TVR to build new "Speed 12"

  • Thread starter Dave A
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Yes, but the cars are still light and just about all of that is part of an options list.

2 Great examples....
As part of the touring pack you get um... Noise Insulation panelling... But even better, in the Super touring pack you get a cup holder! A fricking cup holder!

And I would like TVR to follow Lotus' lead.

TVR make their own engines. That is their speciality.

I think theyre current engine is based off a rover unit, and is a unreliable one at that, and not exactly class leading. TVR is more likely to hire the likes of cosworth to develop a engine.

Do you know how hard it is to build up a large enough customer base to produce 15,000 cars a year? Not only that, but the manufacturing process is much more complicated, the retail side is more complicated and export is essential, especially to America.

Did you take a Technology subject in school?

I took a GNVQ I.C.T, but not any engineering subjects. Im not saying TVR should aim to sell that number overnight, but over a decade or two.

But the Atom doesn't have a roof (or sides, or windscreen or much of any bodywork really) and is quite unbearable on normal road, especially the motorway

I would get a trailer if I was to buy a atom.
 
Poverty
And I would like TVR to follow Lotus' lead.



I think theyre current engine is based off a rover unit, and is a unreliable one at that, and not exactly class leading. TVR is more likely to hire the likes of cosworth to develop a engine.



I took a GNVQ I.C.T, but not any engineering subjects. Im not saying TVR should aim to sell that number overnight, but over a decade or two.



I would get a trailer if I was to buy a atom.
The old Rover one was the old V8, which is not used anymore.
 
Poverty
I think theyre current engine is based off a rover unit, and is a unreliable one at that, and not exactly class leading. TVR is more likely to hire the likes of cosworth to develop a engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVR_Speed_Six_engine

I took a GNVQ I.C.T, but not any engineering subjects. Im not saying TVR should aim to sell that number overnight, but over a decade or two.
20 years is a long tiem for planning. And as you've mentioned before, economical problems can arise in that time.

I would get a trailer if I was to buy a atom.
And then something to to it with. So then you'd end up with a probably fairly dull daily car (Unless you could afford a BMW 525, Audi A6 etc) and would be dependant on how often you can get to a track.

Famine's brother does it, but if he lives near Famine, I think he has a fair selection of tracks to choose from.
 
A mini cooper could probably tow the atom. Id use an A3 though.

I just think that TVR should make a model thats more appealing to the masses, a british 911 but for 2/3 the price and double the performance, and offer airbags, comfortable chairs, a good soundsytem, abs and traction control.

TVR's have most things down, but its just these tiny details that put them out of reach for average car enthusiast joe bloggs. The tuscan is one of the best sounding cars on the road.
 
Poverty
A mini cooper could probably tow the atom. Id use an A3 though.

I just think that TVR should make a model thats more appealing to the masses, a british 911 but for 2/3 the price and double the performance, and offer airbags, comfortable chairs, a good soundsytem, abs and traction control.

TVR's have most things down, but its just these tiny details that put them out of reach for average car enthusiast joe bloggs. The tuscan is one of the best sounding cars on the road.

Why are you once again wishing for things that current TVRs have? The sound system options on many models are excellent and the seats extremely comfortable and supportive.

In regard to ABS, Airbags, Traction Control, etc is that by fitting these to a TVR you risk alienating the current, very loyal, customer base. Not a great idea, and not one that is proven as far as getting current Porsche owners into TVRs.

That said TVR themselves have said that they will need to fit at least airbags and ABS in future, but to add traction control and/or stability control would certainly remove a great deal of what makes a TVR. They are not meant to be cars that can be driven hard with ease, part of a TVR being a TVR is the raw edge they have.

In regard to the engine range, the current in-house range has nothing to do with Rover, and the Rover engine that was used on previous cars was certainly not an unreliable unit, the (American) engine was a strong unit with great tuning potential. It was the early TVR designed units that had major reliability issues. TVR themselves have said that in future they may well start outsourcing engines. As the design, development and manufacturing costs are huge.

TVR have a very difficult task ahead, as they have to improve the build quality and reliability of the cars, while expanding the customer base and not turning off existing owners.

Not easy.

