Ultimate drivers car of all time

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there are some fantastic four-cylinder noises out there.
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A high revving 4-AG sounds amazing...
Plus, the AE86 is a pretty good drivers car as well.

Edit: Considering that the McLaren F1 was built to the highest standards, and that they used the NSX as the standard, I'm going back to my original choice of the NSX Type-R.
 
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the Ferrari F40 yet, that one usually gets into most best car threads. :lol: (not my opinion on the best driver's car, just surprised it hasn't had mention. Never really liked it myself. :indiff:)

Lotus Cortina comes to mind as a great driver's car: carb'd Twin Cam roar, lightweight, handling by Lotus and not so much poke that you can't thrash it legally. :sly: (never driven one sadly though. :()


To be honest, unless you've driven every single car in the world, you can't answer this question. And even then, everyone's opinion will be different. 👍
 
For a driver's car? Well I think it needs to be good at everything because driving is more than just taking comers at high speed. You need to consider usability, comfort and value for the money. I would say either a M3 or M5 fits the bill perfectly.
 
Joey D
For a driver's car? Well I think it needs to be good at everything because driving is more than just taking comers at high speed. You need to consider usability, comfort and value for the money. I would say either a M3 or M5 fits the bill perfectly.
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No, it's "Driver's", not "Driver and his three friends".

:D
 
The thing that arguably started it all:

1885Benz.jpg

Benz Patent-Motorwagen
 
Ultimate Drivers Car is quite a vague term that very much depends on where the individual lives and the type of roads they drive on.

For most people, supercars are out of the question, since they'll have such an excess of grip and performance that will never get tapped. If you can't access the outer reaches of a car's performance envelope, then you just aren't getting the best out of it. A few squirts of massive acceleration might give you a rush of adrenaline, but that's not the be-all and end-all of the driving experience.

Track-focused cars are equally irrelevant as they are too compromised for road use.

I'd nominate something like the 996 and 997 GT3's (non-RS) Lotus Elise/Exige and original Elan. Some of the better hot hatches could maybe be added to the list too.
 
That, to me, is the crux of the issue.

A car can't be the "Ultimate" Driver's Car if you have no opportunity to actually "drive" it... or more precisely, throttle it to within an inch of its life.

An old Miata or even a "warm" hatch is something you could be wringing out at 11/10ths in places where a supercar would be too fast or dangerous to do the same in... leaving you to pootle along in the same at just 7/10ths to prevent Anthony Hamilton levels of embarrassment.
 
TheCracker
Ultimate Drivers Car is quite a vague term that very much depends on where the individual lives and the type of roads they drive on.

For most people, supercars are out of the question, since they'll have such an excess of grip and performance that will never get tapped. If you can't access the outer reaches of a car's performance envelope, then you just aren't getting the best out of it. A few squirts of massive acceleration might give you a rush of adrenaline, but that's not the be-all and end-all of the driving experience.

Track-focused cars are equally irrelevant as they are too compromised for road use.

I'd nominate something like the 996 and 997 GT3's (non-RS) Lotus Elise/Exige and original Elan. Some of the better hot hatches could maybe be added to the list too.
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In the end a drivers cars is one made for sporty use (so there's enough grip, balance, decent chassis and so on) and that makes you feel the road, in control of the car, that every movement you make matters and at the the exact moment you do it. That's why some people think they don't make cars like they used to (Moss for example), no matter the price, and why some are legendary while being cheap (classic minis, Enzo having several for example).

One of the very few exceptions was the nsx. Doesn't matter if the ferrari of the time accelerated faster, it was more of a drivers cars than any of those (with probably the exception of the f40...if someone here has driven one).

edit: The s2000 is a good example too. It'd be an "ultimate drivers cars" if it had better road feedback on the wheel (blame drive by wire, though the first ones weren't perfect on that regard too), if it was lighter (though maintaining the perfect weight distribution it has stock) and slightly tuning the motor. That's why its japanese modifications are praised.
 
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peter_vod69
Ultimate driver's car? Well it has to do a number of things.

First, it has to have satisfying, feelsome controls. Which rules out most things with a flappy paddle gearbox or electric steering. It must sound fantastic, the exhaust note and intake roar must combine to bring a big smile to the face of the driver, so anything with a four cylinder and most things with a v6 are gone. It must have a surfeit of power, but not so much that it is intimidating for the weekend enthusiast (which most of us are). So that eliminates most of the current breed of hypercars, and certainly stuff like the McLaren F1, and it eliminates stuff like the MX5 or S2000. It must handle with precision, immediacy and delicacy, which takes away pretty much all the musclecars (be them German, American, English, Australian etc).

