's share of TVR's production on their roads.

Now that doesn't include people like John Travolta, but I'm talking about official sales. I obviously misspoke when I said "all", but you have to admit that seeing a TVR in Kentucky would be like finding a Corvette Z06 in Ireland.

Yep we'll have to wait and see, but apparently they get good press in your magazines.

Which ones? I don't remember seeing a single TVR review in any US magazine (which I assume you're referring to, although I don't read them much) since the early 70's. I do see plenty of good press in UK magazines, though, which is hardly surprising.

This is true, and it's the biggest hurdle TVR have to overcome when it comes to selling in the US, but as YSSMAN say's they will likely be be under 70k USD putting them below the lieks of a Dodge Viper which most TVR's are pretty comparable to, something like the Sagaris might stretch to 80k USD but considering you guys pay that for the Viper the Sagaris would be at a good price at 80k. But by the time TVR goes to the US they will be using a new model range so we'll have to see.

If that's the price range the Sagaris comes in at, then I happily applaud the end of Viper sales. It's about time someone showed the US what a real rough & tumble sports car should be like.

It's against the sites rules to double post, and you've not done it once you've done it a few times and you've been asked before.

To me, "double post" means two of the exact same post, which happened to me just once as far as I can tell. But Famine explained things just fine.

 

[Dave A]

See, this is where we still don't see things the same way. Porsche had the rug pulled out from under them, and the car had no relative purpose since it would never be seen on the track. Not only did it save them money on not having to go racing, but they turned it all around and made money on the GT. It was a great example of the "ideal Porsche", but they had tons of spending money to fall back on to redesign the car.

I will agree that it was a missed opportunity, but at the end of the day, Wheeler didn't like the car, they had deposits, they had working prototypes, one car sold and delivered even when the plug was pulled, the car was finished. It wasn't pulled because they could afford to finish it, at the time of the Speed 12 TVR was on a roll and selling well. There may have been more to it that what Wheeler said, but at the end of the day, the car was finished when the plug was pulled.

TVR was in the same situation. The Speed12 is an "extreme TVR". Turning that car around, as spectacular as it was, and considering the fact that people are still talking about a car that was never really sold, I can't imagine that TVR couldn't have made money off it. Either from direct sales, or from the halo effect. Seriously: making a car that could have put the McLaren F1 to shame years before the Veyron would totally have put TVR on the map globally years ago. It's missed opportunity to me.

The Speed 12 has done it's job as a halo car, as Evo magazine said, to Wheeler the Speed 12 may have been a big mistake, but it did so much for public awareness, even though it never went on sale, it did at a good job.

Official sales are Europe, Russia (essentially Europe, since I don't think Siberia has a crowded TVR showroom), and Japan. I didn't know about Japan until I looked it up, but that seems like mostly European to me. I don't see Japan, king of the Kei-car, having a lion's share of TVR's production on their roads.

Yes, they are mainly in Europe, Japan is the second biggest market for TVR's after the UK though.

Which ones? I don't remember seeing a single TVR review in any US magazine (which I assume you're referring to, although I don't read them much) since the early 70's. I do see plenty of good press in UK magazines, though, which is hardly surprising.

Well I don't read American car magazines either, but YSSMAN has told me more than once (to which I was suprised about) that many American car magazines like Car and driver, sing TVR's praises and would love to see them in America. But I don't read American car mags myself.

If that's the price range the Sagaris comes in at, then I happily applaud the end of Viper sales. It's about time someone showed the US what a real rough & tumble sports car should be like.

And I applaud your applause.

 

[YSSMAN]

I don't know how Noble's are sold dealer wise in the US (I know they come in two parts) but in Europe TVR and Noble are close together, they often share dealers even within the UK and Wheeler and Lee had a good relationship with each other, since then Nikolai has also been in touch with Lee and kept good relations with him.

There is one Noble dealer, well, I should say "supplier" here in the US. Known as 1g Racing, they import the cars from Europe (or is it South Africa) and sell the cars less engine and transmission. Total pricing on the car can go north of $90K here in the US with the new 3.0L TT Duratec on the M400, and they have yet to announce if they will sell the M15 here in the US.

...But if TVR was to use our kit-car loophole, they could go through 1g Racing given their ties to Noble.

 

[Tornado]

...But if TVR was to use our kit-car loophole, they could go through 1g Racing given their ties to Noble.

TVR can not use the kit car loophole. None of their cars meet the regulations for it.

 

[Dave A]

How so? I know TVR wern't planning on using it, but not the reason why, wha's different between a TVR and a Noble that makes the Noble eligable and the TVR not so?

I'm not questioning you btw, I simply do not know.

 

[Tornado]

TVR makes their own engines, and the way I understand the regulations the engine has to be based on an engine that is emissions certified in some form in America (it might also have to be an engine used by another manafacturer, for example being purchased form another company, but I'm not sure about this part). The Duratec in the Noble is. If TVR can get the engine emissions certified, they can probably use it. However, there is a limit on the numbers of cars that can be sold through it. Funnily enough, if they still used the Rover V8 they theoretically have imported TVR's under the kit car waver.

 

[Dave A]

The Rover V8 isn't a modern enough engine, it couldn't provide the performance and reliability at high tune, of the AJP6, or the performance of the AJP8.

 

[Tornado]

But I believe it would have gotten through the loophole because of it's design ancestry with the GM 3800 V6.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, you could go to Europe and buy one and have it brought to the United States. But I belive it could only be certified as a track car, not as a street car, which would be silly. But then when you think about it, how are they going to know if is legal or not when you are driving it down the road?

...I know Travolta has the SpeedSix from Swordfish, as it is one of the very few modern TVRs in the US, but I seem to recall him saying it wasn't road legal...

 

[Danny]

Can't you just live without it?

 

[Scaff]

...I know Travolta has the SpeedSix from Swordfish, as it is one of the very few modern TVRs in the US, but I seem to recall him saying it wasn't road legal...

Off topic I know, but who can tell me the very big and silly error in the TVR bit from Swordfish (and no its not that the car starts first time and doesn't break down).

Answers on a postcar (alright just posted up here).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Danny]

In one of the scenes the speedometer is at nought whilst being driven at speed.