Regards

Scaff
 
Poverty, you don't seem to know much about TVR's, the AJP6 and AJP8 engines were scratch built, the last Rover V8 engioned TVR was the Chimera, the Cerbera used the AJP8 and the Tuscan and models since have used the AJP6, the TVR Speed 12 ran two AJP6's mated together. No the engine isn't unreliable. As it stands infact, the engine is infact probably the most reliable part of a TVR. eliability has been becoming less of an issue quite rapidly over the last two years, the fit of the trim hasn't improved so.

Regarding units built, no TVR should not aim for 15k models, most certainly not. First of all a TVR isn't designed to appeal to 15k genuine prospective buyers, and secondly the sheer costs involved in producing that many numbers would not be possible for them in Lancashire they'd have to scrap their factory and their head office that they're having done right now and theyd have to get rid of thier highly respected workforce, including the 70 people they've just re-hired back into the company. Then they'd have to train up an entirely new force (likely overseas) and then hope to god that they can sell 15ki models because if they can't, THEN they're out of business.

Smolenski has already stated, he aims to sell 5000 cars a year, and no more. He wants TVR to remain exclusive, but I guess exclusivity means nothing to you, but it does to a lot of people. Most of what you said would propbably lower TVR sales, TVR's sales rest on a customer base that is often repeat buyers, the Cerbera buyer that upgraded to a Tuscan, who will probably get one of the next line of TVR's whent hey come out. The reliability can still improve, but it's not been as bad as people think recently. The buld quality is what's keeping people thinking that.


Regarding outsourcing engines, they have said they want to outsource a V8 for the Cerbera replacment rather than develop a new one themselves, but they are developing a new speed six engine inhouse. They have hired Ricardo to work on their engines to make them compliant for emissions over seas amongst other things.

poverty
TVR's have most things down, but its just these tiny details that put them out of reach for average car enthusiast joe bloggs. The tuscan is one of the best sounding cars on the road.
You know what, TVR don't care, nor should they. They don't produce enough models to care, nor do they plan on doing so and alienating their current and proven fan base that they have.

If TVR werent looking to make alot more sales they wouldnt have 4 different models.
They have two model ranges, the T lineup and the Tuscan lineup. And yes, they are lookign to make alot more sales, but nothing close to thoes of Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini.

Shall we say theyre commercial then, going by their lineup?
No they're specialist.

If TVR had more money, they could spend more time devoloping theyre cars and improving them all round, instead of letting the customers being theyre guinea pigs.
In what way are they're customers being they're guiniea pigs? The fact theres been no engine failures in the last 4 months is a simple fact, a fact that proves that their engines arn't that unrelaible, they didn't build the engine then sell it and say "let us know if it breaks down", they tested it. Like all manufacturers they still run statistics to see how well that testing has proven to be in the real world use of their cars, a company like GM or Ford would go nuts if they could say that they had zero engine failures under warranty in the last 4 months, it'd hit the headlines. And TVR has money, a lot of it, Nikolai smolenski's money.

Is the russian owner a real car enthusiast? What cars does he own? Does he like going on track days? I think TVR should aim for 15k a year, or whatever number 911's porsche sells. Im more likely to see Ferrari's porsches and lambos than a TVR which saddens me. I would like to see alot more TVR's on our roads.
Yes he is, he drives a TVR and did before he bought the company. He had a Tuscan shipped to Russia, he also bought a T350C the day before he bought TVR, he told the salesman he was going to buy TVR tomorrow and the salesman didn't believe him, Wheelre rang him the next day and said "I belive you've met your new boss" or something to that extent. But yes, Smolenski is an enthusiast and he says he's liked TVR for years and liked what they stand for, which is even better.

I doubt that would ever happen, untill TVR became a class leader in some part of automotive engineer. Porsche, Lotus and cosworth do what you propose successfully, but they have a excellent motorsport record. TVR's reliability issues alone would put huge companies that contract the likes of Lotus off.
They are already world renowned for their engines, yes thats true. Their AJP6 has won plenty of awards and been hailed as one of the best sportscar engines ever. The AJP8 was hailed as great, but over stressed, which affected reliability, and don't think the AJP8 and AJP6 are the same enigne with 2 cylinders added/taken away, they were two completely different engines. The A, J and P were the designers initials thats all.