So you know what it is then? The ultimate driver's car? Well, it has a proper manual gearshift, operated through one of motoring's design icons, the milled h-pattern gate. It's small, and compact, so it's nimble. It has enough power to satisfy, but delivered in a sensible, linear fashion (IE not in a big diesely lump or in a turbocharged rush which could be difficult to meter out). It has the kind of engine note that makes you want to go looking for tunnels, or downshifting alongside rock-walls. It comes from one of the most evocative names in the motoring world.

It's the Ferrari 355.
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I read this with clarkson's voice.
 
The Ultimate driver's car for me, the Devil Z, yep, a modified Nissan Fairlady S30 with L28 engine stroked to 3.1 liter, twin turbo and carburetor. Over 600 ps of power, fully stripped interior, racing harness, full roll cage, race coil over suspension, custom gearbox able to reach 360km/h top speed and weight just below 1000kg and no wing.

Now I can imagine smelling the gasoline from the inside while the inline 6 engine screams like mad, building up boost and the wastegate flutter in high pitch as I shifted to the next gear going over 200km/h. Next thing I know, a Porsche 964 Turbo "BlackBird" racing next to me, the ultimate dream race.

I would die smiling if I can do it :D
 
Wouldn't the best drivers car not be street legal?

Or is it best "street legal drivers car?"

Because I find it hard to imagine even cars like the McLaren F1, NSX, E30, or even the Ariel Atom are better drivers cars than a 1980s/1990s F1 or Le Mans car.

Second, I think you would have to define "drivers car" before choosing what is the best. Some people might think a car that excels on both the street and track is a good drivers car (like the 911). Other people might define a good drivers car as a car that is only really good on the track (like an Ariel Atom).
 
Highly subjective question, namely because no one truly searches for the same thing in an automobile.

Anyone can go fast in a straight line, once you're past the trickier part of launching a car, it's the easiest thing to do, and as a result, not very rewarding for a driver. It's attacking corners that is rewarding, finding the best line, hitting the apex, finding the limit of the available grip, and feeling like the only reason why the car is doing all of this is because of your imputs. It's being in an absolute crapbox, on the threshold of grip, going 11/10ths, chasing down something much more expensive and a lot faster, but driven with someone with a lot less confidence in his mount than you. That's the feeling you want, the adrenaline rush. That's what a driver's car is. Something that gives you confidence in your skills and perhaps even help you hone them, something that is exciting to drive, something you feel a part of, and not just some computer doing everything for you.

E30, DC2 Integra-R, Toyota MR-S, NA Miata, Lotus Elise, B13 Sentra SE-R, Rabbit GTi... something like that. Pick your poison, they're all perfect.
 
TVC
Wouldn't the best drivers car not be street legal?

Or is it best "street legal drivers car?"

Because I find it hard to imagine even cars like the McLaren F1, NSX, E30, or even the Ariel Atom are better drivers cars than a 1980s/1990s F1 or Le Mans car.

Second, I think you would have to define "drivers car" before choosing what is the best. Some people might think a car that excels on both the street and track is a good drivers car (like the 911). Other people might define a good drivers car as a car that is only really good on the track (like an Ariel Atom).
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Communication. Unfortunately, while communicativity is a good thing for racecars to have, not all racecars are communicative. Many F1s and LMPs have little in the way of steering feel, and with high levels of grip and little warning before they break-away, they can be quite a handful.
 
For me it has to be the AE86 or the S2000. Both of those cars communicate every little bit of information to the driver. The abudance of the manual transmission (plus all s2ks were 6spd) also helps. The easy, low speed breakaway characteristics of the AE86 make it a blast to drive. Likewise, the S2000's amazingly balanced chassis makes it a quite unique handling machine. Both cars have amazing and eager 4 cylinder engines. The familiar sound of a 20 valve 4A-GE with individual throttle bodies can be identified anywhere. The screaming, VTEC engaging F20C is one of the most advanced and ahead-of-its-time inline 4 engines ever assembled.

These two cars represent the pinnacle of driver enjoyment, fun, and learning of their respective eras. Only God knows if I'll ever drive either :dunce::cheers:
 
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Honestly, it would have to be a Miata or RX-7. I used to own a Miata, and I had the pleasure of driving a clean FD RX-7. To me, nothing can top that experience. The car told you everything and was a hoot to drive. Just my .02
 
SpartanG
These two cars represent the pinnacle of driver enjoyment, fun, and learning of their respective eras. Only God knows if I'll ever drive either :dunce::cheers:
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Wait, so you've made that decision based on not driving either?... ;)
 
-> In my opinion an excellent drivers car needn't rely on just numbers on paper alone, but the overall euphoria of its driving dynamics. Sure, people might be subjective on this front but to each his own. I'll post my list later.
 