I just think that TVR should make a model thats more appealing to the masses, a british 911 but for 2/3 the price and double the performance, and offer airbags, comfortable chairs, a good soundsytem, abs and traction control.
Like Scaff said, and alienate their fan bgase, yeah right. The 911 buyer will most likely still be the 911 buyer if TR does that, but the TR buyer will no longer be the TR buyer. Now you have a problem, you have a car that's trying to take sales away from the 911, a feat that no car has managed to do to any notable effect and at the same time your putting off the people that bought and loved your cars for what they were before. Thats bad, very bad. As it stands, TVR are recieving more interest that EVER before.
 
Scaff
In regard to the engine range, the current in-house range has nothing to do with Rover, and the Rover engine that was used on previous cars was certainly not an unreliable unit, the (American) engine was a strong unit with great tuning potential. It was the early TVR designed units that had major reliability issues. TVR themselves have said that in future they may well start outsourcing engines. As the design, development and manufacturing costs are huge.

I'm pretty sure that it was an all aluminium V8 cast off from Chevrolet. Rover picked up the designs and made it work. I'm pretty sure they used to use them in the old Tuscan racing series.

Also gee I would totally love TVR to start making overweight cars with side impact airbags, traction control, stability control, throttle by wire, active front steering, sat nav and hey why dont we just have the cars drive themselves! Also lets soundproof the interior, I mean nobody wants to hear that fantastic straight 6 howling!
 
I'm pretty sure that it was an all aluminium V8 cast off from Chevrolet. Rover picked up the designs and made it work. I'm pretty sure they used to use them in the old Tuscan racing series.
Yep, that's the Rover V8, I'm not sure if you're implying otherwise or just smaking a statemnt regarding it, but it has nothing to do with TVR's current inhouse engines ie the AJP6's or the older AJP8's that passed on with the Cerbera.
 
live4speed
Yep, that's the Rover V8, I'm not sure if you're implying otherwise or just smaking a statemnt regarding it, but it has nothing to do with TVR's current inhouse engines ie the AJP6's or the older AJP8's that passed on with the Cerbera.

The AJP8 is the 4.2 or 4.5 V8 engine right? Also what about the Griffith 500?
 
The AJP8 is a flat plane crank, 4.2 or 4.5 V8 that powered the TVR Cerbera only. The AJP was avaialble in 4185cc or 4475cc capacities. The TVR tuned Rover V8 that powered the Griffith and other models was a different engine to the AJP, the Rover V8 was avaialble in 3948 cc, 4280 cc, 4495 cc and 4988 cc capacities and was not a falt plane crank engine. They didn't share any components at all, they were two completley different engines.
 
...wow, I'm totally lost...

On the Rover V8, it shared it's design with an early aluminum Buick engine, of which it's design was partially spun-off that of the Chevrolet. It is a loose tie, kinda like those Kevin Bacon things...
 
Yeah that's right, the Rover V8 used the same block as the early Buick V8, TVR used to use Rover V8's in their cars (though highly tuned), but in the 90's they built the AJP8 speed eight engine which was completley new and used that in the Cerbera, they soon after developed the AJP6 which they also used in a model of the Cerbera and arguably the best of the range. Once the Chimera and Griffith ended production there was no more Rover V8's in the TVR lineup.
 
...The lack of a V8 is appealing to me, IMO. Those I6s are impressive, especially when compared to some of the monster V8s and V10s in their class. Kudos to them in most circumstances, and I continue to cross my fingers that they eventually ship a few T350Cs and Tamoras to the US.
 
It's too late for the Tamora, it will be the first of the current lineup to be discontinued, Possibly not being put back into production when the new factory opens. It's the lowest selling TVR by a bit too much of a margin since the T350 came out.
 
live4speed
Yeah that's right, the Rover V8 used the same block as the early Buick V8, TVR used to use Rover V8's in their cars (though highly tuned), but in the 90's they built the AJP8 speed eight engine which was completley new and used that in the Cerbera, they soon after developed the AJP6 which they also used in a model of the Cerbera and arguably the best of the range. Once the Chimera and Griffith ended production there was no more Rover V8's in the TVR lineup.

Makes sense I suppose, I always forget that at the time Buick wasn't a part of Chevrolet.

Still I must own a Griffith 500 say in the next 5 years.
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A fine car, you can pick them up for good prices these days too. One of the finest looking cars ever made imo, easilly the best looking TVR ever.
 