-Fred-
E30, DC2 Integra-R, Toyota MR-S, NA Miata, Lotus Elise, B13 Sentra SE-R, Rabbit GTi... something like that. Pick your poison, they're all perfect.
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E30? Yeah maybe in some ways, but too slow these days.
DC2 Teg? Again, not fast enough
Toyota MR-S? HAHAHAHA!!! It's just a hairdresser's car which had the engine installed in the wrong spot.
Miata? Slow, and has one or two iffy characteristics (floppy suspension, open diff, low power)
Lotus Elise? Hmm, yeah, I suppose, but perhaps too compromised?
Sentra SE-R? It only mattered in a small segment of the North American market, so no.
Rabbit GTi? Slightly inert steering, not interesting enough.
 
peter_vod69
E30? Yeah maybe in some ways, but too slow these days.
DC2 Teg? Again, not fast enough
Toyota MR-S? HAHAHAHA!!! It's just a hairdresser's car which had the engine installed in the wrong spot.
Miata? Slow, and has one or two iffy characteristics (floppy suspension, open diff, low power)
Lotus Elise? Hmm, yeah, I suppose, but perhaps too compromised?
Sentra SE-R? It only mattered in a small segment of the North American market, so no.
Rabbit GTi? Slightly inert steering, not interesting enough.
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Quick question - have you ever driven one of these cars?

Cause I've driven them all and understand exactly why they were mentioned. Not to mention the most enjoyable car I've thrashed on twisty roads was an MR-S.
 
What does any of that have to do with a car being a "Driver's Car"?

Fast or slow are meaningless conventions. A Miata at 60 mph is infinitely more involving than a 747 at 600.

The "Hairdresser's Car" image means little for how a car drives. If we're going by stereotypes, most "sportscars" are driven either by gold-chain wearing poseurs or baliding hedge fund managers who crash them into trees... Doesn't make them any less or more good.

The SE-R was limited to a small market, does that make it drive any worse? Did that make the Clio Williams drive any worse? Did that make the original Focus RS any worse?

Of all the criticisms, I'd only agree with the Rabbit and Miata. For the Miata, I don't think it matters much... None of those traits hinder communication or involvement. For the Rabbit... Well, it's a product of its era.
 
I had the most and best fun in a 1989 Subaru Mini Jumbo. 700cc 2 cylinder powerhouse. Unbreakable little car.
 
Azuremen
Quick question - have you ever driven one of these cars?

Cause I've driven them all and understand exactly why they were mentioned. Not to mention the most enjoyable car I've thrashed on twisty roads was an MR-S.
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niky
What does any of that have to do with a car being a "Driver's Car"?

Fast or slow are meaningless conventions. A Miata at 60 mph is infinitely more involving than a 747 at 600.

The "Hairdresser's Car" image means little for how a car drives. If we're going by stereotypes, most "sportscars" are driven either by gold-chain wearing poseurs or baliding hedge fund managers who crash them into trees... Doesn't make them any less or more good.

The SE-R was limited to a small market, does that make it drive any worse? Did that make the Clio Williams drive any worse? Did that make the original Focus RS any worse?

Of all the criticisms, I'd only agree with the Rabbit and Miata. For the Miata, I don't think it matters much... None of those traits hinder communication or involvement. For the Rabbit... Well, it's a product of its era.
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The point of the thread is "Ultimate Driver's Car". Not "Cars that are reasonably fun" or "cars that punched above their weight". Power is far more important than you are suggesting. More than anything else, power is what adrenalises the driving experience; without a decent engine you missing a crucial part of the equation.

I've driven the Integra, the Miata (wife owns one), the Rabbit (in Golf guise) and the MRS. I've had much more fun in my own Evo 7 on a twisty road than in any of these and I'd hesitate to recommend it as the "ultimate driver's car". On the Miata/MX5 - I'm almost convinced the reason the MX5 got the reputation it did was that it was a convertible that was cheap, fun, relatively feelsome and reliable, in a market where those qualities had never previously been combined. The MRS was just Toyota's not-quite-as-good attempt at making a similar thing.

I haven't driven a Ferrari 355, but I'd bet a significant number of whatever currency you'd care to name that it ticks more of the boxes than any of the cars in that list.
 
Power is important, however it is mainly a distraction that keeps the weaknesses in the overall handling hidden as the person is mostly focused on how fun having all that horsepower is. The ultimate drivers car should be absolutely enjoyable without the need for tons of power, it should be fun just because it just drives THAT GREAT and nothing else. My trans am has more than enough power to keep my hands full which distracts me from the bad steering and a chassis that flexes like plywood. Is it absolutely a blast to drive? oh yea. Is it a great drivers car? not really. See the difference?
 
peter_vod69
The point of the thread is "Ultimate Driver's Car". Not "Cars that are reasonably fun" or "cars that punched above their weight". Power is far more important than you are suggesting. More than anything else, power is what adrenalises the driving experience; without a decent engine you missing a crucial part of the equation.