YSSMAN
Kudos to them in most circumstances, and I continue to cross my fingers that they eventually ship a few T350Cs and Tamoras to the US.
It must be said since the arguement about airbags between Poverty and everyone else, but no TVR will ever be sold in this country unless it has airbags. Period.
 
I'd buy a sports car without airbags. My last car didn't have them and I came out allright in my big wreck (head-on with a late-model Chevy Cavalier in my VW Fox). Granted in most circumstances it would be nice to have an airbag, but if they can use the kit-car loophole, they don't need them.

Noble seems to be selling plenty of M12s and M400s without them...
 
YSSMAN
I'd buy a sports car without airbags. My last car didn't have them and I came out allright in my big wreck (head-on with a late-model Chevy Cavalier in my VW Fox). Granted in most circumstances it would be nice to have an airbag, but if they can use the kit-car loophole, they don't need them. Noble seems to be selling plenty of M12s and M400s without them...
You misunderstand. It's not that people wouldn't buy them. It's that people couldn't buy them because they wouldn't be allowed to be sold here unless TVR uses the kit-car status (which I'm not even entirely sure they could use anyways, mostly due to the way the regulations are) that Noble uses.
 
YSSMAN
...And thats the way it SHOULD be with most sports cars, IMO. The days have long-past when most automakers could get away with things such as that. I almost bought a '78 Pontiac Firebird for my first car that had niether a radio nor A/C, as it was origionally built for drag and circuit racers to be easy to modify for racing. Wouldn't fly today though, especially with American buyers. Quite frankly, I'm surprised by how well the Elise and Exige have been selling given the lack of their creature comforts, but I believe now that has become a selling point.

I think the Elise/Exige has *just* enough comforts to be acceptable. The fact that it's far enough removed from the Esprit (and its perceived reliability issues) helps a lot, too. If Porsche does indeed release a 4-door and a hot-hatch, then TVR's timing couldn't be better. All the purists who want a car that's actually dangerous to drive (unless you have sufficient skill) will have an entire dealership to play around in.
 
Poverty
No what Im saying is that TVR should make options available so theyre cars are more everyday friendly, for people like me and thousands others, and hence make more sales.


Absolutely. Specialist car companies (from Porsche & Ferrari to Ariel & Caterham) do not survive on real enthusiasts, but on the posers with more money than real driving aspirations. It's a shame, but at least the Boxster et. al. kept Porsche alive long enough to deliver three excellent GT3(RS)'s and the delightful -- if way out of reach -- Carrera GT.

Sad to say it, but you sort of have to sell out and pander to the lowest common denominator to make sure you have enough capital to do the projects you really want to do. Sticking to close to your ideals usually ends up with bankruptcy.
 
Poverty
Doesnt lotus offer airbags, a/c, electric windows, abs and a nice soundsytem?

You're presuming it's good just because it's there? It's actually quite rubbish.

2007 models are expected to have better door speakers and deck.
 
I wouldn't want them in my Lotus if I odered one. If I really needed a "sound-system" I'd bring along my iPod. My neighbor has a blue Elise, and I can't ever recall hearing his radio on when he drove by, and he ALWAYS has the top taken off.

BTW: The first time I herd the car go by, I was quite surprised by the sounds it made...
 
The Lotus Stage II exhaust is quite amazing, so I hear*. The aftermarket options, Arqray, Quicksilver etc, are also very popular.

*Pun fully intended
 
The first time he drove by I thought it was my other neighbor who has an old 911. Of course, I was in my house, so it was a little strange. Then the other night I had my windows open on the way home from work (about 10PM) and we met eachother by the light next to the middle-school, each of us going the opposite directions. Although his idle wasn't particularly loud, he took off in a hurry, and I was really quite surprised...
 
Toronado
It must be said since the arguement about airbags between Poverty and everyone else, but no TVR will ever be sold in this country unless it has airbags. Period.
Airbags yes, they would have to be on American models, but that's not the point everyones arguing against. TVR don't need to pander to the masses to be successful becuse they're never going to produce enough models to need to try and sell to the masses. They're aim is to build 5000 models a year and no more, and that's model that will be sold globally. You seem to think everyone has been singling out airbags in response to Poverty, well they haven't, weather tey agree with them or not, they haven't.

Absolutely. Specialist car companies (from Porsche & Ferrari to Ariel & Caterham) do not survive on real enthusiasts, but on the posers with more money than real driving aspirations. It's a shame, but at least the Boxster et. al. kept Porsche alive long enough to deliver three excellent GT3(RS)'s and the delightful -- if way out of reach -- Carrera GT.

Sad to say it, but you sort of have to sell out and pander to the lowest common denominator to make sure you have enough capital to do the projects you really want to do. Sticking to close to your ideals usually ends up with bankruptcy.
TVR's are a hell of a lot cheaper than Porsches and Ferrari's, theyre a hell of a lot rarer too, even in England and they will always be. They don't need to pander to people because they'kll never build and sell enough cars to have to.
 
harrytuttle
Absolutely. Specialist car companies (from Porsche & Ferrari to Ariel & Caterham) do not survive on real enthusiasts, but on the posers with more money than real driving aspirations. It's a shame, but at least the Boxster et. al. kept Porsche alive long enough to deliver three excellent GT3(RS)'s and the delightful -- if way out of reach -- Carrera GT.

Sad to say it, but you sort of have to sell out and pander to the lowest common denominator to make sure you have enough capital to do the projects you really want to do. Sticking to close to your ideals usually ends up with bankruptcy.
Whiel I would agree that Ferrari, Porsche and other do not survive on real car enthusiasts, rather the majority of the cars they sell are to people who want the association with the marque. However they also do not develop or design the vast majority of these cars for that audience, rather they still develop cars for the enthusiast, its just not the true enthusiast that buy the bulk of them. This does then allow these companies to develop cars that appeal specifically to the hardcore fan.

In regard to Ariel & Catherham are however not correct, these cars are so uncomprimising in approach and outlook that no poser is going to invest in them. Manufacturers of this nature do survive on the enthusiast, without exception every single owner of a car of this type I have spoken to was an out and out petrolhead.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
*Snip*
In regard to Ariel & Catherham are however not correct, these cars are so uncomprimising in approach and outlook that no poser is going to invest in them. Manufacturers of this nature do survive on the enthusiast, without exception every single owner of a car of this type I have spoken to was an out and out petrolhead.

Regards

Scaff

What, you couldn't do a shopping run?
2003_atom-2_1.jpg
 
You could use the passenger seat and strap you shopping bag in :lol:.
 
Scaff
Whiel I would agree that Ferrari, Porsche and other do not survive on real car enthusiasts, rather the majority of the cars they sell are to people who want the association with the marque. However they also do not develop or design the vast majority of these cars for that audience, rather they still develop cars for the enthusiast, its just not the true enthusiast that buy the bulk of them. This does then allow these companies to develop cars that appeal specifically to the hardcore fan.

If TVR is trying to "restrict" production to 5,000 ("more than double TVR's peak"), then they are expecting some high demand, somewhere along the lines of Aston Martin or at least Lamborghini. That means, in the US market, that there will be cars and/or options that will be considered a "sellout" by TVR true believers. Something to dilute the hardcore nature of TVR.

The way TVR has survived until now (true enthusiasts) is not the way Smolenski wants TVR to survive in the future. By definition, such an increase in sales would require "broadening TVR's horizons". TVR is not rolling in money the way Porsche is, but they want to be (who wouldn't?). To follow Porsche's strategy of making a Boxster or >shudder< a Cayenne, that would give them more than enough capital to properly develop their Speed12 v2. Given the expected -- and denied -- released of the last Speed12, combined with Smolenski's need to make TVR as reliable as a Lexus, that will take mucha mucha money.

Scaff
In regard to Ariel & Catherham are however not correct, these cars are so uncomprimising in approach and outlook that no poser is going to invest in them. Manufacturers of this nature do survive on the enthusiast, without exception every single owner of a car of this type I have spoken to was an out and out petrolhead.

Apparently, you haven't seen Ja Rule's garage.... Or anyone else with more money than brains who buys $30,000 toys on a whim, drives their R500 Evo once in a while, sends it into the hedges, and goes back to get an Atom.

Haven't we been through this with Prince Nasseem and his SLR-McLaren? Or the Swede(?) and his Enzo? You don't think the not-so-rich are buying not-so-expensive go-fast toys?
 
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