I've driven the Integra, the Miata (wife owns one), the Rabbit (in Golf guise) and the MRS. I've had much more fun in my own Evo 7 on a twisty road than in any of these and I'd hesitate to recommend it as the "ultimate driver's car". On the Miata/MX5 - I'm almost convinced the reason the MX5 got the reputation it did was that it was a convertible that was cheap, fun, relatively feelsome and reliable, in a market where those qualities had never previously been combined. The MRS was just Toyota's not-quite-as-good attempt at making a similar thing.

I haven't driven a Ferrari 355, but I'd bet a significant number of whatever currency you'd care to name that it ticks more of the boxes than any of the cars in that list.
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Power is not everything to me. When I drove the Integra DC5, I found the power acceptable, but the feel definitely lacking. This is mostly because I'm used to Mazdas, and my Protege has a shedload more feel than the Integra.

The Miata... depends what variant you drove and in what situation. I've driven the original, and I've driven both generations of NC (the current). The first NC was bollocks. The second NC was pretty good. Snap-away is a bit more abrupt due to the higher grip, but it's one that you can hold more angle in for longer, if you so desire, and they managed to put feel back into the steering... thankfully. A facelifted NC is still an excellent car, even if the GT86 is knocking on its door.

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The original NA? No power. Long-ish steering (compared to modern sports cars and sports sedans) No brakes. No chassis rigidity. It's absolutely wonderful for all those reasons. You can push and push and push and when it lets go, it lets go when and where you want it to. Even with the loose chassis and steering and brakes, you feel a very deep connection with the car. Lovely to drive even if it's as slow as a government. I fell in love the first time I drove it. Had a friend who bought an NA. He didn't like driving it all that much and disagreed with me rather verbosely about how well it communicated.

A week later, he called back and apologized. He'd finally tuned in. Nowadays, we take for granted that sportscars must be razor sharp, with 2 turns of steering, brakes like anchors and gearboxes like finely-wound tourbillions. Once he got past that prejudice, he finally got it.

Perhaps not ultimate. Too safe for some. Too slow for others. But arguably, it should be on everyone's top ten list.

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The EVO7... perhaps aside from steering feel, is probably close. A very "immediate" car, and that's part of what being a driver's car is all about.

Personally, I don't assume faster cars make better driver's cars... because I've driven a few and they really aren't. I want my driver's car to allow me to explore its entire performance envelope with no nasty surprises. I've been in some 300-500 hp cars that while fast and entertaining, I would not describe as "driver's cars", and I've been in some cars with 1/5th the horsepower that I wouldn't hesitate to apply the label to.

Then again... nothing quite comes close to a go-kart...
 
Speed and power don't make the ultimate drivers car, for me handling and feedback are about the most important factors and power is very low priority in the decision. The ultimate drivers car for me would have to be fun to drive more than anything.
I can have as much fun driving a 1.3 liter FF family sedan, as a WRX impreza, which makes it very difficult for me to decide what the ultimate drivers car should be.
I'm not qualified to make that decision as I haven't driven every car of all time. I have driven a lot of cars, but not enough to make the decision of the ultimate drivers car of all time. Also for me the ultimate drivers car has to be able to be persuaded to over steer, a car that mostly under steers would never be considered as the ultimate drivers car for me.
 
niky
The original NA? No power. Long-ish steering (compared to modern sports cars and sports sedans) No brakes. No chassis rigidity. It's absolutely wonderful for all those reasons. You can push and push and push and when it lets go, it lets go when and where you want it to. Even with the loose chassis and steering and brakes, you feel a very deep connection with the car. Lovely to drive even if it's as slow as a government. I fell in love the first time I drove it. Had a friend who bought an NA. He didn't like driving it all that much and disagreed with me rather verbosely about how well it communicated.
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I find it's the complete opposite, apart from it being predictably slow of course. Mind you my sister's Eunos has coilovers, factory LSD, etc. but I find the wonderfully quick steering and darty handling is why I love driving it so much. However I don't love the MX-5. Being beautiful to steer is one thing. Being the whole package is another. So as far as driver's cars go, the MX-5 is right up there. But I wouldn't want to own one, or at least not a bog-standard NA. I'd go the NB MazdaSpeed (or SP as it's known here).
 
One could make a decent argument for whoever Road and Track picked for the 2011 or 2012 driver's car...

That'd be the Ferrari Italia and Porsche 911.
 

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